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  • Originally posted by Meh Gerbil View Post
    That is why Trout is my friend.
    He beat you up?

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
      Your belief is incorrect. Study after study after study, going back decades, some of which I have cited in this thread, show that homosexuals are a generally miserable lot regardless of the social landscape. But this is hardly surprising, because it's exactly what you would expect from a group of people with an untreated mental illness.
      You claimed they were "still just as miserable" as they were before the social victories of the last few decades. So show me proof of that. Can you point to studies that show no decrease in the rate of suicide or depression, for example?

      Stupid analogy. A better analogy would be to compare the diets and lifestyles of those with diabetes and those without. In other words, taking insulin is not the cause of diabetes while homosexuality and its associated activities are directly responsible for the poor physical, emotional, and psychological health of homosexuals.
      You're missing my point. Comparing heterosexuals with homosexuals in terms of health is erroneous because homosexuals do not have the option of being a heterosexual. So their choices are either to engage upon homosexual activities or to abstain entirely, and it is the latter you are advocating. Comparing these two categories is the critical point (preferably with the first category subdivided into several different, e.g. whether they engage in active sexual relations and which kinds they do). Do you have data comparing these categories and their rates of various illnesses, physical or mental?

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Terraceth View Post
        You claimed they were "still just as miserable" as they were before the social victories of the last few decades. So show me proof of that. Can you point to studies that show no decrease in the rate of suicide or depression, for example?

        You're missing my point. Comparing heterosexuals with homosexuals in terms of health is erroneous because homosexuals do not have the option of being a heterosexual. So their choices are either to engage upon homosexual activities or to abstain entirely, and it is the latter you are advocating. Comparing these two categories is the critical point (preferably with the first category subdivided into several different, e.g. whether they engage in active sexual relations and which kinds they do). Do you have data comparing these categories and their rates of various illnesses, physical or mental?
        Read the studies, dude. I see no reason to conclude that so-called "social progress" has had any appreciable positive affect on the mental well-being of homosexuals.

        And, no, comparing the overall health and well-being of homosexuals with heterosexuals is not erroneous just because it leads to a conclusion that you don't like.
        Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
        But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
        Than a fool in the eyes of God


        From "Fools Gold" by Petra

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
          I see no reason to conclude that so-called "social progress" has had any appreciable positive affect on the mental well-being of homosexuals.
          Yeah, why would being bullied less at school, receiving less name-calling and less social ostracism, and not being kicked out of home by your parents, and having friends and family be supportive of your relationships rather than criticizing you for them, have any positive effects whatsoever on a person's mental well-being? This is pretty hard stuff to work out MM, I can see why your brain just can't cope with the difficult ideas.

          And, no, comparing the overall health and well-being of homosexuals with heterosexuals is not erroneous just because it leads to a conclusion that you don't like.
          I can show you all kinds of health statistics from the US that show that black people have worse health outcomes than white people there. So is the lesson from that "don't be black"? Because that seems the kind of nonsensical statement you are making with regard to gay people.
          "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
          "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
          "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
            Read the studies, dude. I see no reason to conclude that so-called "social progress" has had any appreciable positive affect on the mental well-being of homosexuals.
            Your claim is that despite social advances or whatever you want to call it, they're still no less miserable, pointing to evidence of increased rates of suicide and depression, and use that to defend the claim that increased social advances wouldn't fix the problem.

            The problem with that is that there's still a lot of societal stigma against homosexuality (even if it's greatly decreased) which would of course contribute to such issues, so simply pointing to increased incidences of depression doesn't at all prove that decreased societal stigma wouldn't solve it. What would strongly prove prove your claim would be to demonstrate that, in the last decade or two (when all of those "social advances" happened), there hasn't been any appreciable decrease in things like rates of depression or suicide rates among homosexuals. Do you have data to support something like that? Because if not, your claim really hasn't been supported. If yes, then you would in fact have a good argument.

            And, no, comparing the overall health and well-being of homosexuals with heterosexuals is not erroneous just because it leads to a conclusion that you don't like.
            I never said it was erroneous because "it leads to a conclusion I don't like" (which is an odd assumption of you to make). I said it was erroneous for the reasons I said it was erroneous, which I believe are valid reasons. I even proposed a comparison that I felt would be far better in evaluating the issue and asked if you had any data on it, because you're the one repeatedly making the claims and such data could potentially support your point. Do you have any such data on what I regard as a far more relevant and accurate comparison point or not?
            Last edited by Terraceth; 04-26-2017, 10:04 PM.

            Comment


            • In all seriousness I can't get my2 year old and heck half the time my preteen to decide what they want for lunch. When I had the age appropriate birds and bees talk about "where do babies come from" with my preteen she's been calling it the "yucky stuff" We've barely begun to approach deviancy. Its going to come up, but....If they can't decide what they want for lunch, and sex is labeled "yucky" these people in England live on some other planet. We homeschool to avoid these situations.
              A happy family is but an earlier heaven.
              George Bernard Shaw

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                I'm referring to modern television, you idiot.
                Ah I see. You're referring to the content of programs after you stopped watching much. Which may be why you appear unable to provide any examples of what you claim is common.

                I'll be sure to weight your opinion accordingly.
                Last edited by Roy; 04-27-2017, 03:21 AM.
                Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.

                MM: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
                MM on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.

                seer: I believe that so called 'compassion' [for starving Palestinian kids] maybe a cover for anti Semitism, ...

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Terraceth View Post
                  Your [MM's] claim is that despite social advances or whatever you want to call it, they're still no less miserable, pointing to evidence of increased rates of suicide and depression, and use that to defend the claim that increased social advances wouldn't fix the problem.
                  Naturally MM's claims are complete nonsense on this subject just as much as every other subject he spouts nonsense on. There's a good review article here that was published in a top journal last year:
                  Mental Health in Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, and Transgender (LGBT) Youth.

                  Some choice snippets from it:
                  "To date, only 19 states and the District of Columbia have fully enumerated antibullying laws that include specific protections for sexual and gender minorities (GLSEN 2015), despite the profound effects that these laws have on the experiences of youth in schools (e.g., Hatzenbuehler et al. 2014). LGBT youth in schools with enumerated nondiscrimination or antibullying policies (those that explicitly include actual or perceived sexual orientation and gender identity or expression) report fewer experiences of victimizations and harassment than those who attend schools without these protections (Kosciw et al. 2014). As a result, lesbian and gay youth living in counties with fewer sexual orientation and gender identity (SOGI)-specific antibullying policies are twice as likely to report past-year suicide attempts than youth living in areas where these policies were more commonplace (Hatzenbuehler & Keyes 2013)."

                  "LGBT youth who live in neighborhoods with a higher concentration of LGBT-motivated assault hate crimes also report greater likelihood of suicidal ideation and attempts than those living in neighborhoods that report a low concentration of these offenses (Duncan & Hatzenbuehler 2014). Further, studies show that youth who live in communities that are generally supportive of LGBT rights [i.e., those with more protections for same-sex couples, greater number of registered Democrats, presence of gay-straight alliances (GSAs) in schools, and SOGI-specific nondiscrimination and antibullying policies] are less likely to attempt suicide even after controlling for other risk indicators, such as a history of physical abuse, depressive symptomatology, drinking behaviors, and peer victimization (Hatzenbuehler 2011). Such findings demonstrate that pervasive LGBT discrimination at the broader social/cultural level and the lack of institutionalized support have direct implications for the mental health and well-being of sexual minority youth."

                  "an area that has garnered new attention is the distinct negative effect of biased-based victimization compared to general harassment (Poteat & Russell 2013). Researchers have demonstrated that biased-based bullying (i.e., bullying or victimization due to one’s perceived or actual identities including, but not limited to, race, ethnicity, religion, sexual orientation, gender identity or expression, and disability status) amplifies the effects of victimization on negative outcomes. When compared to non-biased-based victimization, youth who experience LGB-based victimization report higher levels of depression, suicidal ideation, suicide attempts, substance use, and truancy (Poteat et al. 2011, Russell et al. 2012a), regardless of whether these experiences are in person or via the Internet (Sinclair et al. 2012)...although rates of bullying decrease over the course of the adolescent years, this trend is less pronounced for gay and bisexual compared to heterosexual males, leaving these youth vulnerable to these experiences for longer periods of time (Robinson et al. 2013)."

                  "Positive parental and familial relationships are crucial for youth well-being (Steinberg & Duncan 2002), but many LGBT youth fear coming out to parents (Potoczniak et al. 2009, Savin-Williams & Ream 2003) and may experience rejection from parents because of these identities (D’Augelli et al. 1998, Ryan et al. 2009). This propensity for rejection is evidenced in the disproportionate rates of LGBT homeless youth in comparison to the general population (an estimated 40% of youth served by drop-in centers, street outreach programs, and housing programs identify as LGBT; Durso & Gates 2012). Although not all youth experience family repudiation, those who do are at greater risk for depressive symptoms, anxiety, and suicide attempts (D’Augelli 2002, Rosario et al. 2009). Further, those who fear rejection from family and friends also report higher levels of depression and anxiety (D’Augelli 2002). In an early study of family disclosure, D’Augelli and colleagues (1998) found that compared to those who had not disclosed, youth who had told family members about their LGB identity often reported more verbal and physical harassment from family members and experiences of suicidal thoughts and behavior. More recently, Ryan and colleagues (2009) found that compared to those reporting low levels of family rejection, individuals who experienced high levels of rejection were dramatically more likely to report suicidal ideation, to attempt suicide, and to score in the clinical range for depression."

                  "Studies clearly demonstrate the benefit of affirming and protective school environments for LGBT youth mental health. Youth living in states with enumerated antibullying laws that include sexual orientation and gender identity report less homophobic victimization and harassment than do students who attend schools in states without these protections (Kosciw et al. 2014). Further, mounting evidence documents the supportive role of GSAs in schools (Poteat et al. 2012, Toomey et al. 2011). GSAs are school-based, student-led clubs open to all youth who support LGBT students; GSAs aim to reduce prejudice and harassment within the school environment (Goodenow et al. 2006). LGBT students in schools with GSAs and SOGI resources often report feeling safer and are less likely to report depressive symptom, substance use, and suicidal thoughts and behaviors in comparison with students in schools lacking such resources (Goodenow et al. 2006, Hatzenbuehler et al. 2014, Poteat et al. 2012). The benefits of these programs are also seen at later developmental stages: Toomey and colleagues (2011) found that youth who attended schools with GSAs, participated in a GSA, and perceived that their GSA encouraged safety also reported better psychological health during young adulthood."

                  "research also demonstrates that LGBT-focused policy and inclusive curriculums are associated with better psychological adjustment for LGBT students (Black et al. 2012). LGBT-inclusive curriculums introduce specific historical events, persons, and information about the LGBT community into student learning (Snapp et al. 2015a,b) and have been shown to improve students’ sense of safety (Toomey et al. 2012) and feelings of acceptance (GLSEN 2011) and to reduce victimization in schools (Kosciw et al. 2012). Further, LGBT-specific training for teachers, staff, and administrators fosters understanding and empathy for LGBT students and is associated with more frequent adult intervention in biased-based bullying (Greytak et al. 2013, Greytak & Kosciw 2014)."

                  "At the interpersonal level, studies of LGBT youth have consistently shown that parental and peer support are related to positive mental health, self-acceptance, and well-being (Sheets & Mohr 2009, Shilo & Savaya 2011). D’Augelli (2003) found that LGB youth who retained friends after disclosing their sexual identity had higher levels of self-esteem, lower levels of depressive symptomatology, and fewer suicidal thoughts than those who had lost friends as a result of coming out... Noteworthy is support specifically related to and affirming one’s sexual orientation and gender identity, which appears to be especially beneficial for youth (compared to general support; Doty et al. 2010, Ryan et al. 2010). Snapp and colleagues (2015c) found that sexuality-related social support from parents, friends, and community during adolescence each uniquely contributed to positive well-being in young adulthood, with parental support providing the most benefit... Ryan et al. (2010) found that parents’ support of sexual orientation and gender expression was related to higher levels self-esteem, less depression, and fewer reports of suicidal ideation or suicide attempts."

                  "findings demonstrate that dating same-sex partners is related to improved mental health and lower substance use behavior for LGB youth (Russell & Consolacion 2003, Russell et al. 2002). Results from a three-year longitudinal study showed that in comparison to LGB youth who dated other-sex partners, those who dated same-sex partners experienced an increase in self-esteem and a decrease in internalized homophobia for men and women, respectively (Bauermeister et al. 2010). In a more recent study, Baams and colleagues (2014) found that the presence of a romantic partner buffered the effects of minority stress on the psychological well-being of same-sex-attracted youth."

                  "Studies have documented higher psychiatric disorders among LGB adults living in US states that banned marriage for same-sex couples (Hatzenbuehler et al. 2010)"

                  Apart from completely demolishing MM's bizarre theory that social prejudice against LGBT people has no effect on their mental health, two of the findings reported above might be of particular interest to people here:
                  (1) Gay youth who are in a same-sex relationship show better mental health than those who aren't.
                  (2) One of the most important factors in the mental health of gay youth is parental acceptance of and support of their sexual identity. 'Generalized' parental support of the "we don't really approve, but we still love you anyway" kind, isn't nearly as helpful to the kid's mental health as "we not only support you in general, but you have our acceptance and love and support in your sexuality and your relationships in particular."
                  "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
                  "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
                  "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Starlight View Post
                    Yeah, why would being bullied less at school, receiving less name-calling and less social ostracism, and not being kicked out of home by your parents, and having friends and family be supportive of your relationships rather than criticizing you for them, have any positive effects whatsoever on a person's mental well-being? This is pretty hard stuff to work out MM, I can see why your brain just can't cope with the difficult ideas.

                    I can show you all kinds of health statistics from the US that show that black people have worse health outcomes than white people there. So is the lesson from that "don't be black"? Because that seems the kind of nonsensical statement you are making with regard to gay people.
                    except there has been less bullying, name-calling and social ostracism for being gay and yet the suicide rates are still 2 to 6 times higher than heterosexuals and run about 30% of gays attempting suicide. About the same or higher than when I was growing up when there was more bullying, name-calling and ostracism of gays.

                    Here is a study from 97-98 showing the suicide rate of Gays and Bi's was:
                    Results. Twenty-one percent had made a suicide plan; 12% had attempted suicide (almost half of those 12% were multiple attempters). Most who attempted suicide made their first attempt before age 25.
                    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1447240/

                    And the study I posted earlier had rates HIGHER!

                    http://www.speakforthem.org/facts.html

                    Suicide is the leading cause of death among Gay and Lesbian youth nationally.
                    30% of Gay youth attempt suicide near the age of 15.
                    Gays and Lesbians are two to six times more likely to suicide than Heterosexuals.
                    Almost half of the Gay and Lesbian teens state they have attempted suicide more than once.
                    It has been conservatively estimated the 1,500 Gay and Lesbian youth commit suicide every year.

                    Comment


                    • I should think that high suicide rates among LGBTQ would be a clarion call for the church to help.
                      If these people hate themselves then condemnation is not required but the love of God certainly is needed.
                      Maybe the church could alter it's message to help in what appears to be a bit of an apocalypse.

                      I'm not sure the message: You want to kill yourself because you're insane is the best approach.

                      This is one thing that the church doesn't seem to comprehend and is the idea that sin always produces death.
                      We act like the big LGBTQ alliance is some unstoppable force marching all over the landscape when they've a tendency to suicide.
                      The church needs to stop walking on the dead.
                      Actually YOU put Trump in the White House. He wouldn't have gotten 1% of the vote if it wasn't for the widespread spiritual and cultural devastation caused by progressive policies. There's no "this country" left with your immigration policies, your "allies" are worthless and even more suicidal than you are and democracy is a sick joke that I hope nobody ever thinks about repeating when the current order collapses. - Darth_Executor striking a conciliatory note in Civics 101

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Terraceth View Post
                        Your claim is that despite social advances or whatever you want to call it, they're still no less miserable, pointing to evidence of increased rates of suicide and depression, and use that to defend the claim that increased social advances wouldn't fix the problem.

                        The problem with that is that there's still a lot of societal stigma against homosexuality (even if it's greatly decreased) which would of course contribute to such issues, so simply pointing to increased incidences of depression doesn't at all prove that decreased societal stigma wouldn't solve it. What would strongly prove prove your claim would be to demonstrate that, in the last decade or two (when all of those "social advances" happened), there hasn't been any appreciable decrease in things like rates of depression or suicide rates among homosexuals. Do you have data to support something like that? Because if not, your claim really hasn't been supported. If yes, then you would in fact have a good argument.

                        I never said it was erroneous because "it leads to a conclusion I don't like" (which is an odd assumption of you to make). I said it was erroneous for the reasons I said it was erroneous, which I believe are valid reasons. I even proposed a comparison that I felt would be far better in evaluating the issue and asked if you had any data on it, because you're the one repeatedly making the claims and such data could potentially support your point. Do you have any such data on what I regard as a far more relevant and accurate comparison point or not?
                        You're not arguing with me, you're arguing with decades of research.

                        The data says what it says whether you like it or not.
                        Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                        But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                        Than a fool in the eyes of God


                        From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Meh Gerbil View Post
                          I'm not sure the message: You want to kill yourself because you're insane is the best approach.
                          No, but pretending that it's not a mental disorder is just as stupid.
                          Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                          But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                          Than a fool in the eyes of God


                          From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Meh Gerbil View Post
                            I should think that high suicide rates among LGBTQ would be a clarion call for the church to help.
                            If these people hate themselves then condemnation is not required but the love of God certainly is needed.
                            Maybe the church could alter it's message to help in what appears to be a bit of an apocalypse.

                            I'm not sure the message: You want to kill yourself because you're insane is the best approach.

                            This is one thing that the church doesn't seem to comprehend and is the idea that sin always produces death.
                            We act like the big LGBTQ alliance is some unstoppable force marching all over the landscape when they've a tendency to suicide.
                            The church needs to stop walking on the dead.
                            What the heck? I know of no church that acts like that. They want to help them. But you don't do that by telling them that what they do is OK. You do it by showing that despite being a sinner, just like everyone else, Jesus offers them hope and salvation. Which every church I have been in does.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                              What the heck? I know of no church that acts like that. They want to help them. But you don't do that by telling them that what they do is OK. You do it by showing that despite being a sinner, just like everyone else, Jesus offers them hope and salvation. Which every church I have been in does.
                              I suspect our message is somewhat muddled by our politics.
                              I think an honest assessment of the current climate would reveal that the message being received is altogether different than what we'd hope.

                              There are two mindsets wherein one believes the LGBTQ community is strong, obstinate, and on course for world domination and therefore it must be rebuffed with a strong show of political force and the other mindset that recognizes that the LGBTQ community is quite frail and full of wounded people who are in desperate need of help. Even from a crass biological standpoint these people cannot last long as they don't reproduce - and the suicide rates that conservatives seem to love reveals that they kill themselves with even greater zeal than their most vocal opponents.

                              They already know it's wrong, Sparko.
                              What they cannot fathom is that God could possibly love them.
                              I guarantee you that is where the problem lies.
                              Actually YOU put Trump in the White House. He wouldn't have gotten 1% of the vote if it wasn't for the widespread spiritual and cultural devastation caused by progressive policies. There's no "this country" left with your immigration policies, your "allies" are worthless and even more suicidal than you are and democracy is a sick joke that I hope nobody ever thinks about repeating when the current order collapses. - Darth_Executor striking a conciliatory note in Civics 101

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                                No, but pretending that it's not a mental disorder is just as stupid.
                                So is materialism, so is gluttony, so is lying, so is hatred... I'm just exhausted that this is the one mental disorder that gets all the press.

                                You have enough faith to know that regardless of how many articles are written, how many books are published, how many experts with their stupid bow ties get up and cite meaningless statistics that no force in the universe can make it out to be anything other than a sin problem. If you could buy stock in the idea that it is a sin problem you'd do well to put all of your money there because it is a sure thing. The ways of God cannot be opposed even a little bit. You know this so why spend time arguing with people who have mental disorders about their mental disorder? Rest.
                                Actually YOU put Trump in the White House. He wouldn't have gotten 1% of the vote if it wasn't for the widespread spiritual and cultural devastation caused by progressive policies. There's no "this country" left with your immigration policies, your "allies" are worthless and even more suicidal than you are and democracy is a sick joke that I hope nobody ever thinks about repeating when the current order collapses. - Darth_Executor striking a conciliatory note in Civics 101

                                Comment

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