What is the acid test?

[OtherCheek]

I'm kinda with you here, OC, except I don't call it a "law", I call it a Biblical principle. For example, faithfulness to God in stewardship -- I believe he has rewarded me because I have a fairly good understanding of the principles of God's "fiances"... and I have been blessed beyond anything I deserve.

HOWEVER, there are people who are FILTHY RICH who don't even ACKNOWLEDGE God. So, while I believe God rewards faithfulness, it's certainly not a "proof" that somebody has "God" if they have "riches".

Yes, principles / laws, either word works for me here. And as far as material things, God allows it to both rain and shine on the righteous as well as the wicked. But there are rewards besides material riches. Such as Peace, a Clear Conscious, Faith to do great things, gift of understanding others, empathy, wisdom, etc. I don't think God showers these kinds of rewards on the wicked.

The Spirit "seals" us. That is something that NON-Christians can never obtain apart from Christ.

I would agree. Do you believe in the assurance (promise) of being "sealed IF"? Or do you believe in just being sealed no matter what we do with ourselves?

Is being "sealed" a fruit of the Holy Spirit in your opinion?

Is that the only fruit (or gift) you know of that only the Holy Spirit can give? Or might there be others as well?

Being "sealed" is something that cannot be verified by a bunch of panelists, right?

A lot of possible tangents. Sorry.

[OtherCheek]

So, the thingie in the Bible that tells us that those who live godly in Christ Jesus SHALL suffer persecution... we just throw that away? Or the part that tells us to count it all joy when we face trials... or that Jesus came NOT to bring peace, but a sword... or the part that tells us to put on the whole armor of God.... this is all in preparation for hope, assurance and peace?

I think that, BECAUSE of the comfort (and many other qualities) of the Holy Spirit, we have REAL peace and joy even in the midst of trials and persecutions.

It's an old cliche, but --- sometimes, Jesus saves us FROM the storm, and sometimes he saves us THROUGH the storm.

I agree. Part of the outcome of following God's protocol might include persecution--at least in this life. There would seem to be a correlation in my mind that when you become his disciple, persecutions will likely follow. But I think that persecution can be swallowed up in Joy and Peace etc. as they are more powerful. IMO.

[Sparko]

Why would it have to be a magic spell that if we obey some law of God, He gives us something?



Thanks. I take you at your word. But I'm really not as perfect as you think I am.



So, is there any fruit of the Holy Spirit than can only be obtained THROUGH the Spirit? Or can every fruit of the Spirit also be obtained via means that exclude the Spirit?

Let's go back to your example: Let's say that the man says that the fruit of the tea is that it cures cancer. And lo and behold! It does cure cancer!

Does that mean that every time someone is cured from cancer (the fruit of the tea!) that it is because of the tea?

[Cow Poke]

I agree. Part of the outcome of following God's protocol might include persecution--at least in this life. There would seem to be a correlation in my mind that when you become his disciple, persecutions will likely follow. But I think that persecution can be swallowed up in Joy and Peace etc. as they are more powerful. IMO.

Well, we're "getting there", but the verse actually says "SHALL suffer persecution". And, yes, I agree "in this life". As far as being "swallowed up in Joy and Peace"... there is a season. In the long run, yes. But there is no promise that the Christian life is all a box of chocolates or an endless supply of bacon. IMO.

[Dracula Girl]

Darn, this thread is too along far to mention that acid test ratio in finance.

[Cow Poke]

Yes, principles / laws, either word works for me here.

"law" (in an age of Grace) sounds so (not trying to be offensive, but it's my opinion) "cultish".

And as far as material things, God allows it to both rain and shine on the righteous as well as the wicked.

Now THAT's Bible!

But there are rewards besides material riches. Such as Peace, a Clear Conscious, Faith to do great things, gift of understanding others, empathy, wisdom, etc. I don't think God showers these kinds of rewards on the wicked.

Sparko is covering this... a person who is basically a "good person" - my uncle Clarence - who doesn't even PRETEND to profess Christ, seems to exhibit peace and a clear conscience. He has also done great things. But he is, by his own admission (practically a proclamation), NOT a Christian.

I would agree. Do you believe in the assurance (promise) of being "sealed IF"? Or do you believe in just being sealed no matter what we do with ourselves?

This is a bit complicated, in my view. I believe that somebody who is genuinely saved would NOT "go back" to a life without Christ. It's the principle of "They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us" thing. (1 John 2:19) This is where my orthodox friends might disagree with me, but I think it goes back to whether or not somebody was "saved" in the first place. Who can know that? It's between God and that person. Can we get an indication of that? That's where the fruits of the Spirit come in.

Somebody always uses the example of a person who "gets saved" then, later, reverts to a life of crime and debauchery, and they say "is THAT person saved?" (I believe YOUR response would be that they have forfeited their salvation, yes?) I believe it's possible that they were not saved in the first place.

Again, this is a complicated issue, I realize I'm always opening myself up to criticism when I deal with it. My main focus is -- if you're living for Jesus and serving HIM, you don't have to worry about it.

Is being "sealed" a fruit of the Holy Spirit in your opinion?

Interesting -- "sealing" is not "listed" as a fruit of the Spirit. But I suppose I would say it's the beginning of the process.

Is that the only fruit (or gift) you know of that only the Holy Spirit can give? Or might there be others as well?

Again -- Satan is the great imitator... people can be "happy". I always say (and, yes, it's a bit hokey) that "happiness" comes from "happenings". As long as things "happen" the way we want them to, one can be "happy". JOY, on the other hand, comes from within, and can be manifested even when things don't "happen" the way we think they should.

Being "sealed" is something that cannot be verified by a bunch of panelists, right?

Panelists? Saved people? Lost people? Brothers in Christ?

A lot of possible tangents. Sorry.

No apology necessary for the tangents, OC -- you seem to be honestly and sincerely discussing, and I don't mind at all when somebody asks questions that make me think. I don't pretend to have all the answers -- which does NOT mean that i don't have SOME or MANY answers! HOWEVER - keep in mind -- I'm an "odd duck"... I'm not necessarily totally "orthodox", I guess.

[jo7241974]

OtherCheek;3121908]Good thoughts, Jo.

It seems to me that "faith" is a common element when desirable fruit results. As to being cured, the greater cure, IMO, is the peace of mind and hope that can be ours, regardless of the physical end result. Being made spiritually "whole" is of greater value and worth, as I see it, than to be made physically whole.

This is what faith is about. When we have spiritual experiences resulting from faith, only rarely is the evidence of this manifestation something that can be seen physically. Generally, I have determined that when physical evidence of faith is seen by others, there is a greater purpose for God allowing this to be "seen". That purpose is usually to get the attention of others so that they might be drawn to hear the Gospel message. Yet the greater value of those whose faith grows and remains focused on God is one which cannot be seen - although good works are manifested and others are benefited by this. It is all a part of the journey of becoming "one". The effects of this "becoming" are not only experienced by the one whose faith is increasing; there is a power surrounding that faith which has influence all around it.

Likewise, I think "the fruit" that we use to corroborate the nature of the tree, should include what is spiritually manifest moreso than what may be physically manifest.

I agree. An interesting observation I have made, however, is that as a group, you can see the Holy Spirit at work in the general fruits being produced by that group - such as the LDS Church, even though it is the individual whose faith is growing. Again, this is part of becoming "one" which does not only affect a singular individual because it is also effecting the group collectively.

We are to remain faithful to God no matter what afflictions he may see fit for us to suffer, but the acid test to know that our faithfulness is founded on a correct footing, I believe, should always include the desirability of the fruit that comes from such faithfulness.

This is such a simple truth!! And it all began in the Garden of Eden because the fruit of the tree of good and evil held what appeared to be such desirable fruit. How telling this is! And once Adam and Eve had eaten that fruit, we are taught they had become as gods because they now knew the difference between good and evil. And so their second estate journey began - and ours begins as well when we enter our physical body and continues for as long as we are in our physical body. I would daresay the journey continues beyond this physical body; our learning is different then and only changes by our boundaries and the knowledge we possess at any point during eternity.

I guess our faithfulness is the acid test. Our perceptions of fruit and whether they are good or bad fruit is entirely subjective. Physical fruit is visible; but our faith and the personal "fruit" of our faith which we experience is invisible. If the desire of our faithfulness is placed in Christ, there is no stronger foundation to place our faith.

God bless,

jo

[jo7241974]

I agree. Part of the outcome of following God's protocol might include persecution--at least in this life. There would seem to be a correlation in my mind that when you become his disciple, persecutions will likely follow. But I think that persecution can be swallowed up in Joy and Peace etc. as they are more powerful. IMO.

I absolutely agree! Being persecuted because someone disagrees with my politics or my choice of career, or because of the clothes I wear, etc. (physical and worldly stuff), haven't ever brought me any type of meaningful joy or peace. However, being persecuted because of my faith in Christ and my beliefs about God have always brought me a profound Joy and Peace no matter what the physical price was or is.

God bless,

jo

[Cow Poke]

I absolutely agree! Being persecuted because someone disagrees with my politics or my choice of career, or because of the clothes I wear, etc. (physical and worldly stuff), haven't ever brought me any type of meaningful joy or peace.

I actually AGREE, Jo! Although I wouldn't necessarily agree it was "persecution", so much as "ridicule". If you were, for example, in Cuba, and being BEATEN for your political views, I think that's closer to "persecution". But no real disagreement here.

However, being persecuted because of my faith in Christ and my beliefs about God have always brought me a profound Joy and Peace no matter what the physical price was or is.

God bless,

jo

Even in religious "persecution", I think much of what we call "persecution" doesn't really rise the level of actual "persecution". Technically, perhaps, because the dictionary definition is...

to harass or punish in a manner designed to injure, grieve, or afflict; specifically : to cause to suffer because of belief

This is just my opinion, of course, but I think using the word "persecution" is a slight to those who suffered REAL loss (their homes burned, family members murdered or raped (or both, in either order), broken bones, physical violence).

Maybe I've spent too much time with the folks from "Voice of the Martyrs".

[OtherCheek]

Interesting -- "sealing" is not "listed" as a fruit of the Spirit. But I suppose I would say it's the beginning of the process.

There's a lot we could probably argue about, but what's the use? Really? Where does that lead?

Anyway, on this one point, I was asking specifically of "Fruits of the Holy Spirit" that seem to come via other means than the Holy Spirit.

I don't believe Satan can imitate the "Fruits of the Spirit". If so, then those fruits are mis-labeled.

[jo7241974]

I actually AGREE, Jo! Although I wouldn't necessarily agree it was "persecution", so much as "ridicule". If you were, for example, in Cuba, and being BEATEN for your political views, I think that's closer to "persecution". But no real disagreement here.



Even in religious "persecution", I think much of what we call "persecution" doesn't really rise the level of actual "persecution". Technically, perhaps, because the dictionary definition is...



This is just my opinion, of course, but I think using the word "persecution" is a slight to those who suffered REAL loss (their homes burned, family members murdered or raped (or both, in either order), broken bones, physical violence).

Maybe I've spent too much time with the folks from "Voice of the Martyrs".

What you are describing as "REAL" loss is your interpretation of something physical and worldly. I think that spiritual persecution can be just as painful even though it cannot be seen. In fact, we cannot experience emotional peace after suffering physical persecution until after we have asked God to forgive those who have persecuted us, as well as asking His help in forgiving them ourselves. This takes place within us and cannot be seen physically.

Yet there is an overall calming effect of the joy and peace which comes with spiritual persecution even before we have asked God to forgive someone who persecutes us spiritually. Although this is described in the Bible, it seems to automatically happen because it is a true principle. IOW, it is not something that has to be taught in order for it to be experienced.

Physical loss and spiritual loss are two very distinct differences. While one can effect the other, the first is only temporary; the second can last eternally. Our actions and choices we make against others in the physical world can have unforeseen consequences in the eternal spiritual world. Those consequences, whether good or bad, are going to be experienced by both the offender and the offended.

I would still contend that the acid test concerns and involves our faith and faithfulness in the unseen over any type of physical manifestation or evidence.

God bless,

jo

[jo7241974]

There's a lot we could probably argue about, but what's the use? Really? Where does that lead?

Anyway, on this one point, I was asking specifically of "Fruits of the Holy Spirit" that seem to come via other means than the Holy Spirit.

I don't believe Satan can imitate the "Fruits of the Spirit". If so, then those fruits are mis-labeled.

I think that from moment to moment, every single action or choice we make can either be the fruit of the Holy Spirit, or it can be the fruit of the adversary. Just because we are filled with the Holy Spirit does not prevent us or protect us from giving heed to Satan's influence. Indeed, the fruits that are labeled as being from satan ARE mis-labeled if the fruit is good fruit. What can really confuse us is that God will also use bad fruit for His own purposes. Yet good only comes from God. Bad can be turned around and used for good purposes by God.

God bless,

jo

[franktalk]

There is no acid test. There are however many little steps which can lead to a belief being solid based on experience. I did not say evidence. Way before someone comes to Christ they are chosen and given to Christ. Christ will not lose any. Oh there may be stumbling along the way but the out come is assured.

As the Holy Ghost works in us our conscience is fine tuned. We start to have a more crystal clear view of right and wrong. But as we develop this the evil spirits start to also work on us with temptation. They come hand in hand until one knows how to prevent evil from knocking at our door. Which may be never. Now as our conscience gets fine tuned it becomes obvious to us which way we should turn to get on the path that God has chosen for us. But we still have free will and can of course ignore the path and go the way of the world. I do not know if all people experience this call to a path or not. These would be the elect. Or the elect is a subset that actually gets on the path. I do not know.

Since we are to live in faith the Holy Ghost is very careful in its communication with us. It can be viewed as solid or a dream and means nothing. Man still has choice. And of course there is much more. But I am sure that this is the start.

[OtherCheek]

Let's go back to your example: Let's say that the man says that the fruit of the tea is that it cures cancer. And lo and behold! It does cure cancer!

Does that mean that every time someone is cured from cancer (the fruit of the tea!) that it is because of the tea?

No. Taking the tea might also be a vehicle (action) for the exercise of faith. (There are many levels of faith--but they all lead to faith in God in the end as I see it). But if the tea were really concentrated hemlock in disguise, I would be surprised to see such a result as being cured.

Even taking strong medicine such as Chemo is not powerful enough to overpower the mind, if the mind is determined that "this is the end of me."

[OtherCheek]

There is no acid test. There are however many little steps which can lead to a belief being solid based on experience. I did not say evidence. Way before someone comes to Christ they are chosen and given to Christ. Christ will not lose any. Oh there may be stumbling along the way but the out come is assured.

As the Holy Ghost works in us our conscience is fine tuned. We start to have a more crystal clear view of right and wrong. But as we develop this the evil spirits start to also work on us with temptation. They come hand in hand until one knows how to prevent evil from knocking at our door. Which may be never. Now as our conscience gets fine tuned it becomes obvious to us which way we should turn to get on the path that God has chosen for us. But we still have free will and can of course ignore the path and go the way of the world. I do not know if all people experience this call to a path or not. These would be the elect. Or the elect is a subset that actually gets on the path. I do not know.

Since we are to live in faith the Holy Ghost is very careful in its communication with us. It can be viewed as solid or a dream and means nothing. Man still has choice. And of course there is much more. But I am sure that this is the start.

I would agree, FrankTalk. There is no real "acid test" in the context of my intent for this thread. At least not in this life--as we live by faith. The acid test, I suppose, will be when we are asked to stand and the right hand of God, or scoot over to his left. But actually, a person should know long before that event, which camp he has chosen to pitch his tent in. In other words, we really don't NEED to have an acid test in this life. We have all been given enough light and knowledge to make our choices sufficiently clear to us.