The Reduction of Salvation.

[mickiel]

If you believe in the ultimate involuntary reconciliation of everyone to God, doesn't that include evil spirits, including Satan?

No it does not. Salvation was designed for humans. Humans were created to have Life and to live forever with God. Demons were created to destroy and to ultimately be destroyed. They are not substancial life as we know it, they are nuclear, they combust only to evil. They are explosive and were created to be that way. They are not included in Salvation. They will be " No more."

Peace.

[mickiel]

Look at 2 Peter 3:9;" The Lord is not slow about his Promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance." Many believers are actually " Counting Gods Patience", looking at time God counting down the days until destruction. No, God is counting down the days until Salvation. They are destruction minded, trying to number the days until God deals with evil. God looks at human time in terms of our Salvation only, he does not want us to perish, he wants sin and evil to perish, and he HAS willed it to perish, he has not willed that any human perish.

Vs. 15;" Reguard the patience of our Lord to be Salvation." Because thats what it is, Salvation for all humans. But there are forces out there that seek to create an atmosphere of a reduction in Salvation, they are being led to view time as a building up of the destruction of humans, not a building up of their Salvation.

And I want to go into that spirit of reduction.

Peace.

[Catholicity]

I entirely agree that Humans were created to have life eternal with God. However, we have demonstrated choice, to live within God's will or out of it Adam and Eve demonstrated this by listening to the Serpent.
While Jesus is indeed the fullfillment and our Redemption, We continue to have choice and make choice. I noticed you ingored the words of Jesus "in this age or the age to come" regarding the judgement.

Willful ignorance of Christ's words don't do any favors in debate. Atonement while is not limited, is free and God is not "forceful" He is rather a Gentleman who says I love you so much I will not force you to love me.

P.S. Satan had a choice too. He chose to willfully disobey God, and now spends eternity apart from him, and will burn forever because of it.

[mickiel]

I entirely agree that Humans were created to have life eternal with God. However, we have demonstrated choice, to live within God's will or out of it Adam and Eve demonstrated this by listening to the Serpent.
While Jesus is indeed the fullfillment and our Redemption, We continue to have choice and make choice. I noticed you ingored the words of Jesus "in this age or the age to come" regarding the judgement. quote

Well this age or the age to come, does not mean forgiveness willnot come, after the age to come, God will always forgive, eventually.


quote
Willful ignorance of Christ's words don't do any favors in debate. Atonement while is not limited, is free and God is not "forceful" He is rather a Gentleman who says I love you so much I will not force you to love me.

P.S. Satan had a choice too. He chose to willfully disobey God, and now spends eternity apart from him, and will burn forever because of it.

Oh God will use force, I disagree with you there. In Revelations 6th - 8th chapters , God uses force like this world has never seen before, read it for yourself and explain to me why that is not force.

Satan had no choice in his creation, neither did we. Jesus said he was a liar from his beginning, meaning he was created that way. Isaiah 54:17 confirms God created him that way.

Peace.

[Catholicity]

It describes force he uses to swiftly destroy his enemies in war and in judgement....please tell me you know how to read. I never once saw that God would "force" people to change their wicked ways. In fact I'm pretty sure I read he would save the righteous and crush the wicked.....

[mickiel]

It describes force he uses to swiftly destroy his enemies in war and in judgement....please tell me you know how to read. I never once saw that God would "force" people to change their wicked ways. In fact I'm pretty sure I read he would save the righteous and crush the wicked.....

The end result of the force of Rev. 6-8th chapters is Rev.7:10" Salvation to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb." Salvation is the end result of this destruction, and a crop of humans so large that nobody can count them are the result, which includes the repentant wicked. If that group of humans were only the righteous on earth, they could be counted, because the righteous are few, but the group in vs. 9 cannot be counted, which demands the reasonable assumption that the ex-wicked are amoung them, rendering them uncountable.

Peace.

[mickiel]

The end result of the force of Rev. 6-8th chapters is Rev.7:10" Salvation to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb." Salvation is the end result of this destruction, and a crop of humans so large that nobody can count them are the result, which includes the repentant wicked. If that group of humans were only the righteous on earth, they could be counted, because the righteous are few, but the group in vs. 9 cannot be counted, which demands the reasonable assumption that the ex-wicked are amoung them, rendering them uncountable.

Peace.

The above is a logical reasoning that those who reduce Salvation simply refuse to deal with. John saw a number of saved humans that was impossible for any human to calculate. If we go by " Christian interpitation of scripture", and use their doctrine of limited salvation, then we should easily be able to count that number, but John goes against that reasoning and gives an unlimited impression of Salvation. So Salvation is far greater than christian calculation.

In Psalms 68:20;" God is to us a God of deliverances, and to God the Lord belongs escapes from death." It is God himself who is Salvation, he is responsible for Salvation. The attititude of the reduction of Salvation seeks to place that responsibility on human decision, which can never be, its too Holy of a thing to be in human hands, or a byproduct of human will.

And I want to continue on that.

Peace.

[Catholicity]

The above is a logical reasoning that those who reduce Salvation simply refuse to deal with. John saw a number of saved humans that was impossible for any human to calculate. If we go by " Christian interpitation of scripture", and use their doctrine of limited salvation, then we should easily be able to count that number, but John goes against that reasoning and gives an unlimited impression of Salvation. So Salvation is far greater than christian calculation.

In Psalms 68:20;" God is to us a God of deliverances, and to God the Lord belongs escapes from death." It is God himself who is Salvation, he is responsible for Salvation. The attititude of the reduction of Salvation seeks to place that responsibility on human decision, which can never be, its too Holy of a thing to be in human hands, or a byproduct of human will.

And I want to continue on that.

Peace.

Is it really logical? The issue you bring in absolutely ignores words of Judgement. It entirely eliminates whole passages regarding the destruction of the ones who refuse to listen and repent of evil in their hearts and minds. Yes by the Lord we escape death, but only if we follow Him and hear Him. Jesus has made this clear.
I want to pose this question to you. Are you calling Jesus a liar, when he says "he who blasphemes the Holy Spirit, will not be forgiven in this age or in the age to come" Secondly, the verses you point out are only those which speak to atonement for Christians, and effectively any references to judgement of those who persecute, and remain wicked to the end have been ignored.
And no we cannot count the number because effectively it is not for us to know the number of people who are saved... only that it is great.
Now another logic flaw is the no consequences rule. Anyone can do anything they want and God will cover it all. Ehh...This is entirely Contrary to Scripture, the whole of it, and Unless you are reading some other Bible I quoted chapter and verse the one sin listed that a man could commit and NEVER be forgiven of. Right here is a flaw in the argument. Please come up with something Not contrary to scripture itself, and we will have a lively debate.

[mickiel]

Is it really logical? The issue you bring in absolutely ignores words of Judgement. It entirely eliminates whole passages regarding the destruction of the ones who refuse to listen and repent of evil in their hearts and minds. Yes by the Lord we escape death, but only if we follow Him and hear Him. Jesus has made this clear.
I want to pose this question to you. Are you calling Jesus a liar, when he says "he who blasphemes the Holy Spirit, will not be forgiven in this age or in the age to come" Secondly, the verses you point out are only those which speak to atonement for Christians, and effectively any references to judgement of those who persecute, and remain wicked to the end have been ignored.
And no we cannot count the number because effectively it is not for us to know the number of people who are saved... only that it is great.
Now another logic flaw is the no consequences rule. Anyone can do anything they want and God will cover it all. Ehh...This is entirely Contrary to Scripture, the whole of it, and Unless you are reading some other Bible I quoted chapter and verse the one sin listed that a man could commit and NEVER be forgiven of. Right here is a flaw in the argument. Please come up with something Not contrary to scripture itself, and we will have a lively debate.

The sin will be forgiven the age after the age to come. God will always forgive.

And Jesus paied all the consequences for sin on the cross, you cannot create new ones just to condemn unbelievers. You may not like it, but all sins are covered, they are not being imputed to humanity.

Peace.

[Bernie]

Paul himself stated "lest I myself be disqualified"

You read this verse through not merely the eyes of Catholicism, but those of organized Christianity when you interpret the loss of eternal salvation as Paul's intended meaning in 1Cor 9. I suggest that Paul saw clearly that what is lost in time--and this applies to all human beings everywhere--by failing to 'run the race' is the salvation afforded by faith, i.e., salvation from the lake of fire by the acquisition in this life of faith. This is what I believe he means by running the race, e.g., the application of one's will in the salvation process, in order to gain salvation from cleansing in the lake of fire, as all unbelievers will face, whether Christian, atheist, hindu, etc. This is why he spoke of the "special" salvation of believers in 1Tim 4:9-10.

[mickiel]

I am so disapointed by many christians, catholics and believers in God. They were not always believers, but then they change, they see salvation for themselves, then for some reason they can no longer see it for other unbelievers. They are now " Safe", safe enough to see so much condemnation in other unbelievers.

Peace.

[Sparko]

So if everyone is saved anyway, then what would be the point of Satan trying to convince anyone of their lack of salvation? Seems like a wasted effort to me.

However if not everyone is saved, then it would make sense that Satan would want to convince people that everyone would be saved, so as to let them blindly live their lives blissfully ignorant that they are unsaved until it is too late.

[mickiel]

So if everyone is saved anyway, then what would be the point of Satan trying to convince anyone of their lack of salvation? Seems like a wasted effort to me.

However if not everyone is saved, then it would make sense that Satan would want to convince people that everyone would be saved, so as to let them blindly live their lives blissfully ignorant that they are unsaved until it is too late.

Well satans mind is waste, he knows he cannot win, but his nature willnot stop there, he now just looks to " Spoil Gods plan even if but for the moment", ruin the human belief just while they are human and unaware. In his mind its not a waste, he just likes to deceive and confuse, he likes it. It turns him on that believers are confused about their own salvation and that of unbelievers. It is simply " Stunning" that many believers in God think that God is in " Compitition" with satan, or some kind of war where its good verses evil.

Nothing can challange Gods Power, NOTHING can compette with him, no evil can deter him, there is no war between God and satan. Salvation is a done deal, its " Sealed in Heaven", its just not sealed in the minds of many believers, espically how they consider the fate of unbelievers. Most of the time, given the chance, humans will always condemn other human unbelievers where Salvation is concerned. Its simply a very sad reality, and they think God is like them.

The reduction of Salvation is mostly alive in believers in God, they are the ones who are charging ahead unmercilessly with these shortshighted views of the Atonement of those who are evil, as if Christ cannot save unbelievers.

As great as Christ is, they are convinced that he cannot change unwilling evil unbelievers.

I am convinced he can. And will. So I am labeled a heretic.

Peace.

[Sparko]

Well satans mind is waste, he knows he cannot win, but his nature willnot stop there, he now just looks to " Spoil Gods plan even if but for the moment", ruin the human belief just while they are human and unaware. In his mind its not a waste, he just likes to deceive and confuse, he likes it. It turns him on that believers are confused about their own salvation and that of unbelievers. It is simply " Stunning" that many believers in God think that God is in " Compitition" with satan, or some kind of war where its good verses evil.

Nothing can challange Gods Power, NOTHING can compette with him, no evil can deter him, there is no war between God and satan. Salvation is a done deal, its " Sealed in Heaven", its just not sealed in the minds of many believers, espically how they consider the fate of unbelievers. Most of the time, given the chance, humans will always condemn other human unbelievers where Salvation is concerned. Its simply a very sad reality, and they think God is like them.

The reduction of Salvation is mostly alive in believers in God, they are the ones who are charging ahead unmercilessly with these shortshighted views of the Atonement of those who are evil, as if Christ cannot save unbelievers.

As great as Christ is, they are convinced that he cannot change unwilling evil unbelievers.

I am convinced he can. And will. So I am labeled a heretic.

Peace.

Why should God let people like Hitler or Charles Manson into heaven?

[mickiel]

Why should God let people like Hitler or Charles Manson into heaven?

Because he can totally forgive them, and then give them a totally " New Birth", thats what salvation is, a new birth, the old man is gone and the new one exist. Jesus death paied for this.

Why should they be excluded from this process?

Peace.