Forgiveness of Sin...

[Chappie]

Typical.

When one doesn't have a good response, the insults fly.

If the truth insults, it is more to be coveted that the joy of a lie...

I converted to Judaism after a very, very, very long period of soul searching and study. Your attempt to belittle that decision is duly noted. If I were you, O man of cloth, I would be more concerned with how you treat your fellow man than honing your preaching style.

NORM

There was no attempt to belittle, still the advice that you give is good advice. When you converted to Judiasm, what did you convert from?

[NormATive]

Description of worldly human behavior is no standard for the Kingdom of Heaven...

And yet, the Tanakh says that man (no provisos or exceptions stated) was created in G-d's image. Why would you suggest that worldly human behavior is antithetical to the Kingdom of Heaven?

The Faith of Christ is the Christian Faith...

There's no evidence of that. However, there is plenty of evidence that Jesus was Jewish.


NORM

[NormATive]

When you converted to Judiasm, what did you convert from?

Christianity.

NORM

[Chappie]

There's no evidence of that. However, there is plenty of evidence that Jesus was Jewish.
NORM

Functionally he was more of a Christian than a Jew...

[Rdr. Arsenios]

And yet, the Tanakh says that
man (no provisos or exceptions stated) was created in G-d's image.

Why would you suggest that worldly human behavior
is antithetical to the Kingdom of Heaven?

Well, the Fall of Adam for starters...
The presence of sin in the world, for another...

What you need is an anthropology that begins in the Kingdom of Heaven...

Watching coal miners drink beer and pinch waitresses when off shift just ain't gonna get it...

The anthropology you need is revealed... You might start with the life of Moses...

I mean, in terms of the question you asked, "Why is worldly human behavior antithetical to the Kingdom of God?", what you need is an anthropology of heavenly human behavior... And this is what you get in Christ... And in the Lives of the Saints...

The Faith of Christ is the Christian Faith...

There's no evidence of that.

You're putting me on the floor! That was WAY too funny, because when you look around and see how Christians behave, you will look a long time to find even a tiny shred of such evidence! I OWE you a belly-laugh!

However, there is plenty of evidence that Jesus was Jewish.

Well, he did have a Jewish Mother par Excellance! And when SHE said jump, His only question was: "How high?" I mean, you would not question his PEDIGREE, would you?

But the simple fact is that the Christian Faith is indeed the Faith of Christ, for it is He Who INSTITUTED this Faith upon te earth, as is abundantly attested in the NT, and in the subsequent 2000 years of History... The thing I think you question is His Identity... You think He was ONLY human, and fallen in Adam at that, yes? And if yes, then you do not believe your Jewish Brothers who all attested Him to be the Son of God, but instead side with your OTHER Jewish brothers who killed Him... And this for the very good reason that IF He is NOT the Son of God, in that Old Temple culture, death is the appropriate penalty for such self-elevation...

So my Brother, God bless you and yours on your way, and may you find sincerity and integrity and the Love of God in your walk along the Way...

Arsenios

[NormATive]

Well, the Fall of Adam for starters...
The presence of sin in the world, for another...

Well, what you call sin (and I call human nature) does not make us un-created in G-d's image. How can that be? Either we ARE in G-d's image or we are NOT. Which is it?

What you need is an anthropology that begins in the Kingdom of Heaven...

Why? What do you have against the world G-d created?

Watching coal miners drink beer and pinch waitresses when off shift just ain't gonna get it...

Hunh? Do you think all coal miners are letches? Most of the ones I know are very faithful family men.

The anthropology you need is revealed... You might start with the life of Moses...

I mean, in terms of the question you asked, "Why is worldly human behavior antithetical to the Kingdom of God?", what you need is an anthropology of heavenly human behavior... And this is what you get in Christ... And in the Lives of the Saints...

I don't think you really know what you are saying. I mean, you keep repeating the same phrases over and over again, as thought you are repeating something you heard in a sermon or read on an online forum. What do you mean EXACTLY by an "anthropology of heavenly human behavior?"

when you look around and see how Christians behave, you will look a long time to find even a tiny shred of such evidence! I OWE you a belly-laugh!

I'm not sure I follow your meaning here. Are you saying that most Christians (or all Christians) are not proper reflections (images) of G-d?

I mean, you would not question his PEDIGREE, would you?

Which one? The one in Matthew or the one in Luke? Are you a Timothy or a Titus?

But the simple fact is that the Christian Faith is indeed the Faith of Christ, for it is He Who INSTITUTED this Faith upon te earth, as is abundantly attested in the NT

Really? Where did Jesus tell his followers to ignore the bulk of the Law?

, and in the subsequent 2000 years of History... The thing I think you question is His Identity... You think He was ONLY human, and fallen in Adam at that, yes? And if yes, then you do not believe your Jewish Brothers who all attested Him to be the Son of God, but instead side with your OTHER Jewish brothers who killed Him... And this for the very good reason that IF He is NOT the Son of God, in that Old Temple culture, death is the appropriate penalty for such self-elevation...

I realize there are still some Christians who like to throw around the "Jews killed Jesus" thing - it's caused so much grief for my ancestors, you should know. Hitler picked up on that particular interpretation of Christian dogma.

At any rate, those who went on to create the Christian faith some hundred or so years after Jesus' death saw it necessary to divorce themselves from the faith that Jesus practiced (as written in the Bible, that is). The best way to accomplish that was to demonize those still faithful to Judaism and blame them for "killing" Jesus.

Yes, I do believe that Jesus was human, but I also believe that he had a special relationship to G-d and that he sincerely wished to bring his fellow Jews into a deeper understanding and evolution of their faith. I believe that he was a devotee of Rabbi Hillel's teaching, and were it not for his untimely death at the hands of the Roman government, he may have been successful in his reforms.

I have great admiration for his teaching, and fashion much of my worldview after his example.

NORM

[NormATive]

Functionally he was more of a Christian than a Jew...

Well of course, it's easy enough to say that. Would you call Hillel a Christian then?

NORM

[Chappie]

I realize there are still some Christians who like to throw around the "Jews killed Jesus" thing - it's caused so much grief for my ancestors, you should know. Hitler picked up on that particular interpretation of Christian dogma.

Pros•e•lyte
Definition:
Somebody converted to new belief: a new convert to a religious faith or political doctrine.
If it is true that you converted from Christianity, as Jewish as you want to be, your immediate ancestors were Christians. Your new faith is not a good reason for you to demean your old.

At any rate, those who went on to create the Christian faith some hundred or so years after Jesus' death saw it necessary to divorce themselves from the faith that Jesus practiced (as written in the Bible, that is). The best way to accomplish that was to demonize those still faithful to Judaism and blame them for "killing" Jesus.

This accusation of the Jews killing God is unfortunate and not of God: Just as un-godly as the Jews reluctance to see God's grace extended to the gentiles. We all suffer from being human, Jew and Gentile alike. The faith that Jesus practices, don't remember any instance where Jesus commended the Pharisees or the chief priest of his day, He did not come to embrace the old ways, but to change them.

Yes, I do believe that Jesus was human, but I also believe that he had a special relationship to G-d and that he sincerely wished to bring his fellow Jews into a deeper understanding and evolution of their faith. I believe that he was a devotee of Rabbi Hillel's teaching, and were it not for his untimely death at the hands of the Roman government, he may have been successful in his reforms.

"at the hands of the Roman government," Is it your intention to divorce the Jews from complicity in Jesus’ death. " 59Now the chief priests, and elders, and all the council, sought false witness against Jesus, to put him to death; 60But found none: yea, though many false witnesses came, yet found they none. At the last came two false witnesses,

"1When the morning was come, all the chief priests and elders of the people took counsel against Jesus to put him to death: 2And when they had bound him, they led him away, and delivered him to Pontius Pilate the governor."

"22Pilate saith unto them, What shall I do then with Jesus which is called Christ? They all say unto him, Let him be crucified. 23And the governor said, Why, what evil hath he done? But they cried out the more, saying, Let him be crucified.
I use to think, "I am so glad that I was not present and consenting unto Christ’s death as were the Jews, but finally I realized that he came to die for sin, not Jewish sin, nor Gentile sin, but sin. Humbly I accepted that my sins were at the foot of the cross, and that I was in absentia just as guilty as anyone...

Seems to me your reasoning is unfounded, and that you believe that to be a Good Jew, you need a scapegoat. God has commanded me to love and respect the Jews, and I do. But to this day, they struggle with holiness issues just as much as the next person. Thank God that in Christ, there is neither Jew nor Gentile, male nor female; we are all in the same boat struggling to love God the best way that we know how...

It is not your conversion to Judaism that I have a problem with, it's your demonstrated anger with where you came from... Just keeping it real...

I have great admiration for his teaching, and fashion much of my worldview after his example.

Christian, A follower of Christ: If your world view is fashioned preponderantly after Christ, then you are just as Christian as I am... Still I love the Jews. My master was a son of Abraham...

[Chappie]

Hebrews 1:3: 3Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:

Genesis 1:26/27: 26And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. 27So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

Seems to me we are not applying the principle apparent between Hebrews 1:3; and Genesis 1:26-27

[NormATive]

If it is true that you converted from Christianity, as Jewish as you want to be, your immediate ancestors were Christians. Your new faith is not a good reason for you to demean your old.

Show me where I am demeaning my old faith. If you equate not believing in it as the same as demeaning, then YOU are the one with the problem, not I.

This accusation of the Jews killing God is unfortunate and not of God

So, you too find the Gospel of John incorrect?

Just as un-godly as the Jews reluctance to see God's grace extended to the gentiles.

Where do you get that? We pray for the Gentiles every day to remove the scales from their eyes that they may see the error of their ways and accept the Grace of G-d in Judaism. They are following a false prophet, and for that, we are encouraged (in the Talmud) to show compassion, for they are merely deceived.

We all suffer from being human, Jew and Gentile alike. The faith that Jesus practices, don't remember any instance where Jesus commended the Pharisees or the chief priest of his day, He did not come to embrace the old ways, but to change them.

Jesus condemned the Pharisees for hypocracy and lying, not for being faithful. Again, please show me where Jesus denied his faith.

Seems to me your reasoning is unfounded, and that you believe that to be a Good Jew, you need a scapegoat.

Please stop putting words in my mouth. I don't know why you think it necessay to paint me as a Christian hater. To be a good Jew, one must love the L-rd G-d with all one's heart, obey the Law, seek justice and peace for humanity and walk humbly with G-d while awaiting the World to Come.

But to this day, they struggle with holiness issues just as much as the next person. Thank God that in Christ, there is neither Jew nor Gentile, male nor female; we are all in the same boat struggling to love God the best way that we know how...

You see, this is the thing of which Jesus was condemning the Pharisees he encoutered. They thought they were "holy" and everyone else was unclean because G-d did not favor them. G-d's forgiveness is for everyone, not just a select few who deem themselves holy.

It is not your conversion to Judaism that I have a problem with, it's your demonstrated anger with where you came from... Just keeping it real...

Again, where are you seeing anger? I am not angry. You are seeing anger where there is only disagreement. I simply don't believe that Jesus was the messiah, nor that any human CAN be the messiah. And this is an understanding that many Jews share today. You really should move beyond this unrealistic view of Jews you seem to possess.

Christian, A follower of Christ: If your world view is fashioned preponderantly after Christ, then you are just as Christian as I am

Not quite. I believe in the egalitarianism, the reforms of Judaism and the social awareness in Jesus' example. But, since I don't believe in miracles (like walking on water, revivification, human sacrifice and faith healing), I cannot call myself a Christian according to the terms set forth by modern proponents.

My master was a son of Abraham...

...and observant of the Law right up until his death.

NORM

[DaveKicks]

I was preaching Sunday, got excited; and stated: Forgiveness of sin is not applied in this life, but rather in the life to come. In this life the law of the harvest applies. You will reap what you sow. The only mediation of this principle/law is applied only when we say "Lord have mercy on me". Mercy may be granted to lessen the severity of the consequences, but one way or another we will reap what we sow...

Do I need to recant these remarks/make correction?
Did I make a bo boo?

Hi Chappie! Mind if I take a quick stab at this?

I think you're largely correct but maybe you should extend both the reap/sow and forgiveness phases. Here's what I mean:

Reap/Sow: We reap what we sow here on earth inversely proportionally to the degree that we are able to avoid the consequences of our actions. In general, we do reap what we've sown but I know that I've committed sinful actions which I've been able to hide from earthly consequences. I've not reaped the physical consequences of those actions, but they do eat at my soul and I reap a different kind of reward for them.

I think there's also an eternal consequence for our temporal actions as well. Both Jesus and Paul seem to have intended for us to understand that our position in the kingdom of heaven - independent of our salvation - will be determined by our faithfulness on earth.* I don't think we escape the reaping/sowing once we've gone to be with Christ.

Forgiveness: The fruits of our salvation, though we won't see them fully until we're with Christ, are tangible today. Christ said that eternal life is to know (present tense) God (John 17:3). Our salvation is something for the here and now, not just the future.

___________________
*Even so, all our golden crowns will be cast down at Jesus' feet. If eternal rewards are pursued for their own sake, we've missed the point entirely.

[Chappie]

Hi Chappie! Mind if I take a quick stab at this?

I think you're largely correct but maybe you should extend both the reap/sow and forgiveness phases. Here's what I mean:

Reap/Sow: We reap what we sow here on earth inversely proportionally to the degree that we are able to avoid the consequences of our actions. In general, we do reap what we've sown but I know that I've committed sinful actions which I've been able to hide from earthly consequences. I've not reaped the physical consequences of those actions, but they do eat at my soul and I reap a different kind of reward for them.I think there's also an eternal consequence for our temporal actions as well. Both Jesus and Paul seem to have intended for us to understand that our position in the kingdom of heaven - independent of our salvation - will be determined by our faithfulness on earth.* I don't think we escape the reaping/sowing once we've gone to be with Christ.

Forgiveness: The fruits of our salvation, though we won't see them fully until we're with Christ, are tangible today. Christ said that eternal life is to know (present tense) God (John 17:3). Our salvation is something for the here and now, not just the future.

___________________
*Even so, all our golden crowns will be cast down at Jesus' feet. If eternal rewards are pursued for their own sake, we've missed the point entirely.

Your response has given me pause for consideration: A tad more depth than I had considered. IOW., I like it.

I've not reaped the physical consequences of those actions, but they do eat at my soul and I reap a different kind of reward for them. This I had considered, and IMHO fits nicely with the concept of reap/sow. I was not applying the eye for an eye concept, Your mental anguish, have you considered it to be an appropriate or applicable consequence. And as we grow in Christ, do you feel that his love and mercy lessens this consequence day by day...

I rather teach that if Christ has forgiven us the penalty of our transgressions, that we must necessarily forgive ourselves and cast aside the thoughts that produce the the guilt that binds us. If we do not do that we miss out on the joy of our salvation that is Christ's gift to believers. IOW, I do not believe that we have to place our consequences in a physical transgression must reap a physical transgression. (Transgression/consequence is as far as we need dissect it.)

I do not disagree with anything that you have stated, just wanted to see the thoughts that your post generated in me in writing next to your thoughts…

[Chappie]

Again, where are you seeing anger? I am not angry. You are seeing anger where there is only disagreement. I simply don't believe that Jesus was the messiah, nor that any human CAN be the messiah. And this is an understanding that many Jews share today. You really should move beyond this unrealistic view of Jews you seem to possess.

And you cannot believe this because of what? Is this just a personal opinion? Do you deny the integrity of the apostles? Why? What evidence do you have to support the integrity of Moses, and the other OT prophets that is missing when you look at the Christ and the apostles? What renders the OT as an irrefutable work of God that is missing in the OT?

Perhaps you are not angry, but you are disrespectful to scripture that you have chosen to disregard. What tells you that a man cannot be the Messiah, does God suffer from a handicap in this regard. Where does the OT deny Jesus as the Christ?

Why do you think I asked you whither you were a Jew by birth or conversion? It is because something in your conversation suggests to me that you are a proselyte. Out of High school I went to work for two magnificent men of the Jewish faith. I grew from as janitor to a machinist to a foreman to a shop superintendent supervising over 2,000 employees, and finally became a business partner. My views of Jews is just as/or more realistic than yours.

If your anger/disrespect towards Christianity is not apparent to you, it is apparent to others…

[Rdr. Arsenios]

I rather teach that if Christ has forgiven us the penalty of our transgressions,
that we must necessarily forgive ourselves
and cast aside the thoughts that produce the the guilt that binds us.

If we do not do that we miss out on the joy of our salvation
that is Christ's gift to believers.

IOW, I do not believe that we have to place our consequences
in [that] a physical transgression must reap a physical transgression.
(Transgression/consequence is as far as we need dissect it.)

Guilt and shame are our treasury, my brother...
Self-forgiveness is not God's forgiveness...
The peace of Christ is not a matter of human understanding...

If we live in sorrow for our sins,
We will find joy in Christ...

And if we forgive ourselves,
We will find sorrow in Christ...

One of the great names for Orthodox Cathedrals is:

"The Joy of All Who Sorrow"

As Paul writes: "I boast in my infirmities..."
And another Saint wrote: "Keep your mind in hell, and do not despair."

NEVER forgive yourself,
And never FORGET
God forgives ALL

Your sins are not yours to forgive,
Because they are against God
"Against Thee only have I sinned
and done this evil before Thee..."

The medicines of the healing of the soul
Are not the medicines of sweetness...

"He who sows with tears...
Reaps with joy..."

That joy is from God...
We cannot steal it by self-forgiveness

But can only seek it
In self-condemnation and self-denial...

And this requires a profound humility
And genuine sorrow for our sins

"For my sin is ever before me..."
This is the walk-way to God's joy...

Arsenios

[Chappie]

[SIZE="3"]Guilt and shame are our treasury, my brother...
Self-forgiveness is not God's forgiveness...
The peace of Christ is not a matter of human understanding...

IOW, if we ain’t suffering, we ain't saved...
"Self-forgiveness is not God's forgiveness..." I agree. Still a servant drowning in guilt makes a poor witness for Christ. Everything that we do has limitations, we should be ever mindful of that...
The peace of Christ does not require understanding in order to be felt...

If we live in sorrow for our sins,
We will find joy in Christ...

If Christ desires my sorrow, but I refuse to live in sorrow of my own volition... Perhaps that works for you, it does not work for me...

And if we forgive ourselves,
We will find sorrow in Christ...

Repentance is sufficient. God no longer requires us to throw dirt on our heads and beat ourselves on our backs...

One of the great names for Orthodox Cathedrals is:

"The Joy of All Who Sorrow"

As Paul writes: "I boast in my infirmities..."
And another Saint wrote: "Keep your mind in hell, and do not despair."

Just because we boast in them does not mean that we should not try to overcome them.
Sounds like a man made saint to me... Me I rather keep my mind on the things of God...

NEVER forgive yourself,
And never FORGET
God forgives ALL

As God forgives me, he expects me to live a forgiven life. I hate pity parties, which is the result of languishing in sins that God has forgiven. If we confess our sins, he is faithful to forgive us, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Your sins are not yours to forgive,
Because they are against God
"Against Thee only have I sinned
and done this evil before Thee..."

And if the one that I sinned against forgives me, what right have I to resist the wisdom and grace of what he has done...

The medicines of the healing of the soul
Are not the medicines of sweetness...

"He who sows with tears...
Reaps with joy..."

And there is a time for every time under the sun, the tears necessarily give way to Joy... You tend to think that Christ-likeness demands that we hold on to the tears...

That joy is from God...
We cannot steal it by self-forgiveness

Your agenda tends to twist what I have said. Never have I advocated that self-forgiveness replaces God's forgiveness. Necessarily, self-forgiveness follows God's forgiveness. Never does it precede it...

But can only seek it
In self-condemnation and self-denial...

And this requires a profound humility
And genuine sorrow for our sins

Your concept of humility requires us to continually beat up on ourselves. Genuine sorrow does not require us to wallow in the mud of our transgressions for life. Perhaps I should explain that for me self-forgiveness means that we cast of the consequences of the old life and walk in newness of life with Christ.

4And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:
5That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.
6Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought: