A Long Standing Argument....

[RBerman]

John 20:28

Then He said to Thomas, “Reach your finger here, and look at My hands; and reach your hand here, and put it into My side. Do not be unbelieving, but believing.” And Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!”

You propose that in this passage from John’s gospel Thomas confessed Jesus was Almighty God. John constructed his gospel purposefully and, presumably, one part does not undermine or contradict another part. His description of Thomas’s encounter with Jesus should be examined with this in mind. The interpretation you have given to Thomas’ words is cast in a different light when examined against two other passages in the gospel (see below). It should also be kept in mind that Thomas’ exclamation was a result of him being caught off balance, after doubting what his fellow disciples had told him about Jesus being resurrected. John’s reason for recording this encounter was to enable Jesus to make his point: “Thomas, because you have seen me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.” (John 20:29)

You can try to explain it away all day long, Antony. The bottom line is that Thomas identified Jesus as his God, and Jesus praised Thomas.

Jesus’ enemies accused him of claiming he was God. John’s gospel tells us how he dealt with this accusation:

John 10:32-39

Jesus answered them, "I have shown you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you going to stone me?" 33The Jews answered him, "It is not for a good work that we are going to stone you but for blasphemy, because you, being a man, make yourself God." 34Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your Law, 'I said, you are gods'? 35If he called them gods to whom the word of God came—and Scripture cannot be broken— 36do you say of him whom the Father consecrated and sent into the world, 'You are blaspheming,' because I said, 'I am the Son of God'? 37 If I am not doing the works of my Father, then do not believe me; 38but if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me and I am in the Father." 39 Again they sought to arrest him, but he escaped from their hands.

Jesus rejected both the proposition that he was God and the accusation that he claimed to be God. However you attribute to Thomas what Jesus clearly rejected. Does this suggest there is something wrong with your interpretation of what Thomas meant? As Jesus himself deduced from the OT, he was a “god” to the extent that the word of God had come to him, or that he had been sent by God. The same can be applied to Moses and the prophets “to whom the word of God came.” But “god” in this sense is not Almighty God.

Jesus did not reject his unique oneness with the Father; quite the contrary, he proclaimed it, starting with Nicodemus in John 3. The Jews understood that "The Father is in me, and I am in the Father" was a claim of divinity, which is why, after hearing his explanation, "they sought to arrest him." As I noted earlier in the thread, previous prophets like Moses instructed men to believe in God, whereas Jesus instructed the people to believe in himself. The only reason this was not blasphemy is that Jesus is God. This is totally consistent with the worship of Thomas which Jesus praises.

John’s gospel states that “No one has seen God at any time” (John 1:18), a point John repeats in one of his letters:

12 No one has seen God at any time. If we love one another, God abides in us, and His love has been perfected in us.
13 By this we know that we abide in Him, and He in us, because He has given us of His Spirit. (1John 4:12)

If long after the resurrection John was able to write that “no one has seen God at any time”, then this in itself rules out the interpretation that you have given to John 20:28.

Nonesense. "God" is used throughout the New Testament to refer to God the Father. And John's comments must be taken within the context of all of Scripture. The most natural reading of Genesis 3 is that Adam saw God in some human form. The Lord appeared to Abraham in Genesis 18 as one of three men. Moses was exposed to God's "back" in Exodus 33, which chapter also indicates that Moses interacted "face to face" with God's Shekinah glory in the Tent of Meeting. Isaiah "saw the Lord" in Isaiah 6. Daniel saw the Ancient of Days in Daniel 7. John himself saw God seated on his throne in Revelation 4. So when John 1:18 and 1 John 4:12 say that no one has seen God, they are speaking of the unique way that God is revealed in Christ; the unique thing about Christ is not that he had a message from God, but that in Christ, God became a man; the Word that "was with God and was God" also "became flesh and dwelt among us."

Isaiah gave a number of appellations to one who was to come, including that of “mighty God.” (Isaiah 9:6) No one up to and including Jesus’ time ever thought Isaiah was referring to anything other than a man.
.

That is true. Many things about the coming of Christ were totally missed by Jewish interpreters of previous generations. And yet once Jesus came, in retrospect, the disciples in Acts are repeatedly shown as proving, from the Old Testament, that Jesus was the Promised One, the Suffering Servant, the Mashiach.

[Antony]

Jesus did not reject his unique oneness with the Father; quite the contrary, he proclaimed it, starting with Nicodemus in John 3. The Jews understood that "The Father is in me, and I am in the Father" was a claim of divinity, which is why, after hearing his explanation, "they sought to arrest him." As I noted earlier in the thread, previous prophets like Moses instructed men to believe in God, whereas Jesus instructed the people to believe in himself. The only reason this was not blasphemy is that Jesus is God. This is totally consistent with the worship of Thomas which Jesus praises.

R Berman,

There are several parts of your Post 91 that warrant query. I would like to deal with one those parts firstly, namely the above quotation.

The quotation is your response to my comments on John 10:32-39. This is the passage where Jesus’ enemies accused him of claiming he was God, a proposition which I said Jesus rejected.

Are you saying that in fact Jesus agreed with his accusers, apart from their labelling of it as blasphemy?
.

[RBerman]

There are several parts of your Post 91 that warrant query. I would like to deal with one those parts firstly, namely the above quotation. The quotation is your response to my comments on John 10:32-39. This is the passage where Jesus’ enemies accused him of claiming he was God, a proposition which I said Jesus rejected. Are you saying that in fact Jesus agreed with his accusers, apart from their labelling of it as blasphemy?.

Yes. Jesus claimed things of himself that went far beyond being a prophet with a message from God. He demanded belief in himself. He was not only God's son, but God's only-begotten son.

[Antony]

Yes. Jesus claimed things of himself that went far beyond being a prophet with a message from God. He demanded belief in himself. He was not only God's son, but God's only-begotten son.

Think for yourself

Re John 10:32-39 , did Jesus agree with his accusers except for the labelling, as RBerman claims, or did Jesus tell his accusers they were wrong and if they knew their Scriptures they would know the difference between “a god, the son of God,” and God almighty?

I suggest those interested should read this passage in John’s gospel and make their own judgement. If one can dispense with the mindset that all too often clouds Bible interpretation and read what is in front of them, what Jesus said is quite clear.


God’s only-begotten son

When applied to Jesus, the phrase “only-begotten son” is equivalent to “first born from the dead.”

Acts 13:33 states explicitly that Jesus became the begotten son of God on the day he was resurrected:

God ... has raised up Jesus. As it is also written in the second Psalm:
‘You are My Son, Today I have begotten You.’

or as Revelation 1:5 puts it:

the first begotten of the dead

[RBerman]

Re John 10:32-39 , did Jesus agree with his accusers except for the labelling, as RBerman claims, or did Jesus tell his accusers they were wrong and if they knew their Scriptures they would know the difference between “a god, the son of God,” and God almighty?

I suggest those interested should read this passage in John’s gospel and make their own judgment. If one can dispense with the mindset that all too often clouds Bible interpretation and read what is in front of them, what Jesus said is quite clear.

There's nothing of substance here; you're just saying that you disagree with me. Each of us believes the other has a mindset which "clouds Bible interpretation."

When applied to Jesus, the phrase “only-begotten son” is equivalent to “first born from the dead.” Acts 13:33 states explicitly that Jesus became the begotten son of God on the day he was resurrected: "God ... has raised up Jesus. As it is also written in the second Psalm: ‘You are My Son, Today I have begotten You.’" or as Revelation 1:5 puts it: "the first begotten of the dead"

Neither Acts 13 nor Revelation 1 calls Jesus "only-begotten." You are aware that "only" and "first" don't mean the same thing, aren't you?

[Antony]

There's nothing of substance here; you're just saying that you disagree with me. Each of us believes the other has a mindset which "clouds Bible interpretation."



Neither Acts 13 nor Revelation 1 calls Jesus "only-begotten." You are aware that "only" and "first" don't mean the same thing, aren't you?

RBerman

Re: your post 95 and my post 94


1. TW followers of this thread are in a position to make an objective assessment on who has a “mindset” that clouds Bible interpretation. All they have to do is read John 10:32-39 carefully, and see there if Jesus agreed with his accusers, which is your claim for this passage, or that he rebutted his accusers, which is how I read the passage.


2. What my Post 94 said is: When applied to Jesus, the phrase “only-begotten son” is equivalent to “first born from the dead.” Acts 13:33 states explicitly that Jesus became the begotten son of God on the day he was resurrected: "God ... has raised up Jesus. As it is also written in the second Psalm: ‘You are My Son, Today I have begotten You.’" or as Revelation 1:5 puts it: "the first begotten of the dead".


3. According to Paul, quoting Psalm 2:7, it was the day of the resurrection that God “begot” his son Jesus. Elsewhere, in Col 1:18, Paul describes Jesus as the “firstborn from the dead.” As for John, in the early chapters of his gospel he calls Jesus the “only begotten” son of God, and later in Rev 1:5 the “first begotten from the dead.”


4. The following questions provide a constructive way of examining this issue:

a. Did Paul say God “begot” his son Jesus on the day of his resurrection?

b. Elsewhere did Paul describe Jesus as the “first born” from the dead?

c. Did John describe Jesus as the “only begotten son of God”?

d. Elsewhere did John describe Jesus as the “first begotten from the dead”?

e. According to these texts do both the descriptions of Jesus being “begotten” of God and the “first born from the dead” stem from the resurrection?

f. Was Jesus the “first” born from the dead, and at that time the “only” one begotten from the dead?

5. It might be mentioned here that it is Jesus’ crucifixion / resurrection that is central to the apostles’ message, not his birth.

[RBerman]

When applied to Jesus, the phrase “only-begotten son” is equivalent to “first born from the dead.” Acts 13:33 states explicitly that Jesus became the begotten son of God on the day he was resurrected: "God ... has raised up Jesus. As it is also written in the second Psalm: ‘You are My Son, Today I have begotten You.’" or as Revelation 1:5 puts it: "the first begotten of the dead".

Stringing together a bunch of texts that share a vocabulary word is not the same thing as making an argument. Whom is Psalm 2 addressing, and what does it mean? On what basis do you say that "only-begotten Son" is equivalent to "firstborn from the dead"? As for Acts 13:33, see below.

3. According to Paul, quoting Psalm 2:7, it was the day of the resurrection that God “begot” his son Jesus. Elsewhere, in Col 1:18, Paul describes Jesus as the “firstborn from the dead.” As for John, in the early chapters of his gospel he calls Jesus the “only begotten” son of God, and later in Rev 1:5 the “first begotten from the dead.”

Acts 13:33 does not say that Jesus became Son of God upon his resurrection. It's one of a string of OT quotations to show that Jesus is the messiah, the heir of David, whom God promised to protect from death. His resurrection was evidence of who and what he already was. Thus Romans 1:4 says that Jesus' resurrection declared that he was the Son of God.

Did Paul say God “begot” his son Jesus on the day of his resurrection?

No.

Elsewhere did Paul describe Jesus as the “first born” from the dead?

Let's talk about that. Which Scripture did you have in mind?

Did John describe Jesus as the “only begotten son of God”?

Yes. And what did he mean?

Elsewhere did John describe Jesus as the “first begotten from the dead”?

Yes. And what did he mean?

According to these texts do both the descriptions of Jesus being “begotten” of God and the “first born from the dead” stem from the resurrection?

No.

Was Jesus the “first” born from the dead, and at that time the “only” one begotten from the dead?

No; Scripture never describes Jesus as the "only begotten from the dead."

5. It might be mentioned here that it is Jesus’ crucifixion / resurrection that is central to the apostles’ message, not his birth.

Jesus' birth was a necessary step for his eventual crucifixion, but I agree that his death and resurrection is the focus. Besides which, the sense in which Jesus is the "only begotten Son" or the "firstborn over all creation" has nothing to do with his physical birth, but with his eternal status as the Son of God.

[Antony]

According to Paul, quoting Psalm 2:7, it was the day of the resurrection that God “begot” his son Jesus. Elsewhere, in Col 1:18, Paul describes Jesus as the “firstborn from the dead.” As for John, in the early chapters of his gospel he calls Jesus the “only begotten” son of God, and later in Rev 1:5 the “first begotten from the dead.”

Acts 13:33 does not say that Jesus became Son of God upon his resurrection. It's one of a string of OT quotations to show that Jesus is the messiah, the heir of David, whom God promised to protect from death. His resurrection was evidence of who and what he already was. Thus Romans 1:4 says that Jesus' resurrection declared that he was the Son of God.

Did Paul say God “begot” his son Jesus on the day of his resurrection?

No.

Acts 13:29-33

29 Now when they had fulfilled all that was written concerning Him, they took Him down from the tree and laid Him in a tomb.

30 But God raised Him from the dead.

31 He was seen for many days by those who came up with Him from Galilee to Jerusalem, who are His witnesses to the people.

32 And we declare to you glad tidings—that promise which was made to the fathers.

33 God has fulfilled this for us their children, in that He has raised up Jesus. As it is also written in the second Psalm:

‘ You are My Son,
Today I have begotten You.’

RBerman,

In Post 97 you flatly rejected the proposition that Acts 13:33 says God “begot” his son Jesus on the day of his resurrection (see quote above).

So when Paul attributes to God the words, “You are my son, today I have begotten you,” what “day” is referred to when the “begotten” took place if not the day of the resurrection?

[RBerman]

Acts 13:29-33

29 Now when they had fulfilled all that was written concerning Him, they took Him down from the tree and laid Him in a tomb.
30 But God raised Him from the dead.
31 He was seen for many days by those who came up with Him from Galilee to Jerusalem, who are His witnesses to the people.
32 And we declare to you glad tidings—that promise which was made to the fathers.
33 God has fulfilled this for us their children, in that He has raised up Jesus. As it is also written in the second Psalm:

‘ You are My Son,
Today I have begotten You.’

RBerman, in Post 97 you flatly rejected the proposition that Acts 13:33 says God “begot” his son Jesus on the day of his resurrection (see quote above). So when Paul attributes to God the words, “You are my son, today I have begotten you,” what “day” is referred to when the “begotten” took place if not the day of the resurrection?

You misconstrue Paul's point when you look for a specific "today" with regard to Christ. Paul is quoting Psalm 2, which refers to the Davidic king of Israel as the ceremonial "son of God" (2 Samuel 7:14), the federal head of Israel, which corporately was the child of God. In the case of the Davidic king, he became "son of God" upon his coronation. With respect to Jesus, Paul's point is not that Jesus became the "son of God" on one day or another day. Rather, Jesus' resurrection justifies his claims that he already was divine, already was "the Son of God." Thus he was called "Son of God" by himself and others long before his resurrection. (e.g. John 1:34; 5:18-25; 10:36; 11:27; etc) Paul cites the resurrection of Christ, both in Acts 13 and in Romans 1:4, as evidence/declaration that Jesus really was what he claimed to be before his death and resurrection.

[xcav8tor]

Hi religi-ninja,

Just recently came across your thread, so before I made comment I wanted to catch up on what had taken place so far. You have many valid questions and I will attempt to give you some answers (in order) from a conservative Christian perspective (though I can see you have already had some excellent input from fm93 and RBerman already). I will try not to dwell here on the subject of the Trinity, however. For my comments on the Trinity as compared to the Mormon view of God, I would invite you to read my posts on the Basketball Court debate (starting with http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/sh...16#post2552316 ). I think you might find some answers to your difficulties there (especially with regard to Christ’s claim to deity in John 10 where Jesus claims to be “one” with the Father).

Having differing views on religion is bound to put stress on a marriage because you do not see eye to eye on the basics of what life is all about. That is why the Bible advises believers not to be unequally yoked with unbelievers. This is the same problem whether it is between:
a Christian and an atheist (a believer with an unbeliever),
a Christian and an orthodox Jew (same God, but different stages of revelation),
an orthodox Christian and a Jehovah’s Witness (incompatible views of God, Christ and the Gospel -
in your case, a Baptist and a Reform LDS – did I get that right?)
or between a Christian and a Hindu or Muslim (someone of an entirely different faith altogether).
The tension will remain until one changes their beliefs in favour of the other’s perspective (trying to avoid the issue by not talking it out will merely suppress the tension – not eliminate it) – not an easy task as both have invested a lifetime forming their particular worldview (both emotionally and intellectually) and such change has to be genuine.

[ The differences between orthodox Christian denominations does not typically cause this level of discord because although mainline denominations may differ on minor issues (ie, baptizing infants or adults, women’s role in ministry, gifts of the Spirit for today), they do agree on the essential doctrines which define the Christian faith (Monotheism, The Trinity, The Deity of Christ, His Bodily Resurrection, Salvation by Faith Alone, and so on).]

As I see it, as much as you are willing to accept your wife’s faith, you cannot do so with so many questions left unresolved. You need Christianity to “make sense” to you before you can embrace it. You already believe the OT to be the Word of God, and you have high regard for Jesus, but you have reservations about His deity and whether it is right to worship Him. Do I understand you so far?

You also said that you believe the Bible appears to contradicts itself (ie. saying only God should be worshipped, yet Christ should be worshipped), and that you are looking for answers. The lack of answers from the leadership in your church caused your faith to waver and has only added to your confusion. I will try to offer solutions to some of the questions I have found in your posts, and hopefully show you that God’s Word does not contradict itself – the problem lies with our faulty assumptions or misinterpretations of the text, often due to our lack of understanding of the context. I’m not claiming to have all the answers (none of us does), but hopefully my sharing answers that I have come across over the years may benefit to you as well.

I will follow up ASAP with a post of Q and A, but would like to offer this thought to start off.

I understand your reticence to worship Jesus Christ because you do not yet appreciate how modestly He went about asserting His deity (ie He didn’t run down the street shouting “I am God, I am God”). He was more subtle, speaking about His existing eternally before Abraham (John 8:56-59 NIV) and sharing the Father’s glory before the world began (John 17:5 NIV), His ability to forgive sin (Luke 5:20-25 NIV), His calling God “Father” making Himself equal with God (John 5:18 NIV), His being the Judge of all mankind (John 5:22, 27 NIV), along with other prerogatives of God alone – like raising the dead (John 5:28-29 NIV). But to me, the easiest way to resolve this issue is the Bible’s testimony that Jesus is the direct Creator of the universe, and if He is our Creator (along with the Father), surely there can be no doubt that He is entitled to our worship. The Bible is very clear on this point:

John 1:1-3 NIV In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

Heb. 1:1-3 NIV In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven.

Col. 1:15-17 NIV He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

Now keep in mind that GOD ALONE created the universe:

Isa. 44:24 NIV This is what the LORD says—your Redeemer, who formed you in the womb: I am the LORD, who has made all things, who ALONE stretched out the heavens, who spread out the earth BY MYSELF.

Now if the LORD (YHWH in the Hebrew) “ALONE” made all things, who “ALONE” stretched out the heavens and spread the earth “BY MYSELF,” and yet JESUS is the one through whom all things were made, and through whom YHWH made the universe, and BY JESUS all things were created in heaven and on earth, created BY HIM AND FOR HIM, and JESUS IS BEFORE ALL THINGS, then… JESUS IS ALSO THE SAME YHWH who CREATED ALL THINGS. As our Creator, He is also OUR GOD, and is therefore entitled to our worship.

This is confirmed by Rev. 5:11-14 NIV

Then I looked and heard the voice of many angels, numbering thousands upon thousands, and ten thousand times ten thousand. They encircled the throne and the living creatures and the elders. In a loud voice they sang: "Worthy is the Lamb, who was slain, to receive power and wealth and wisdom and strength and honour and glory and praise!" Then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all that is in them, singing: "To him who sits on the throne AND TO THE Lamb be praise and honour and glory and power, for ever and ever!" The four living creatures said, "Amen," and the elders fell down and worshipped.

Every creature in heaven and earth and all that is in them will one day JOINTLY worship God The Father AND the Lamb (Jesus), and worship that is offered to The Father can ONLY be worship in the HIGHEST SENSE of the term. Also notice that Jesus is neither refusing nor rebuking this worship. That’s good enough for me (especially in light of God’s command in Heb. 1:5-8 NIV).

The Trinity doctrine being true, The Father is YHWH, Jesus is YHWH, and The Holy Spirit is YHWH, yet there is ONLY ONE ENTITY in view. THREE persons, ONE being, or IOW, THREE “who’s” and ONE “what.” You might find it helpful to think of it this way - YHWH ALONE is the CREATOR (just as the Bible says), yet each person within the Godhead performs a different function: YHWH the Father is the Architect (Prov. 3:19 NIV, Isa. 40:12 NIV), YHWH the Son is the Builder (John 1:1-3 NIV), and YHWH the Spirit serves as the Facilitator or Coordinator (Gen. 1:3 NIV). Each handles a different aspect of creation, yet only one being - YHWH - is our Creator (Gen. 1:1 NIV).

Anyway, that’s enough for now.

Regards,
xcav8tor

[religi-ninja]

But doesn't the Scriptures say that "all may honor the Son as they honor the Father" (John 5:23)? Considering that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, and that he is the full image of God, I don't see a big problem. He sent Jesus so that He may be honored trough Him. He that honors the son honors the Father and the one that dishonors the Son dishonors the Father who sent him, or am I not telling the truth? If you have problems praying to Jesus .. then don't pray to Him, pray to the Father, if that makes any difference to you. I don't think someone is going to condemn you for praying to the Father instead of to the Son.

We've already explained this to RN, but yes, that's correct.

I'm not sure it's ever really been worded that way. See, To me it must be clear that the Father is God and that TO GOD it is okay that I forsake His son. It's the authenticity of Jesus' role in the world that worries me. If he truly is THE Son of God, and not in the sense in which we are all sons of God, then am I making a mistake by only acknowledging God? My wife's church teaches that God will not look upon sin, and as such, you can only pray to Jesus because God will not listen to our prayers unless they are relayed through Jesus. Thus is the major problem. She thinks I am going to hell because of this.

I just want to make sure you are saying, even from a Christian standpoint, that praying to God is perfectly acceptable.

[religi-ninja]

Hi religi-ninja,

Just recently came across your thread, so before I made comment I wanted to catch up on what had taken place so far. You have many valid questions and I will attempt to give you some answers (in order) from a conservative Christian perspective (though I can see you have already had some excellent input from fm93 and RBerman already). I will try not to dwell here on the subject of the Trinity, however. For my comments on the Trinity as compared to the Mormon view of God, I would invite you to read my posts on the Basketball Court debate (starting with http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/sh...16#post2552316 ). I think you might find some answers to your difficulties there (especially with regard to Christ’s claim to deity in John 10 where Jesus claims to be “one” with the Father).

Having differing views on religion is bound to put stress on a marriage because you do not see eye to eye on the basics of what life is all about. That is why the Bible advises believers not to be unequally yoked with unbelievers. This is the same problem whether it is between:
a Christian and an atheist (a believer with an unbeliever),
a Christian and an orthodox Jew (same God, but different stages of revelation),
an orthodox Christian and a Jehovah’s Witness (incompatible views of God, Christ and the Gospel -
in your case, a Baptist and a Reform LDS – did I get that right?)
or between a Christian and a Hindu or Muslim (someone of an entirely different faith altogether).
The tension will remain until one changes their beliefs in favour of the other’s perspective (trying to avoid the issue by not talking it out will merely suppress the tension – not eliminate it) – not an easy task as both have invested a lifetime forming their particular worldview (both emotionally and intellectually) and such change has to be genuine.

[ The differences between orthodox Christian denominations does not typically cause this level of discord because although mainline denominations may differ on minor issues (ie, baptizing infants or adults, women’s role in ministry, gifts of the Spirit for today), they do agree on the essential doctrines which define the Christian faith (Monotheism, The Trinity, The Deity of Christ, His Bodily Resurrection, Salvation by Faith Alone, and so on).]

As I see it, as much as you are willing to accept your wife’s faith, you cannot do so with so many questions left unresolved. You need Christianity to “make sense” to you before you can embrace it. You already believe the OT to be the Word of God, and you have high regard for Jesus, but you have reservations about His deity and whether it is right to worship Him. Do I understand you so far?

You also said that you believe the Bible appears to contradicts itself (ie. saying only God should be worshipped, yet Christ should be worshipped), and that you are looking for answers. The lack of answers from the leadership in your church caused your faith to waver and has only added to your confusion. I will try to offer solutions to some of the questions I have found in your posts, and hopefully show you that God’s Word does not contradict itself – the problem lies with our faulty assumptions or misinterpretations of the text, often due to our lack of understanding of the context. I’m not claiming to have all the answers (none of us does), but hopefully my sharing answers that I have come across over the years may benefit to you as well.

I will follow up ASAP with a post of Q and A, but would like to offer this thought to start off.

I understand your reticence to worship Jesus Christ because you do not yet appreciate how modestly He went about asserting His deity (ie He didn’t run down the street shouting “I am God, I am God”). He was more subtle, speaking about His existing eternally before Abraham (John 8:56-59 NIV) and sharing the Father’s glory before the world began (John 17:5 NIV), His ability to forgive sin (Luke 5:20-25 NIV), His calling God “Father” making Himself equal with God (John 5:18 NIV), His being the Judge of all mankind (John 5:22, 27 NIV), along with other prerogatives of God alone – like raising the dead (John 5:28-29 NIV). But to me, the easiest way to resolve this issue is the Bible’s testimony that Jesus is the direct Creator of the universe, and if He is our Creator (along with the Father), surely there can be no doubt that He is entitled to our worship. The Bible is very clear on this point:

John 1:1-3 NIV In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

Heb. 1:1-3 NIV In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven.

Col. 1:15-17 NIV He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

Now keep in mind that GOD ALONE created the universe:

Isa. 44:24 NIV This is what the LORD says—your Redeemer, who formed you in the womb: I am the LORD, who has made all things, who ALONE stretched out the heavens, who spread out the earth BY MYSELF.

Now if the LORD (YHWH in the Hebrew) “ALONE” made all things, who “ALONE” stretched out the heavens and spread the earth “BY MYSELF,” and yet JESUS is the one through whom all things were made, and through whom YHWH made the universe, and BY JESUS all things were created in heaven and on earth, created BY HIM AND FOR HIM, and JESUS IS BEFORE ALL THINGS, then… JESUS IS ALSO THE SAME YHWH who CREATED ALL THINGS. As our Creator, He is also OUR GOD, and is therefore entitled to our worship.

This is confirmed by Rev. 5:11-14 NIV

Then I looked and heard the voice of many angels, numbering thousands upon thousands, and ten thousand times ten thousand. They encircled the throne and the living creatures and the elders. In a loud voice they sang: "Worthy is the Lamb, who was slain, to receive power and wealth and wisdom and strength and honour and glory and praise!" Then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all that is in them, singing: "To him who sits on the throne AND TO THE Lamb be praise and honour and glory and power, for ever and ever!" The four living creatures said, "Amen," and the elders fell down and worshipped.

Every creature in heaven and earth and all that is in them will one day JOINTLY worship God The Father AND the Lamb (Jesus), and worship that is offered to The Father can ONLY be worship in the HIGHEST SENSE of the term. Also notice that Jesus is neither refusing nor rebuking this worship. That’s good enough for me (especially in light of God’s command in Heb. 1:5-8 NIV).

The Trinity doctrine being true, The Father is YHWH, Jesus is YHWH, and The Holy Spirit is YHWH, yet there is ONLY ONE ENTITY in view. THREE persons, ONE being, or IOW, THREE “who’s” and ONE “what.” You might find it helpful to think of it this way - YHWH ALONE is the CREATOR (just as the Bible says), yet each person within the Godhead performs a different function: YHWH the Father is the Architect (Prov. 3:19 NIV, Isa. 40:12 NIV), YHWH the Son is the Builder (John 1:1-3 NIV), and YHWH the Spirit serves as the Facilitator or Coordinator (Gen. 1:3 NIV). Each handles a different aspect of creation, yet only one being - YHWH - is our Creator (Gen. 1:1 NIV).

Anyway, that’s enough for now.

Regards,
xcav8tor

Thanks Craig. I appreciate your feedback. I was raised in a reformed view of the Latter Day Saints, yes, in fact the church was once called The Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Days Saints. I have long since been dissociated with the church because they could not answer questions. You are completely correct about that, and several other things you've picked up by reading through the threads.

A couple of things, though...

I do not have a problem with Christianity. I love the teachings of Jesus, and if everyone behaved how Jesus instructed us, then there would be world peace. I personally do my best every day to live by the teachings of Jesus. With that one exception of acknowledging him as God.

Curiously, and I do not hope to encourage further wrath then what is already on this board with this statement, but Christian monks throughout history forgave sin, and Catholic priests do it regularly every day by doling out predetermined prayers like writing sentences. If Jesus' diety is shown through this, then the Catholic church is a complete fraud (By the way, again, I do not hope to upset anyone, but I do feel that no man should ever receive the worship that the Pope does, nor his underlings archbishops, bishops, and priests. Other than my biological father, God is the only one I will ever refer to as father.

I would have to say that your explanation of the trinity is probably the most explained.

I find myself at a point in my faith, thanks in great part to those who have contributed to this discussion, where I could be swayed. I just have yet to receive a good enough persuasion to call Jesus my Lord and Savior.

I am definitely open to the idea, and already accept the concept of a godhead where "God" has two parts ---- the first being God the Creator, and the Second being the Holy Spirit, the breath of life breathed into our bodies and, I believe, the source of our souls.

I have lived a very full life and have been exposed to many different people and places throughout my life. I have lived through and witnessed the best of humankind, and the worst. Because of this, my heart has turned cold to the idea of ever excepting a man to be on the same level as my God. Hence my problem. The idea that a "man" deserves worship, be it the Pope, a priest, any saint, any of the Apostles/Disciples, or Jesus, to me is very unsettling.

This fills me with anxiety because of my strong belief that NO man should ever come before God. What if I am wrong? If I live and promote the teachings of Jesus, and love God more than anything in the world without accepting Christ as my Lord in place of God, will my wife be right? Will I be condemned to an eternity without my God?

Is she wrong? What if Jesus was that special messenger that came down to earth to promote the way of living God wants, and by saying he is the way, he was being literal. What if he was just saying that we should live the way he lived, and act the way he acted? What if we truly are supposed to do things my way? Would then my wife be condemned to the aforementioned eternity without God?

I know my concerns are repetitively mentioned here, but although some things have been explained, still others leave me wondering.

I appreciate your feedback, and look forward to more.

[religi-ninja]

Hi religi-ninja,

Just recently came across your thread, so before I made comment I wanted to catch up on what had taken place so far. You have many valid questions and I will attempt to give you some answers (in order) from a conservative Christian perspective (though I can see you have already had some excellent input from fm93 and RBerman already). I will try not to dwell here on the subject of the Trinity, however. For my comments on the Trinity as compared to the Mormon view of God, I would invite you to read my posts on the Basketball Court debate (starting with http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/sh...16#post2552316 ). I think you might find some answers to your difficulties there (especially with regard to Christ’s claim to deity in John 10 where Jesus claims to be “one” with the Father).

Having differing views on religion is bound to put stress on a marriage because you do not see eye to eye on the basics of what life is all about. That is why the Bible advises believers not to be unequally yoked with unbelievers. This is the same problem whether it is between:
a Christian and an atheist (a believer with an unbeliever),
a Christian and an orthodox Jew (same God, but different stages of revelation),
an orthodox Christian and a Jehovah’s Witness (incompatible views of God, Christ and the Gospel -
in your case, a Baptist and a Reform LDS – did I get that right?)
or between a Christian and a Hindu or Muslim (someone of an entirely different faith altogether).
The tension will remain until one changes their beliefs in favour of the other’s perspective (trying to avoid the issue by not talking it out will merely suppress the tension – not eliminate it) – not an easy task as both have invested a lifetime forming their particular worldview (both emotionally and intellectually) and such change has to be genuine.

[ The differences between orthodox Christian denominations does not typically cause this level of discord because although mainline denominations may differ on minor issues (ie, baptizing infants or adults, women’s role in ministry, gifts of the Spirit for today), they do agree on the essential doctrines which define the Christian faith (Monotheism, The Trinity, The Deity of Christ, His Bodily Resurrection, Salvation by Faith Alone, and so on).]

As I see it, as much as you are willing to accept your wife’s faith, you cannot do so with so many questions left unresolved. You need Christianity to “make sense” to you before you can embrace it. You already believe the OT to be the Word of God, and you have high regard for Jesus, but you have reservations about His deity and whether it is right to worship Him. Do I understand you so far?

You also said that you believe the Bible appears to contradicts itself (ie. saying only God should be worshipped, yet Christ should be worshipped), and that you are looking for answers. The lack of answers from the leadership in your church caused your faith to waver and has only added to your confusion. I will try to offer solutions to some of the questions I have found in your posts, and hopefully show you that God’s Word does not contradict itself – the problem lies with our faulty assumptions or misinterpretations of the text, often due to our lack of understanding of the context. I’m not claiming to have all the answers (none of us does), but hopefully my sharing answers that I have come across over the years may benefit to you as well.

I will follow up ASAP with a post of Q and A, but would like to offer this thought to start off.

I understand your reticence to worship Jesus Christ because you do not yet appreciate how modestly He went about asserting His deity (ie He didn’t run down the street shouting “I am God, I am God”). He was more subtle, speaking about His existing eternally before Abraham (John 8:56-59 NIV) and sharing the Father’s glory before the world began (John 17:5 NIV), His ability to forgive sin (Luke 5:20-25 NIV), His calling God “Father” making Himself equal with God (John 5:18 NIV), His being the Judge of all mankind (John 5:22, 27 NIV), along with other prerogatives of God alone – like raising the dead (John 5:28-29 NIV). But to me, the easiest way to resolve this issue is the Bible’s testimony that Jesus is the direct Creator of the universe, and if He is our Creator (along with the Father), surely there can be no doubt that He is entitled to our worship. The Bible is very clear on this point:

John 1:1-3 NIV In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

Heb. 1:1-3 NIV In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven.

Col. 1:15-17 NIV He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

Now keep in mind that GOD ALONE created the universe:

Isa. 44:24 NIV This is what the LORD says—your Redeemer, who formed you in the womb: I am the LORD, who has made all things, who ALONE stretched out the heavens, who spread out the earth BY MYSELF.

Now if the LORD (YHWH in the Hebrew) “ALONE” made all things, who “ALONE” stretched out the heavens and spread the earth “BY MYSELF,” and yet JESUS is the one through whom all things were made, and through whom YHWH made the universe, and BY JESUS all things were created in heaven and on earth, created BY HIM AND FOR HIM, and JESUS IS BEFORE ALL THINGS, then… JESUS IS ALSO THE SAME YHWH who CREATED ALL THINGS. As our Creator, He is also OUR GOD, and is therefore entitled to our worship.

This is confirmed by Rev. 5:11-14 NIV

Then I looked and heard the voice of many angels, numbering thousands upon thousands, and ten thousand times ten thousand. They encircled the throne and the living creatures and the elders. In a loud voice they sang: "Worthy is the Lamb, who was slain, to receive power and wealth and wisdom and strength and honour and glory and praise!" Then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all that is in them, singing: "To him who sits on the throne AND TO THE Lamb be praise and honour and glory and power, for ever and ever!" The four living creatures said, "Amen," and the elders fell down and worshipped.

Every creature in heaven and earth and all that is in them will one day JOINTLY worship God The Father AND the Lamb (Jesus), and worship that is offered to The Father can ONLY be worship in the HIGHEST SENSE of the term. Also notice that Jesus is neither refusing nor rebuking this worship. That’s good enough for me (especially in light of God’s command in Heb. 1:5-8 NIV).

The Trinity doctrine being true, The Father is YHWH, Jesus is YHWH, and The Holy Spirit is YHWH, yet there is ONLY ONE ENTITY in view. THREE persons, ONE being, or IOW, THREE “who’s” and ONE “what.” You might find it helpful to think of it this way - YHWH ALONE is the CREATOR (just as the Bible says), yet each person within the Godhead performs a different function: YHWH the Father is the Architect (Prov. 3:19 NIV, Isa. 40:12 NIV), YHWH the Son is the Builder (John 1:1-3 NIV), and YHWH the Spirit serves as the Facilitator or Coordinator (Gen. 1:3 NIV). Each handles a different aspect of creation, yet only one being - YHWH - is our Creator (Gen. 1:1 NIV).

Anyway, that’s enough for now.

Regards,
xcav8tor

Yes, I am a former (former for MANY years) RLDS church member. I no longer go to that church or any other.

You were right about many things, but I do have one immediate question.

If forgiving sin signifies Jesus specialness, then why are Catholic clergy doing this, handing out pre-scripted prayers like writing sentences? Wouldn't that make the Catholic church a fallicy? (I do not mean to upset anyone, it's just a serious problem I have with accepting that ANY man on earth deserves worship)

I love and follow Jesus teachings and promote what he taught, with that one major exception of accepting him as my Lord and Savior. I will never call someone on earth Father (except for my Dad).

I am at a point where I could be swayed, if someone were able to sway me. I believe in the concept of a godhead - The first part being God the creator and major presence in the OT, the second part being the Holy Spirit - the compassionate side of God and (I believe) the source of our souls ( I truly believe that we all have a little part of God in us, a fingerprint left over fro our creation if you will).

But what if my wife is right?

Even though the only thing that separates me from a Christian is the fact that I do not fully consider Jesus to actually be God.... is that enough to send me to an eternity without God's presence?

What if I'm right? What if Jesus said I am the way, and meant it literally, as in do as I do, act as I act, conduct as I conduct, believe as I believe.... All of that but not put me before God, worship and pray to me before God, call me your savior and not God...

Then will my wife and you and Christianity spend that eternity without the presence of God?

[One Bad Pig]

If forgiving sin signifies Jesus specialness, then why are Catholic clergy doing this, handing out pre-scripted prayers like writing sentences? Wouldn't that make the Catholic church a fallicy? (I do not mean to upset anyone, it's just a serious problem I have with accepting that ANY man on earth deserves worship)

Catholic clergy do not have power in and of themselves to forgive sins. Jesus gave the authority to His apostles to do so (John 20:23), and that authority has been handed down through the centuries through ordination. If pre-scripted prayers are uttered like writing sentences without conviction, then they're worthless; prayers, pre-scripted or no, need to come from the heart. I'm not following your leap to fallacy.

I love and follow Jesus teachings and promote what he taught, with that one major exception of accepting him as my Lord and Savior. I will never call someone on earth Father (except for my Dad).

I am at a point where I could be swayed, if someone were able to sway me. I believe in the concept of a godhead - The first part being God the creator and major presence in the OT, the second part being the Holy Spirit - the compassionate side of God and (I believe) the source of our souls ( I truly believe that we all have a little part of God in us, a fingerprint left over fro our creation if you will).

But what if my wife is right?

Even though the only thing that separates me from a Christian is the fact that I do not fully consider Jesus to actually be God.... is that enough to send me to an eternity without God's presence?

That's not the only thing that separates you; but if you will not acknowledge Jesus as Lord and Savior, He will not acknowledge you.

[xcav8tor]

Yes, I am a former (former for MANY years) RLDS church member. I no longer go to that church or any other.

You were right about many things, but I do have one immediate question.

If forgiving sin signifies Jesus specialness, then why are Catholic clergy doing this, handing out pre-scripted prayers like writing sentences? Wouldn't that make the Catholic church a fallicy? (I do not mean to upset anyone, it's just a serious problem I have with accepting that ANY man on earth deserves worship)

I love and follow Jesus teachings and promote what he taught, with that one major exception of accepting him as my Lord and Savior. I will never call someone on earth Father (except for my Dad).

I am at a point where I could be swayed, if someone were able to sway me. I believe in the concept of a godhead - The first part being God the creator and major presence in the OT, the second part being the Holy Spirit - the compassionate side of God and (I believe) the source of our souls ( I truly believe that we all have a little part of God in us, a fingerprint left over fro our creation if you will).

But what if my wife is right?

Even though the only thing that separates me from a Christian is the fact that I do not fully consider Jesus to actually be God.... is that enough to send me to an eternity without God's presence?

What if I'm right? What if Jesus said I am the way, and meant it literally, as in do as I do, act as I act, conduct as I conduct, believe as I believe.... All of that but not put me before God, worship and pray to me before God, call me your savior and not God...

Then will my wife and you and Christianity spend that eternity without the presence of God?

Hi religi-ninja,

You didn't reply to my suggestion that Christ being identified in the Bible as our Creator should go a long way towards dealing with the question as to whether or not He is God and is entitled to be worshiped as such. Would you like to comment on that now?

Another related issue in dealing with your reluctance to worship "ANY man" is, "Do you or do you not believe it is POSSIBLE for the Almighty to take a human form IF HE SO CHOOSES?" Granted, we cannot just blindly accept anyone's claim to deity without a careful examination of the evidence offered to back up such a claim, but do you at least accept that God IS CAPABLE of taking on human flesh? If not, that needs to be addressed first (ie. Why not? What objections do you have? On what objective basis do you limit God?)

If you do agree that God is capable, then we need to focus on what aspect of Jesus' character, actions and/or lack of qualifications you feel disqualify Him to be God incarnate. So, which is it?

As to your immediate question regarding the forgiveness of sin by the church One Bad Pig correctly stated that, "Jesus gave the authority to His apostles to do so (John 20:23), and that authority has been handed down through the centuries through ordination." The difference in Jesus forgiving sins and the apostles/church granting forgiveness of sins is that Jesus forgave a person's sins outright by His own authority (as the Divine Being ultimately offended by all sin) whereas the apostles/church declare the forgiveness of sin based on Christ's atonement, the person's repentance and expression of faith, and in the authority of Jesus' name - not their own. Do you appreciate the distinction? Any faults the Catholic church may have in mishandling declarations of forgiveness need not stand in the way of you accepting Christ as your Lord and Saviour. If you have objections to the way they run their denomination (including calling priests "Father"), there are lots of other Christian churches to choose from. As the saying goes, "Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater."

You say, "I believe in the concept of a godhead - The first part being God the creator and major presence in the OT, the second part being the Holy Spirit - the compassionate side of God." Good! You are 2/3rd of the way there, but it's not a matter of being "swayed," but of opening yourself to allow The Holy Spirit to guide you to the truth.

You also say, "I love and follow Jesus teachings and promote what he taught, with that one major exception of accepting him as my Lord and Savior." That is a major exception. Loving and following Jesus requires that we also believe what He says, does it not? Jesus taught that He and The Father were a package deal: "I am The Way, The Truth, and The Life. No one comes to the Father but by Me." (John 14:1) Shouldn't we be able to TRUST what He Who IS THE TRUTH says?

You say, "Even though the only thing that separates me from a Christian is the fact that I do not fully consider Jesus to actually be God.... is that enough to send me to an eternity without God's presence?" According to Jesus - yes, knowingly rejecting His deity is enough. It is of utmost importance that we know who Jesus actually is because only faith in the REAL Jesus can save. Jesus told the Jews that if they did not believe that "I AM" (a reference to God's Name, I AM THAT I AM in Exod. 3:14) that they would die in their sins (John 8:23, 24). At the end of the same chapter, Jesus asserts His eternal existence as I AM in contrast to Abraham's created existence - "Before Abraham was born, I AM." (John 8:58) Their reaction of attempting to stone Him for blasphemy shows they understood His claim to be their God.

Those who believe in the "Mormon Jesus" (a spirit brother of Satan who achieved godhood and is a separate God from the Father), or the "Jehovah's Witness Jesus" (a created spirit who became a mere man, who died and was resurrected as an immortal spirit creature - "a god" but not "The God") do not believe in the Jesus of the Bible (who is God Incarnate, Second Person of the Divine Trinity, and our Creator). Surely you agree that these 3 Christs CANNOT ALL BE the Jesus of the Bible. We have to have a relationship with the REAL JESUS, and this only comes by recognizing He is BOTH God and Man.

Jesus is not only "a son of God," but THE ONE AND ONLY UNIQUE SON OF GOD (Greek monogenes - one of a kind, John 1:18) - which makes Jesus God too (For this reason the Jews tried all the harder to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God. John 5:18).

What we beget SHARES IN our nature. What we beget IS PART of what we are. For example, dogs beget dogs (a canine nature), cats beget cats (with a feline nature), we beget babies (with a human nature), what God "begets" IS GOD and shares His DIVINE NATURE.

What we create or make DOES NOT share our nature. It is something OTHER than ourselves. We build homes, we construct bridges, we manufacture cars. In the same way, what God creates DOES NOT share His nature as God (although mankind was created in His image). God creates the universe, the earth, and everything in it. In calling Jesus Christ His Son, God is telling us that He is ALSO GOD, the YHWH of the OT.

Jesus also said, "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life... Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son" (John 3:16, 18). The apostle John tells us, "We accept man’s testimony, but God’s testimony is greater because it is the testimony of God, which he has given about his Son. Anyone who believes in the Son of God has this testimony in his heart. Anyone who does not believe God has made him out to be a liar, because he has not believed the testimony God has given about his Son. And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life" (1 John 5:9-12 NIV). To deny God's testimony that Jesus is His Only Begotten Son - and therefore also God - is to call God a liar. And since eternal life is bound up in Christ, if we don't accept the Christ of the Bible, we CANNOT get access to the eternal life that resides in Him. THAT is why it's a deal breaker.

You ask, "What if I'm right? What if Jesus said I am the way, and meant it literally, as in do as I do, act as I act, conduct as I conduct, believe as I believe.... All of that but not put me before God, worship and pray to me before God, call me your savior and not God... Then will my wife and you and Christianity spend that eternity without the presence of God?" Your question is based on a false premise.

We are not asked to put Jesus "before" God, or to worship Him "before" God - He IS God. We worship ONE GOD: YHWH. One God IN THREE PERSONS: YHWH The Father, YHWH The Son and YHWH The Holy Ghost. We worship the Father in the name of the Son through the Holy Spirit. To worship any person in the Godhead is to worship the One True God of the Bible, but there is ORDER within the Trinity. The Father is the Source Who eternally begets the Son. The Holy Spirit procedes from both the Father and the Son (as illustrated by the sun which cannot be separated from the light it begets and the heat which proceeds from both it and the light it emanates). Your problems seems to stem from your inability to grasp this inseparable relationship. You think of Jesus as a SEPARATE BEING from the Father (because of His humanity), and therefore you struggle with which Deity deserves higher honour. Focusing on the MONOTHEISTIC aspect of the Trinity is the solution to your problem. It's not a case of choosing one over the other, but EQUAL HONOUR TO ALL (see Matt. 28:19; John 5:23; John 16:13-15; John 17:1; Phil. 2:5-11; Rev. 5:13).

I hope this helps.

Regards,
xcav8tor