A Long Standing Argument....

[Teallaura]

Sorry, I had some trouble with my computer and had to post prematurely.

The last two things I was going to say were:

1) It looks like several people re doing a pretty good job on this so I'm not sure how much I can help. I'm going to hang back and see how the others do so I don't inadvertently mess them up.

2) We have GOT to teach you how to use quote tags!

These are quote tags:

[ quote]Blah, blah.[/quote]

This is what they do:

Blah, blah.

Fancy version:

[ quote=Your Name Here]Blah, blah.[/quote]

What it does:

Blah, blah.

Now, I added an extra space to make them not work when I didn't want them to. Just remove the space and anytime you put quote tags around something it will show up as a quote.

Edit: What wise guy disabled the disable tags?

[One Bad Pig]

If forgiving sin signifies Jesus specialness, then why are Catholic clergy doing this, handing out pre-scripted prayers like writing sentences? Wouldn't that make the Catholic church a fallicy? (I do not mean to upset anyone, it's just a serious problem I have with accepting that ANY man on earth deserves worship)

Catholic clergy do not have power in and of themselves to forgive sins. Jesus gave the authority to His apostles to do so (John 20:23), and that authority has been handed down through the centuries through ordination. If pre-scripted prayers are uttered like writing sentences without conviction, then they're worthless; prayers, pre-scripted or no, need to come from the heart. I'm not following your leap to fallacy.

Well, you actually answered it yourself. It's MAN who has been handing the down that ability to other MEN. MAN are nothing more than, at the very best, intelligent animals. You're explanation here and the jab you take at me and my beliefs and questions here don't explain anything, offer any answers, or make an attempt to persuade. Of course prayer should come from the heart, that goes without question. That is common sense. But MAN giving MAN the right to offer salvation? Pig, to be honest, you're not offering any counter argument here. Should I come right out and say it? I believe that the Catholic Church is the biggest insult to Christianity there is... and also the world's biggest cult and source of false witnesses. I mean, it's man giving power to man... and weren't the followers of Jesus directed to give up the comforts of MAN... yet we see the Pope living in ultimate splendor? Come on.... Look, I'm more than willing to drop this debate because you'll never convince me otherwise.....We are discussing Christianity and Judaism and other religions, not certain sects of any given religion. Let's just leave Catholicism out of this, I don't see how there is a place for it. I do my best to reserve judgement on all things and people, but that doesn't mean I don't have my opinions. You're pointed post prompted me to share mine, since you shared yours.....

I wasn't trying to counter an argument. You asked a question about Catholicism, so I answered it. If you didn't want an answer, why did you ask the question? I'm not Roman Catholic; I'm not here to defend the pope. Jesus delegated the authority to forgive sins to His apostles because He would no longer be present Himself. Man is more than an intelligent animal - he is made in the image of God. Additionally, I nowhere equated forgiveness of sins with salvation.

That's not the only thing that separates you; but if you will not acknowledge Jesus as Lord and Savior, He will not acknowledge you.

Really? Now, I would love to here more about this, truly I would. If I follow all the teachings of Jesus without acknowledging him as God, what else separates me from a Christian? I give without expecting anything in return... My home is open to anyone in need, I judge not, My money is not my own, I share any power or privilege I receive, and the list goes on. If you would, please kindly post back and point out the speck in my eye, friend.

No one - not me, not you - is able to be saved through doing good (Romans 3:23). The passage I had in mind in my earlier reply is also instructive - Romans 9:30-10:13.

[fm93]

Hmmm. I will check this out... I haven't ever heard of this term before... thank you for the link...

That article presents the same information I already told you (and it's actually from where I learned about the Wisdom Theology template), so if you were reading my earlier posts carefully, then you should already know the concept.

[Antony]

Hi Antony,

The passage in question in Luke 10:25-37 NET:

25 Now an expert in religious law stood up to test Jesus, saying, “Teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?” 26 He said to him, “What is written in the law? How do you understand it?” 27 The expert answered, “Love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your strength, and with all your mind, and love your neighbor as yourself.” 28 Jesus said to him, “You have answered correctly; do this, and you will live.”

29 But the expert, wanting to justify himself, said to Jesus, “And who is my neighbor?” 30 Jesus replied, “A man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and fell into the hands of robbers, who stripped him, beat him up, and went off, leaving him half dead. 31 Now by chance a priest was going down that road, but when he saw the injured man he passed by on the other side. 32 So too a Levite, when he came up to the place and saw him, passed by on the other side. 33 But a Samaritan who was traveling came to where the injured man was, and when he saw him, he felt compassion for him. 34 He went up to him and bandaged his wounds, pouring oil and wine on them. Then he put him on his own animal, brought him to an inn, and took care of him. 35 The next day he took out two silver coins and gave them to the innkeeper, saying, ‘Take care of him, and whatever else you spend, I will repay you when I come back this way.’ 36 Which of these three do you think became a neighbor to the man who fell into the hands of the robbers?” 37 The expert in religious law said, “The one who showed mercy to him.” So Jesus said to him, “Go and do the same.”

My discussion with religi-ninja deals with the loving the Lord your God "with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your strength, and with all your mind" part. Understanding Who God is is part of loving God with all your mind. In the parable of the Good Samaritan, Jesus was helping the lawyer to realize that anyone in need is our neighbour. Christianity is more than merely doing good (though that will follow a genuine conversion, good works alone cannot save us. Rom. 3:20 to 4:5, Eph. 2:8,9). It also involves knowing God and restoring our relationship with Him, and only the Jesus of the Bible can introduce us to the Father:

"No one knows who the Son is except the Father, or who the Father is except the Son and anyone to whom the Son decides to reveal him.” (Luke 10:22 NET)

If we reject the Bible's witness to Christ's identity and will not believe what Jesus tells us about Himself, then we can hardly expect Him to reveal the Father to us. No amount of good deeds can change that. In fact, the more good deeds we offer, the more offensive our offering (Isaiah 64:6).

Regards,
xcav8tor

xcav8tor,

Jesus induced the lawyer to identify the two essential requirements to “inherit eternal life”, they being to love God and to love your neighbour.

The word “love” can be a difficult one to convey a message because it has different meanings and shades according to how it is used. Fortunately, in the case of “love your neighbour” Jesus gave us clarity with his “good Samaritan” example.

Elsewhere Jesus gave another practical example of “love”: “This is my commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you. Greater love has no one than this, than to lay down one’s life for his friends.” (Jn 15:12-13)

Both the above examples of “love” are illustrations of “character in action” and as such have substance and are alive, whereas words alone often are lifeless because they are but form without substance.

Obviously both the above examples are to do with love towards fellow men (or women). But what of the other requirement essential to “inherit eternal life”, to love God?

xcav8tor, in view of your other posts on this thread perhaps you could enlighten us by explaining how one loves God.

[RBerman]

Obviously both the above examples are to do with love towards fellow men (or women). But what of the other requirement essential to “inherit eternal life”, to love God? xcav8tor, in view of your other posts on this thread perhaps you could enlighten us by explaining how one loves God.

I'm sure he would agree that Jesus addresses the topic of how we demonstrate our love for God here:

John 14:15

"If you love me, you will keep my commandments."

[xcav8tor]

Hi religi-ninja,

You didn't reply to my suggestion that Christ being identified in the Bible as our Creator should go a long way towards dealing with the question as to whether or not He is God and is entitled to be worshiped as such. Would you like to comment on that now?

Jesus was identified as God by his followers... Many others have claimed to be either God, Jesus reincarnated... My confusion is not at all lifted because other people believe... In other words, other people do not influence my beliefs, in any fashion, because only what I feel in my heart is what matters.

Jesus also claimed to be God (through His titles "Son of God, Son of Man, I AM", attributes "The Truth, The Resurrection and The Life, Omnipotent, Eternal", works "Forgives sin, will Raise the dead, will Judge all, Grants Eternal Life", and other statements "One with the Father, to see Him is to see God, He shares God's glory"), and proved His claim by raising Himself from the dead (John 2:18-22 NIV John 10:14-19 NIV). No one else who claimed divine status has ever backed up their claim by their bodily resurrection.

If you do agree that God is capable, then we need to focus on what aspect of Jesus' character, actions and/or lack of qualifications you feel disqualify Him to be God incarnate.

Well, the aspect of Jesus that causes hesitancy to believe in him is that he is a man. Man is flawed. If you were to look at this with a completely open mind, you would agree that ANY man is capable of having a Messiah complex.

But being both God and Man, Jesus is unique. He is sinless. He even challenged the Jews to point out even one sin which He committed:

"Can any of you prove me guilty of sin? If I am telling the truth, why don’t you believe me? Whoever belongs to God hears what God says. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God." (John 8:46, 47 NIV). This is also confirmed by other scriptures:

God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God. (2 Cor. 5:21 NIV)

Therefore, since we have a great high priest who has ascended into heaven, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold firmly to the faith we profess. For we do not have a high priest who is unable to empathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are - yet he did not sin. (Heb. 4:14, 15 NIV)

To this you were called, because Christ suffered for you, leaving you an example, that you should follow in his steps. “He committed no sin, and no deceit was found in his mouth.” When they hurled their insults at him, he did not retaliate; when he suffered, he made no threats. Instead, he entrusted himself to him who judges justly. (1 Pet. 2:22, 23 NIV)

But we know that when Christ appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is. All who have this hope in him purify themselves, just as he is pure. Everyone who sins breaks the law; in fact, sin is lawlessness. But you know that he appeared so that he might take away our sins. And in him is no sin. (1 John 3:2-5 NIV)

Besides, being human in and of itself does not equate to being "flawed." Adam, the first man, was not "flawed" before he sinned. God pronounced everything He created as "very good" (Gen. 1:31 NIV). Christ as the Second Adam was not "flawed" either. Doesn't it make sense that if God condescended to take human form, that He would have to be sinless? Why would He break His own law which is a reflection of His own character?

The difference in Jesus forgiving sins and the apostles/church granting forgiveness of sins is that Jesus forgave a person's sins outright by His own authority (as the Divine Being ultimately offended by all sin) whereas the apostles/church declare the forgiveness of sin based on Christ's atonement, the person's repentance and expression of faith, and in the authority of Jesus' name - not their own. Do you appreciate the distinction?

I understand the distinction between the two, if indeed Jesus is God's true Son, in that he is actually a part of God sent here Himself, then I could do so without doubt or hesitancy.
However... Let's say that John Smith is a priest for a Catholic church. Let's say... it is discovered that he has been molesting children for the entire time... Wouldn't that mean that he was never given the power to forgive sins, and that every person who has gone to him for absolution has been believing that their sins are forgiven, when this entire time they were wrong?
In my opinion, the only one that can forgive sin is God, and only if he so chooses. He knows what is in each of our hearts, and we should pray to Him to forgive us. While we may not know whether or not He ever forgave us while we inhabit our earthly bodies, if we truly meant it in our hearts when we asked, God knows before we even ask if we deserve forgiveness or not. Not some priest

I am glad that you acknowledge that if Christ is God's true Son that He is able to forgive sin. As already discussed, the Gospels clearly attest to Jesus doing this (which is why the unbelieving Jews falsely charged Him with blasphemy).

As to your hypothetical case of the sinful priest, whether or not he "officially" declared them forgiven does not really matter. If those people had truly repented of their sin and accepted Christ as their Lord and Saviour, they ARE saved and their sins HAVE been forgiven. It is one's relationship with Christ which is the determining factor. He alone has and grants eternal life - not priests or ministers (who are merely Christ's representatives). Forgiveness is based on the substitutionary death of Christ on the cross (paying the debt of our sin), and it is applied to us upon our declaration of faith in Christ's deity and bodily resurrection.

If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved. (Romans 10:9, 10 NIV)

Because of this, we can KNOW whether or not we are saved. (1 John 5:12, 13 NIV)

Dear God, it's me, Josh, again. You are my God, and I love you. Without you, nothing is possible, including myself. As you know, I have been praying to you for quite a long time for clarification about the role Jesus had here on earth. I beg of you, God, give me knowledge of the heart to know and believe the truth. Was or is Jesus you? Is Jesus a part of a Holy Trinity? Or was he just a man who taught others how to love you? Please, God, if you see fit, show me the way, show me the truth.

I believe God is in the process of answering your prayer even now.

You are correct. Loving and worshipping Jesus does require believing in his teachings. HOWEVER, believing in his teachings does not require loving or worshiping Jesus. Couldn't it be that he was here to set a good example?.

I would disagree. According to Christ's teachings, loving Him goes hand in hand with loving God the Father. You can't love and honor the Father without offering the same to His Son:

Moreover, the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son, that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. Whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father, who sent him. (John 5:22, 23 NIV)

Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I have come here from God. I have not come on my own; God sent me. (John 8:42)

Whoever has my commands and keeps them is the one who loves me. The one who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love them and show myself to them.” (John 14:21 NIV)

No, the Father himself loves you because you have loved me and have believed that I came from God. I came from the Father and entered the world; now I am leaving the world and going back to the Father.” (John 16:27, 28 NIV)

Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God!” Then Jesus told him, “Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.” (John 20:28, 29 NIV) Thomas, a monotheistic Jew, here worships Christ as his God with the Lord's approval.

As you can see from the above, the Father loving us is conditional on us loving His Son. Not loving Jesus is evidence that one does not truly love God, and to love Jesus is to love God.

Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. If you really know me, you will know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him.” Philip said, “Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us.” Jesus answered: “Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? Don’t you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? (John 14:6-10 NIV)

Now that is interesting, because I was under the impression that when directly asked if he (Jesus) was God's son, Jesus replied "You said it"... To me that says Jesus was saying, You said that, not me...

I believe this is the passage you are alluding to:

Then the high priest stood up and said to Jesus, “Are you not going to answer? What is this testimony that these men are bringing against you?” But Jesus remained silent. The high priest said to him, “I charge you under oath by the living God: Tell us if you are the Messiah, the Son of God.” “You have said so,” Jesus replied. “But I say to all of you: From now on you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven.” Then the high priest tore his clothes and said, “He has spoken blasphemy! Why do we need any more witnesses? Look, now you have heard the blasphemy. What do you think?” (Matt. 26:62-66 NIV)

Jesus' answer here was the same he gave to Judas in the same chapter, "You have said so" (see verse 25). It meant "yes" to Judas and "yes" to the High Priest. Jesus then makes His reply unmistakable by alluding to two famous Messianic prophecies to Himself (Ps. 110:1 and Dan. 7:13) - rubbing their noses in the truth, so to speak. They understood His claim to be God's unique Son, the Messiah, as a claim of deity and charged Him with blasphemy.

WHOA. I had NO IDEA that was the view of the Mormon church. How absolutely VILE. That is VERY intersting. I had absolutely no clue of this.

As I understand it, Mormons are taught that God begat many spirit children, Lucifer and Jesus being the most important. Both of them wanted to come to earth to save man, but since Jesus was chosen, Lucifer's became jealous and turned evil. Historic Christianity teaches that Jesus is Satan's creator and Satan was created perfect and full of beauty, but then became filled with pride and fancied himself as God's equal. When he got the boot he devoted himself to destroy mankind in order to get back at God.

God is my Father, but in saying that I do not consider it to be a claim of divinity... God is THE Creator.

We are all children of God in the sense that He is our Creator, and Christians become members of God's family by adoption, but only Jesus is THE SON of God by nature. (John 1:1-3, John 10:30, Heb. 1:1-3, Col. 2:9)

I truly believe what you are saying here... Except that if Jesus is not truly God's son but rather someone God poured himself into, then accepting him as a part of God is a major sin... Just as Lucifer was created to show us evil, it could be possible that Jesus was created to show us Good... But in the same way as I will never acknowledge Lucifer as a part of God, even though he poured all of himself into Lucifer, I have a hard time considering it possible that Jesus... is a part of God. I believe that, as I stated before, we all have a bit of God's fingerprint left in us, our soul... Is it not possible that Jesus served this purpose without actually being God?

The united testimony if the Bible is that Jesus IS God's Son. Jesus said so. The apostles said so. I even showed you where God the Father said so. Either you believe the Bible, or you don't. It's your choice

The Bible says Jesus is our Creator, and therefore He Himself was not created. Again, Jesus said He existed before the creation of the world:

And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began. (John 17:5 NIV)

“Very truly I tell you,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I AM!” (John 8:58 NIV)

And Paul confirms it:

For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.(Col. 1:16, 17 NIV)

And I'm not sure where you get the idea that God "poured Himself" into Lucifer. That's not in any Bible I've read.

I am really stuck between a rock and a hard place, and I hope that my responses have not insulted you nor any other reader... thanks for your time.

Speaking for myself, nothing you have said has offended me. And you're welcome.

Regards,
xcav8tor

[Antony]

I'm sure he would agree that Jesus addresses the topic of how we demonstrate our love for God here:

John 14:15

"If you love me, you will keep my commandments."

RBerman,

Leaving to one side any Trinitarian assumptions, would xcav8tor and yourself be good enough to provide some real-life examples of how one loves God in a similar vein to how Jesus provided real-life examples of one’s love for fellow man (see Post 124)?

[RBerman]

Leaving to one side any Trinitarian assumptions, would xcav8tor and yourself be good enough to provide some real-life examples of how one loves God in a similar vein to how Jesus provided real-life examples of one’s love for fellow man (see Post 124)?

One loves God by doing everything that God commands. Show that He matters to you. Talk to Him in Prayer. Read His Word. Think about Him. Talk about Him. Do not worship idols. Do not take his name in vain. Honor authority, and be faithful to your spouse. Do not lie, steal, or murder. And so on.

[religi-ninja]

I have a message that I need to share with the following people:Xcav8tor, One Bad Pig, Rberman, fm93, and many others including all others who read this thread---

I had been having the worst personal time I could imagine for quite a stretch. We were having issues providing for our family. Then I was having major problems at work, with one major problem after another arising, never able to get anything done. Finally, as an accumulation of problems, the car died on the way to work. It over heated and we (my coworker James and I) had to sit and wait forever to get it to cool down again. While we were pulled over waiting for the car to cool down, James (a true Christian) and I started talking about religion and Christ in particular. All of a sudden I started feeling pretty strange. Then I had this feeling of being high, almost on drugs, come over me. It continued to grow and radiate from deep within me. There was nothing special about the conversation we had, but it concerned some of the issues I had with Christianity. The next thing I knew, I was awash in a joy and happiness I could not handle, nor contain.

See, James explained away one major problem I had. I had always had an issue with the fact that God was unable to look upon sin, but that Satan was called the accuser. It was a HUGE misunderstanding. Satan doesn't make accusations to God above us. When we die and the time comes for us to be judged, Satan accuses us in front of Jesus. It is at that point that Jesus will say whether or not he has already purchased our debt of sin with His blood.

That was what was said before that feeling came over me. When the high began, and I could no longer contain it, when I was enraptured in the inexplicable happiness, out of nowhere, I thanked Jesus for the feeling. I didn't say God, I said Jesus. The next thing I knew, I was filled with so much happiness I had to stand up and walk around, just move. Then the thought went through my head that I was so close to what Jesus wanted of me the whole way. Like a deck of cards being flashed and shuffled in front of me, I was shown that was wrong. In the blink of an eye, I was shown how I had not been anything at all what Jesus wanted, all my personal sins and flaws were revealed to me, number one being selfishness. I was so worried about Christ making sense to me, and what I needed to realize is that I am unimportant in the grand scheme of things. Faith is blind perseverance in the Life of our Savior Jesus Christ. Because I told James I loved him and thanked him for sharing this experience. I called my wife. I told her I was so sorry for holding her back from Jesus the whole time.

She paused for a second...and said "Are you retarded? (LOL, my wife is blunt and cool like that) You haven't been holding us back, not me, not the family, and not Jesus. We've just been waiting for you".

That was it. I lost it and finally experienced what it is like to walk in the light of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, True Son of God, King of Kings, and Messiah of All.

I was born April 9th 1979. I was born dead. On June 15th, 2011, I was reborn ALIVE in the faith of Jesus, washed in His blood, accepting of His salvation.

It is in great part that the people who have contributed to this board have helped me see Jesus. See, no one finds Jesus. He's not lost. Jesus finds YOU and does so through the works of others. Good works do not get you into Heaven nor find you salvation. Only Jesus can do that. And only if you open your heart to Him, His Glory, His Majesty, and His Love for all of us, including hedonists like me. God Bless you all.

Now, let the trials begin. Christ, through me, will destroy anything in my way toward maintaining salvation and spreading His word. And this path begins with my wife, and all of you. Thank you so much, my Brothers in Christ. I love you all and am eternally grateful.

I was born April 9th 1979. I was born dead. On June 15th, 2011, I was reborn ALIVE in the faith of Jesus, washed in His blood, accepting of His salvation.

[One Bad Pig]

Awesome!

[xcav8tor]

Praise the Lord! Welcome to the family Josh!

[Antony]

One loves God by doing everything that God commands. Show that He matters to you. Talk to Him in Prayer. Read His Word. Think about Him. Talk about Him. Do not worship idols. Do not take his name in vain. Honor authority, and be faithful to your spouse. Do not lie, steal, or murder. And so on.

RBerman

Re: Posts 124, 125, 127, 128

What I have been endeavouring to obtain in recent posts is not generalisations but a real-life (and contemporary) example of how one loves God in a similar vein to how Jesus provided a real-life and contemporary example of one’s love for fellow man (see Post 124).

Originally this request was directed to xcav8tor. You appear to have taken on the role of acting as xcav8tor's spokesman, with his approval it would seem. However, since you are unable to provide what is requested, perhpaps xcav8tor could now attempt to do so?

The value of a real-life example is that it can give substance to what might otherwise be just words. Or put another way, it can breathe life into words.

[RBerman]

RBerman

Re: Posts 124, 125, 127, 128

What I have been endeavouring to obtain in recent posts is not generalisations but a real-life (and contemporary) example of how one loves God in a similar vein to how Jesus provided a real-life and contemporary example of one’s love for fellow man (see Post 124).

Originally this request was directed to xcav8tor. You appear to have taken on the role of acting as xcav8tor's spokesman, with his approval it would seem. However, since you are unable to provide what is requested, perhpaps xcav8tor could now attempt to do so?

The value of a real-life example is that it can give substance to what might otherwise be just words. Or put another way, it can breathe life into words.

My examples seem pretty concrete and real-life to me. Obviously I can't provide a post by xcav8tor for you if that's what you're looking for.

[xcav8tor]

xcav8tor,

Jesus induced the lawyer to identify the two essential requirements to “inherit eternal life”, they being to love God and to love your neighbour...
Obviously both the above examples are to do with love towards fellow men (or women). But what of the other requirement essential to “inherit eternal life”, to love God?

xcav8tor, in view of your other posts on this thread perhaps you could enlighten us by explaining how one loves God.

* * * * *
What I have been endeavouring to obtain in recent posts is not generalisations but a real-life (and contemporary) example of how one loves God in a similar vein to how Jesus provided a real-life and contemporary example of one’s love for fellow man (see Post 124).

Originally this request was directed to xcav8tor. You appear to have taken on the role of acting as xcav8tor's spokesman, with his approval it would seem. However, since you are unable to provide what is requested, perhpaps xcav8tor could now attempt to do so?

One loves God by doing everything that God commands. Show that He matters to you. Talk to Him in Prayer. Read His Word. Think about Him. Talk about Him. Do not worship idols. Do not take his name in vain. Honor authority, and be faithful to your spouse. Do not lie, steal, or murder. And so on.

Hello Antony,

First, I'd like to address your seemingly condescending attitude (as indicated by the highlighted words from your posts). Please stow it.

Second, you are correct that I felt no need to add to RBerman's response. I would add worship and praise, but he gave a substantive answer to your question. If you are looking for something more specific, you will have to elaborate.

Third, I am already behind in responding to others and so do not have time to waste on people who are here just to . Having checked your website and previous posts, I see that you have rejected the doctrine of the Trinity (your list of alleged contrary evidence is old news, but it does give insight into why you personally do not believe). Since you are not an orthodox Christian and have clearly made up your mind, it suggests that your questions are not sincere but merely a manipulative device. Colour me not interested.

Regards,
xcav8tor

[Antony]

Hello Antony,

First, I'd like to address your seemingly condescending attitude (as indicated by the highlighted words from your posts). Please stow it.

Second, you are correct that I felt no need to add to RBerman's response. I would add worship and praise, but he gave a substantive answer to your question. If you are looking for something more specific, you will have to elaborate.

Third, I am already behind in responding to others and so do not have time to waste on people who are here just to . Having checked your website and previous posts, I see that you have rejected the doctrine of the Trinity (your list of alleged contrary evidence is old news, but it does give insight into why you personally do not believe). Since you are not an orthodox Christian and have clearly made up your mind, it suggests that your questions are not sincere but merely a manipulative device. Colour me not interested.

Regards,
xcav8tor

xcav8tor,

Other readers of this thread would find it worthwhile to separate your personal criticism of me and address for themselves the issue at hand, which is to provide ‘a real-life and contemporary example of how one loves God in a similar vein to how Jesus provided a real-life and contemporary example of one’s love for fellow man.’

Should there be such readers who undertake this exercise they might keep in mind the words of John 4:24: ‘God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.'

You said you checked my website. Perhaps you saw in the Other Wixted writings section the letter printed in 1956 about the passing of the newspaper editor Charles Ranger. The following extract from the letter has some relevance to what has been discussed here:

There was nothing about him which savoured of servility and it was a canon of the conduct of his private and business affairs that a god of truth is best served by those methods which help to elicit the truth.

Readers of this thread might also find the article ‘The man born to be king’ in the Public forum leaflets section of the website relevant and interesting.

So far as the divinity and Trinitarian interpretations of the Bible are concerned, these certainly warrant being held up to the light. You are no doubt aware that one of the relevant issues — whether Mary whilst a virgin conceived Jesus — is dealt with comprehensively on a nearby thread that has over 26,000 views.

Antony