Happy Immaculate Conception!

[Kelp]

Well, that raises the question of which churchmen get to be counted as part of "infallible tradition" and which don't.

The Orthodox view (again, only as near as I can tell) is that church tradition is unchanging and guarded by the Spirit so comparing the one to the majority throughout history should tell you who's right. I'm a bit too cynical about church history to buy that buy that (), right now at least.

[Catholicity]

That would be the Catholics and the Orthodox. Anyone which Church has unbroken valid Apostolic Succession

[Kelp]

What reason do we have to believe that Mary was sinless?

As a Protestant, little to none. It kind of comes with the whole package I suppose. I don't personally see any good reason not to believe it anymore though, but that's just me.

Claiming that Mary was "one flesh with Him in her womb" doesn't have a ring of truth, it has the ring of wordplay.

Well, His body was forged from her genetic material, seems a pretty apt description to me.

How was the Incarnation possible? How can Adam's sin effect all of the universe? How can the mere fact of being born human make me prone to sin and fallen? How can any being with a real human will ever be sinless like we'll all be someday? These are things I don't know, I don't think anyone can know. If Mary was sinless, I'd just add one more mystery to the pile.

[RBerman]

The Orthodox view (again, only as near as I can tell) is that church tradition is unchanging and guarded by the Spirit so comparing the one to the majority throughout history should tell you who's right. I'm a bit too cynical about church history to buy that buy that (), right now at least.

You're not cynical. You're honest.

[RBerman]

That would be the Catholics and the Orthodox. Anyone which Church has unbroken valid Apostolic Succession

1) The Roman Church and the Eastern Church do not agree on tradition.
2) Where it is said that Apostolic Succession is the ground of truth? In the teachings of those who style themselves as the successors of the apostles. Not in the Bible.

[St Croix]

St. Croix has pretty much denied the divinity of Christ in other threads so I doubt you'll get much anywhere with him on this topic.

I did not ever deny that Christ came from God, and since that's what he said of himself, and its all he said of himself, I think you'd better watch out yourself.

That being said, I just can't resist...

Who are you to judge someone else's servant? God told Ezekiel to lay on his side for months and Isaiah to walk around naked. If He wants Arsenios to pray alone for years, what of it to you? I submit that this man of God by his humility and stalwart faithfulness has probably done more for the kingdom of God than you or I will ever do in our lives.

I'm just reading scripture, something that you seem to violently object to.

2Th 3:10
"For even when we were with you, this we commanded you, that if any would not work, neither should he eat."

[Kelp]

I did not ever deny that Christ came from God, and since that's what he said of himself, and its all he said of himself, I think you'd better watch out yourself.

No u.

I'm just reading scripture, something that you seem to violently object to.

2Th 3:10
"For even when we were with you, this we commanded you, that if any would not work, neither should he eat."

Most Eastern monks grow their own food, any evidence Arsenios didn't beyond prejudice?

And even if he was a mendicant:

Paul also says that Peter and the other apostles have a right to be provided for by the congregations on their journeys, so this is obviously not a universal commandment. If God wants to call someone to a life that pleases him yet doesn't support themselves, He has every right to.

[spauline]

No u.



Most Eastern monks grow their own food, any evidence Arsenios didn't beyond prejudice?

And even if he was a mendicant:

Paul also says that Peter and the other apostles have a right to be provided for by the congregations on their journeys, so this is obviously not a universal commandment. If God wants to call someone to a life that pleases him yet doesn't support themselves, He has every right to.

Amen, Kelp, this Croix is being too cruel. It may be true that Protestant ministers have regular jobs, but then, do they have seven sacraments to administer and daily mass, do they have to get their • Edited by a Moderator • out of bed every other night to give last rites to people. BS. What, a man of God must work two full time jobs?

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[Kelp]

What, a man of God must work two full time jobs?

Indeed. "Do not muzzle an ox as it treads out the grain."

[maudman]

The reasons for doctrines such as the thread is titles comes from a very simple truth that has nothing to do with what many think.. But a truth not in what is said but "because" of what is said... It has nothing to do with the story of the virgin birth itself...

It's a simple truth.. Very very simple...

But it fulfils the Prophecy in our time of those who swallow a camel and strain at a nat... It's about those who heep up al kinds of doctrine to justify themselves but just can't swallow something simple... Everybody thinks way to hard about this stuff.. Ideed finding that truth wasn't simple... But believing it is, when you know what it is you believe...

Peace and God bless

[spauline]

The reasons for doctrines such as the thread is titles comes from a very simple truth that has nothing to do with what many think.. But a truth not in what is said but "because" of what is said... It has nothing to do with the story of the virgin birth itself...

It's a simple truth.. Very very simple...

But it fulfils the Prophecy in our time of those who swallow a camel and strain at a nat... It's about those who heep up al kinds of doctrine to justify themselves but just can't swallow something simple... Everybody thinks way to hard about this stuff.. Ideed finding that truth wasn't simple... But believing it is, when you know what it is you believe...

Peace and God bless

FB like. :)

[Carrikature]

As a Protestant, little to none. It kind of comes with the whole package I suppose. I don't personally see any good reason not to believe it anymore though, but that's just me.

Even if I granted that there are no reasons not to believe it, that doesn't mean I should accept it either. Lack of arguments against is not the same as arguments for. It has little to no significance (or relevance for that matter) from what I can tell, and I aim for minimalism whenever possible.

Well, His body was forged from her genetic material, seems a pretty apt description to me.

I disagree. First, to my knowledge 'one flesh' has never been used in relation to children. Second, bringing up genetic material gets into a component of the Virgin Birth that simply will not bear scrutiny. Third, without attempting to derail the thread, a pro-life claim that centers on the rights of an unborn fetus is incompatible with the viewpoint that a woman and her fetus are viewed as one.

How was the Incarnation possible? How can Adam's sin effect all of the universe? How can the mere fact of being born human make me prone to sin and fallen? How can any being with a real human will ever be sinless like we'll all be someday? These are things I don't know, I don't think anyone can know. If Mary was sinless, I'd just add one more mystery to the pile.

That's my point, though. There are plenty of mysteries without unnecessarily adding more.

[George Blaisdell]

Well, that raises the question of which churchmen get to be counted as part of "infallible tradition" and which don't. For the Protestant the answer is clear: The 66 books of the Old and New Testament alone are inspired and infallible. Anything else in Tradition can be wrong and should be examined for adherence to the Bible.

You received the Holy Tradition of the Biblical Canon FROM the Church which faithfully passed on down to us hand-scripted copies of it for 1500+ years...

We do not understand the Faith as a syllogism... Holy Tradition is a living thing, handed down from generation to generation... The very term "INFALLIBLE" is Roman Catholic and Protestant - It is not a term out of the Holy Tradition of the historical Body of Christ...

What Holy Tradition IS can be discerned from within the Body of Christ as those elements which are affirmed at all times by all... And that translates to all times by most... And the rulings of the Ecumenical councils... The Canons of the Faith - Where a Canon is not understood narrowly as a LAW, but in its more aboriginal sense as a "yardstick" to guide those who guide the flock... There are always exceptions... God will have mercy on whom He WILL have mercy...

So there are many Orthodox books on the Dogmatic Theology of the Faith in Orthodoxy... They are all pretty good... But they are to be understood from within the Orthodox Christian Faith... You cannot do with them what the JW's do with the Bible, which is to understand its words as mere grammatical constructs... The Faith of Orthodox Christians is known from within, and not from without, the Church... Outside the Church, you can only know ABOUT this Faith... Just as someone who has never been married can know ABOUT marriage, but until you GET married, you don't know Schnartz the very thing you claim to know about...

So that cherry picking the Biblical Canon from Holy Tradition without entering into the Faith which practices it will not get you very far... You will be a 13 year old unmarried expert on marriage... I must say that the Bible reads VERY differently for an Orthodox Christian than it does for non-Orthodox... We understand it from the frame of reference of the praxis of Orthodoxy, and the non-O's simply do not have this frame of reference.

Arsenios

[George Blaisdell]

What reason do we have to believe that Mary was sinless?
Claiming that Mary was "one flesh with Him in her womb" doesn't have a ring of truth, it has the ring of wordplay.

OK...

Sooo....???

What part does God have with sin?
And what part does Jesus have with Mary?

You can do the math...

She is the Blessed Virgin...

You DO call her Blessed, do you not?
That is a term of reverence, Yes?

Arsenios

[maudman]

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Hey!Hey!Hey it's ole spauline.. How goes it spaul...