Happy Immaculate Conception!

[RBerman]

You received the Holy Tradition of the Biblical Canon FROM the Church which faithfully passed on down to us hand-scripted copies of it for 1500+ years...

That is true. I am grateful to those who preserved Scripture for us. But when it comes to the question, "What is the only error-free rule for faith and practice?" the only answer is, "The Bible," not "The Bible and other elements of church tradition." Church tradition is the work of fallible men like you and me. I know I can't look at my life and say, "Everyone should do exactly what I have done." The same is true of saints in bygone days.

[Carrikature]

OK...

Sooo....???

What part does God have with sin?
And what part does Jesus have with Mary?

You can do the math...

I have no idea what you are asking me.

She is the Blessed Virgin...

You DO call her Blessed, do you not?

I do not. I don't call her anything. It is extremely rare that her existence is mentioned. Why should it be?

[Rdr. Arsenios]

That is true. I am grateful to those who preserved Scripture for us.

Good - Then you are grateful to the historical Body of Christ. This Canon was handed down, hand scripted, IN THE FAITH of the Church which WROTE IT... Paul was a member of this Church, as was Peter, and Titus, and on and on...

But when it comes to the question, "What is the only error-free rule for faith and practice?" the only answer is, "The Bible," not "The Bible and other elements of church tradition." Church tradition is the work of fallible men like you and me. I know I can't look at my life and say, "Everyone should do exactly what I have done." The same is true of saints in bygone days.

The Bible was written by fallible men, yet inspired by the Holy Spirit... What they wrote was true... Yet easy to mis-understand... Look at the JW's and the TONS of differing positions on the meaning of Holy Writ... Even here on T-Web... 'Tain't no rocket science...

But - IF you wish to say that the Bible rules over the Body of Christ, then why do you not believe the Bible when it plainly tells you that it is the Body of Christ, Who is Her Head, it is the Church, that is the ground and pillar of Truth, against which the gates of Hades shall not prevail? Why do you not believe the Bible when it tells you that you are to OBEY the elders [Presbyters] of the Church, [and not the Bible, I might add.] And that there is no such thing as a different Gospel, but even more, that there should be no DIFFERING Gospels, and then you look at YOUR Gospel, and everybody ELSE'S Gospel, and they all differ, and they all proclaim the Bible as the ground and pillar of Truth, which the Bible itself denies?

Nowhere in the Bible does it say that the Bible has rulership over the Body of Christ...

To believe this is to believe in Bibliolatry...

Holy Writ is Sacred and a treasury of the Faith...

Outside this historic and Apostolic Faith, it is just another book...

Islamics, as a for instance, have no clue what it means...

Tearing the Bible out of the matrix of the Faith which produced it
And elevating it above the Body of Christ Who is Her Head...
Is just plain wrong...

And you can see the results in this degenerational once Christian culture that is worshipping fat and tatoo parlours all around us...
And in the closing of the Churches...
And in atheistic Europe...

Arsenios - Who kisses his Bible every reading...

[Rdr. Arsenios]

I have no idea what you are asking me.

I do not. I don't call her anything. It is extremely rare that her existence is mentioned. Why should it be?

Thank-you...

A.

[RBerman]

The Bible was written by fallible men, yet inspired by the Holy Spirit... What they wrote was true... Yet easy to mis-understand... Look at the JW's and the TONS of differing positions on the meaning of Holy Writ... Even here on T-Web... 'Tain't no rocket science...

But - IF you wish to say that the Bible rules over the Body of Christ, then why do you not believe the Bible when it plainly tells you that it is the Body of Christ, Who is Her Head, it is the Church, that is the ground and pillar of Truth, against which the gates of Hades shall not prevail? Why do you not believe the Bible when it tells you that you are to OBEY the elders [Presbyters] of the Church, [and not the Bible, I might add.] And that there is no such thing as a different Gospel, but even more, that there should be no DIFFERING Gospels, and then you look at YOUR Gospel, and everybody ELSE'S Gospel, and they all differ, and they all proclaim the Bible as the ground and pillar of Truth, which the Bible itself denies?

The Bible tells us to obey the elders of the church to the degree that they follow God. "But if any man, even I or an angel, brings you another gospel, let him be anathema!" Thus the Bereans were commended for judging even the Apostle Paul by the standard of Scripture.

[Rdr. Arsenios]

The Bible tells us to obey the elders of the church to the degree that they follow God.

My Brother, the Bible does not tell us to obey Presbyters to some degree...

"But if any man, even I or an angel, brings you another gospel, let him be anathema!"

And the quote, translated above as different, actually means DIFFERING...

At the time this was written, of course, there was no New Testament... The Gospel was proclaimed by the spoken word and confirmed by signs and miracles... It still is...

But obey to some DEGREE??? Not at all, but to ANATHEMATIZE ANYONE with a DIFFERING Gospel...

And this the Church has faithfully done for 2,000 years...

Thus the Bereans were commended for judging even the Apostle Paul by the standard of Scripture.

Paul proclaimed Christ as foretold in the Old Testament - And the Bereans looked up the passages and confirmed his claims... He as well went beyond the Old Testament in the teachings of Christ... Loving one's enemies is not an OT precept, yes?

Arsenios

[Rdr. Arsenios]

The Bible tells us to obey the elders of the church to the degree that they follow God. "But if any man, even I or an angel, brings you another gospel, let him be anathema!" Thus the Bereans were commended for judging even the Apostle Paul by the standard of Scripture.

But again, why do you not believe the Bible where it tells you that it is the Body of Christ, and not the Bible, that is the ground and pillar of the Truth, against which the Gates of Hades shall not prevail? If Christ Himself is the Head of His Own Body, then why should something written be placed over and above the living Christ?

Why do you not believe the Bible?

Arsenios

[Kelp]

Even if I granted that there are no reasons not to believe it, that doesn't mean I should accept it either. Lack of arguments against is not the same as arguments for.

True.

It has little to no significance (or relevance for that matter) from what I can tell, and I aim for minimalism whenever possible.

Every truth of God is precious and significant (assuming it's true, of course).

Also, Mary said that all generations would call her blessed, in order to do so to the fullest, we should make sure we know the whole truth about her that God has revealed.

I'm not trying to convince you of it here, I wouldn't know how since I don't understand the Orthodox view of authority too well yet. Just trying out the logical implications of it.

I disagree. First, to my knowledge 'one flesh' has never been used in relation to children. Second, bringing up genetic material gets into a component of the Virgin Birth that simply will not bear scrutiny. Third, without attempting to derail the thread, a pro-life claim that centers on the rights of an unborn fetus is incompatible with the viewpoint that a woman and her fetus are viewed as one.

You may be right, but I get the feeling you're taking the term a bit too literally. The point is that their bodies were connected in such a way that no other human has ever been with Jesus. It's a level of intimate relationship that by default none of us will ever feel with Him.

I don't know, maybe my reasoning is too fuzzy, but I'm not sure how someone could be that close to the Son of God and not be changed at an unfathomable level. And since sinlessness through dwelling with Him is God's ultimate goal for each believer...

[RBerman]

But again, why do you not believe the Bible where it tells you that it is the Body of Christ, and not the Bible, that is the ground and pillar of the Truth, against which the Gates of Hades shall not prevail? If Christ Himself is the Head of His Own Body, then why should something written be placed over and above the living Christ?

You appear to have a particular interpretation of what it means for the church to be "the ground and pillar of the truth" and for the gates of Hades to not prevail against it and for Christ to be the head of the church. It's hardly self-evident that such phrases mean that the church never makes a mistake which needs to be corrected by Scripture.

[Rdr. Arsenios]

You appear to have a particular interpretation of what it means for the church to be "the ground and pillar of the truth" and for the gates of Hades to not prevail against it and for Christ to be the head of the church. It's hardly self-evident that such phrases mean that the church never makes a mistake which needs to be corrected by Scripture.

Christ IS the Truth...
The Church is the ground and pillar of Christ...
This means that the Truth is to be found in the Church because Christ IS the Truth...

The Bible is ABOUT Christ...
It can never be OVER Him...
Fallible human beings make mistakes all the time in the Church...
But the Church is the Body of Christ Who is Her Head...
He gave Himself for His Bride...
Revelation teaches what happens when a Church departs from Christ...
It's Lampstand is taken away...

What makes you think fallen man can interpret the infallible Bible infallibly?
He simply cannot...
Paul and all the saints suffer for the Church...

The Ethiopian Eunich had his Bible, remember???
When asked if he knew who it was referring to in a passage, do you remember his reply?
"How CAN I Lord? I have no one to EXPLAIN it to me..."

Remember?

If the Bereans were sola's,
They would not have needed Paul
Because it was ALREADY written...

BUT...

They did not know the MEANING...
Paul's teachings were strange to them...
They had to go back and double check them...

They NEEDED Paul to SHOW them the meaning
Which their reading could not comprehend...

Same with Jesus disciples after His resurrection...
He had to SHOW them the meaning of the OT...
He had to open their minds so they could know...

Remember?

Arsenios

[Rdr. Arsenios]

I don't understand the Orthodox view of authority too well yet.

The treasury of Orthodoxy is obedience...
The treasury of the Latin Church is authority...

The Reformation is the Child of Latin Rome...
The apple does NOT fall FAR from the tree...

Arsenios

[St Croix]

Christ IS the Truth...
The Church is the ground and pillar of Christ...
This means that the Truth is to be found in the Church because Christ IS the Truth...

Dangerous statements. Contrast:

Gal 2:13 The other Jews joined [Peter] in his hypocrisy, so that by their hypocrisy even Barnabas was led astray.

2Th 2:4 He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God.

[RBerman]

Christ IS the Truth...
The Church is the ground and pillar of Christ...
This means that the Truth is to be found in the Church because Christ IS the Truth...

That doesn't make the church infallible, George. You admit the same when you say:

Fallible human beings make mistakes all the time in the Church...
What makes you think fallen man can interpret the infallible Bible infallibly?
He simply cannot...

You're right that fallible men interpret the BIble fallibly. Fallible men like you, and me, and Chrysostom, and those who made up any church council you'd like to name.

If the Bereans were sola's,
They would not have needed Paul
Because it was ALREADY written...

God has given the church teachers. But the word of those teachers is to be compared with Scripture, not just blindly accepted.

[Rdr. Arsenios]

Dangerous statements. Contrast:

Gal 2:13 The other Jews joined [Peter] in his hypocrisy, so that by their hypocrisy even Barnabas was led astray.

2Th 2:4 He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God.

Rome tried to elevate Herself over the Body of Christ by claiming Peter had authority over the rest of the Apostles and therefore was infallible... The undivided Church of the first thousand years was NEVER this kind of authoritarian... It was always conciliar, working through the ecumenical councils for its canons... It is STILL conciliar... And Latin Rome STILL wants to be boss...

Arsenios

[Rdr. Arsenios]

That doesn't make the church infallible, George.

Infallibility is YOUR issue, my brother, not mine...

Because YOU are the child of the falsely infallible Rome...

Rome set Herself up as infallible so as to RULE the Body of Christ...

Christ IS the Head of His Body, not Rome...

Clergy, Bishops, Patriarchs and Popes come...

And they GO...

Christ remains...

The Body of Christ on earth...

The Church...

You're right that fallible men interpret the BIble fallibly.
Fallible men like you, and me, and Chrysostom, and those who made up any church council you'd like to name.

And fallible men WROTE the Bible, and passed it on to other fallible men...

IN THE BODY OF CHRIST...

It was not handed out to Muslims in hotel rooms...

You cannot avoid attacking Christ if you attack the men who wrote and preserved His Holy Words in His Holy Faith...

Saul assisted in the martyrdom of Stephen by stoning...
Christ said to him, "Saul, Saul, Why are you persecuting ME?"
Know ye not RBerman that it is PERSONS, not books,
That comprise the Body of Christ in a Mystery?

These are holy men and women in Christ...
Living holy and repentant lives...
In purity of heart...

If you want to see some of what this looks like, watch 60 Minutes this Easter Sunday, Pascha...

It is not a bunch of guys sitting around studying words and agreeing with each other and calling themselves saved...

It is a liturgical life of worship, prayer, fasting and labors of love...

God has given the church teachers. But the word of those teachers is to be compared with Scripture, not just blindly accepted.

God has given us holy men and women, my brother...

"Ye have many teachers, but few Fathers..." [Paul]

Teaching the word is for beginners in this journey...

It is the milk, my brother...

The naming of the portal that enter the Kingdom of Heaven,

Which is at hand...

"Repent and be baptized..." are WORDS...

Repenting and being baptized are ACTIONS...

God Bless You...

Arsenios