1Timothy 2:3-4.

[Marth]

I am one who believe that not all will be saved. But it is not because of free will. It is because man, lacking the free will, have no true self virtue. It does not in any case give obligation for God save unworthy beings.

Also, the salvation according to promise was not given to ALL. God give the promise to Isaac only, excluding Ishmael. So the salvation that was offered by Christ were for the "seed" after Isaac.

Peace,
FEB

I thought all men fall short of the glory of God and that there is not one righteous. The only way for this to be understood without contradiction is for all those who are willing might receive it. Subjectively and ignorantly saying 'this person or that person' will or will not be able to be saved puts one into the role of God by using his measuring rod, which is the heart of man.

Romans 10:
6But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above:)

7Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.)

8But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;

[mickiel]

So if he indeed sets limitations for himself, and there is such a thing as free will to choose. Would he go against his character by forcing those who do not want relations with Him, to be with Him? The way I understand it is that if you do not want to accept the free gift of Salvation, then that's your choice and you'll ultimately get what you want. Those that say they want it, yet do not receive it will likewise not attain it by lip service and selfish motive. Also, perhaps, those that say they do not want it, yet in their heart would willingly receive it, would receive it.

Though I really don't know.

Well I know you don't know. In the book of revelations, it reveals a force that God will use to convince humanity that this earth has never seen before. Read the book, its full of God using force on humanity, and after its over, there will be no one who is against him.

Peace.

[Marth]

Well I know you don't know. In the book of revelations, it reveals a force that God will use to convince humanity that this earth has never seen before. Read the book, its full of God using force on humanity, and after its over, there will be no one who is against him.

Peace.

Physical force isn't the same as what you're talking about. Trying to equate the two doesn't follow. Forcing someone to love God is not possible, killing a bunch of people doesn't relate to this at all. When Jesus talks about life, he's not talking about life as we know it. That and many other instances suggests to me that physical life isn't as important to God as spiritual life. Is God going to allow someone to impose their will on him that is counter to his own? Doubtful.

Btw, it's the book of Revelation. As in one revelation that the Father gave the Son. And I have read it.

[mickiel]

Physical force isn't the same as what you're talking about. Trying to equate the two doesn't follow. Forcing someone to love God is not possible, killing a bunch of people doesn't relate to this at all. When Jesus talks about life, he's not talking about life as we know it. That and many other instances suggests to me that physical life isn't as important to God as spiritual life. Is God going to allow someone to impose their will on him that is counter to his own? Doubtful.

Btw, it's the book of Revelation. As in one revelation that the Father gave the Son. And I have read it.

Well the book is explicit in its detail, God will a " Third of mankind" when this stuff starts, Rev. 9:15. Thats going to be a whole lot of people. In vs. 18 another third is killed, thats two thirds. Thats some serious killing, and serious force in my view.

But I agree that physical life is not as important as Spiritual life with God, I agree with that.

Peace.

[Marth]

Well the book is explicit in its detail, God will a " Third of mankind" when this stuff starts, Rev. 9:15. Thats going to be a whole lot of people. In vs. 18 another third is killed, thats two thirds. Thats some serious killing, and serious force in my view.

But I agree that physical life is not as important as Spiritual life with God, I agree with that.

Peace.

You'll have to show me where killing someone is similar to forcing someone to love you.

Also, I think you're missing the context a bit too. These people are those that took the mark, no longer able to be saved, not humans. Killing these people is like really fun apparently. They're actively warring against God in open rebellion. This would be the 'in the days of Noah' time. Where the seed of men was corrupted.

[mickiel]

You'll have to show me where killing someone is similar to forcing someone to love you.

Also, I think you're missing the context a bit too. These people are those that took the mark, no longer able to be saved, not humans. Killing these people is like really fun apparently. They're actively warring against God in open rebellion. This would be the 'in the days of Noah' time. Where the seed of men was corrupted.

I don't have to show you anything more, if you can't see this, why show you anything more? I am not trying to convince you. These people are not warring against God, they are everyday normal humans. If you can't see that killing 2/3rds of humanity is force, I KNOW that I can't show you any more.

Peace.

[theblueprint_Ni]

mickiel,

You don't seem to be lacking in knowledge of the Bible considering how my scripture references you have used thus far to support your positions, so I'm a little confused as to how you have developed these strange ideas about salvation and theodicy when you have read enough of it to easily dismiss them. I'm also surprised that you've taken an interest in the book of Revelation considering that it contains, in my opinion, the strongest evidence for eternal damnation than any other book of the Bible. It's imaginative to think that God created Satan for the purpose of adversity, however the Bible does not support this. I'm sure you thought it through and believe it to be a sound theory, but scripture is simply against it. Do you go to church? I ask because what you have written so far somewhat reminds me of myself years ago when I began to study the Bible on my own without a body of believesr to teach and guide me into a more proper orthodoxy. Not having one often leads to unintentional heresy.

[mickiel]

mickiel,

You don't seem to be lacking in knowledge of the Bible considering how my scripture references you have used thus far to support your positions, so I'm a little confused as to how you have developed these strange ideas about salvation and theodicy when you have read enough of it to easily dismiss them. I'm also surprised that you've taken an interest in the book of Revelation considering that it contains, in my opinion, the strongest evidence for eternal damnation than any other book of the Bible. It's imaginative to think that God created Satan for the purpose of adversity, however the Bible does not support this. I'm sure you thought it through and believe it to be a sound theory, but scripture is simply against it. Do you go to church? I ask because what you have written so far somewhat reminds me of myself years ago when I began to study the Bible on my own without a body of believesr to teach and guide me into a more proper orthodoxy. Not having one often leads to unintentional heresy.

I think eternal hell torture is a strange idea. I think 3 Gods is a strange idea. I think limited Salvation, or salvation obtained only by acceptance is a strange Idea. And Revelevations is not the strongest evidence for eternal damnation, christians are. The bible supports everything I have stated, and I have given 100's of scriptures to support my interpitation.

I don't go to church, because most of them think like you, so I have no fellowship with that, and I leave them in peace, I wouldnot " Fit in" a church, as I do not fit in here. All they would eventually do is put me out, as is destined to happen to me here.

I would rather study the bible on my own, without human meddling and interference.

Peace.

[theblueprint_Ni]

I suspected as much. I could tell by both the form and content of your message that you probably did associate with other Christians. I understand you well enough because there was a time when I was deterred from joining a church as well. The first couple of years after I got saved I was of a similar mindset and never went to church. The nature of my conversion was such that it was difficult to relate to other Christians. A heavy atmosphere of spiritual warfare was the defining factor that led me to Christ, and it also divided me from others who professed the same faith. I was of the opinion that their spiritual senses were dull, if not completely dead, and could hardly contribute to my learning or growth as a Christian. They lacked enlightenment and revelation, and would likely even hinder and stall my progress if anything. It was during this period that I developed strange ideas similar to the ones you have expressed here. I too believed that God created Satan to supply the role of adversity, as well as the oneness of God’s person. But I was mistaken in all of this.

My brother, you err. You are not quite as special as you think. God did not call you as the one among many for the special purpose of being a wandering sage. It is not “destined” for you to be this person of your own making. You are but one member in the overall body of Christ (1 Cor. 12), and are not to withdraw from the fellowship of other believers (Heb. 10:25). You need a teacher and a soft rebuke to correct you from the path you are on. If you continue in this pattern of segregating from other believers, you are essentially handing yourself over to the lions to be devoured. Being outcast from the assembly was a punishment for unrepentant sin (1 Cor. 5), and isn’t something to be desired or honored. If you consider a church and hold fast to the heretical views on which you currently stand, you will be dis-fellowshipped and rightfully so (2 Thess. 3:6).

If you believe the Bible is literal and true, then you are gravely mishandling and unwisely discerning the text. I do not know what you do with the doctrines of eternal damnation in light of Luke 16, Matt. 10:28, Rev. 20, etc.., or the exclusivity of faith in Christ as our only hope for heaven in light of John 3:36, 14:6, Acts 4:12, Matt. 7, etc… You must have seen it, else you have completely missed the passages altogether. There is a vast body of sound Biblical information at your fingertips just waiting to be accessed. Nearly two thousand years of accumulated knowledge built from the minds and lives of godly men through study, scriptural meditation, experience, prayer, and everything else that defines the Christian life is available for you and is far larger than your ability to study “without human meddling and interference”. You are not above the visible church that continues to this day to meet in local congregations.

Walk differently, consider what I’m saying, and more importantly study the Scriptures with stronger sincerity. Brother, I personally know your path, and it is flawed and dangerous. Find a Bible believing church, get discipled, and build you knowledge from a sound foundation.

[mickiel]

[QUOTE=theblueprint_Ni;3135908

If you believe the Bible is literal and true, then you are gravely mishandling and unwisely discerning the text. I do not know what you do with the doctrines of eternal damnation in light of Luke 16, Matt. 10:28, Rev. 20, etc.., or the exclusivity of faith in Christ as our only hope for heaven in light of John 3:36, 14:6, Acts 4:12, Matt. 7, etc… You must have seen it, else you have completely missed the passages altogether. There is a vast body of sound Biblical information at your fingertips just waiting to be accessed. Nearly two thousand years of accumulated knowledge built from the minds and lives of godly men through study, scriptural meditation, experience, prayer, and everything else that defines the Christian life is available for you and is far larger than your ability to study “without human meddling and interference”. You are not above the visible church that continues to this day to meet in local congregations.

Walk differently, consider what I’m saying, and more importantly study the Scriptures with stronger sincerity. Brother, I personally know your path, and it is flawed and dangerous. Find a Bible believing church, get discipled, and build you knowledge from a sound foundation.[/QUOTE]



Well firstly, I honor your concern, and I thank you for that. Yet I walk alone in my path, not because I am special or called to do so, I am not. I do not yet know God, and I have been to churchs before, was raised in one for 27 years, tried another for 10 more years, they are not for me. If God wants me in a church, then he will have to put me in one. If God wants me discipled, then he will have to do it. The foundation and knowledge must come directly from him, not churchs or men, such is the way for me.

As far as Luke 16, I like verse 15; A believer can be justified in the sight of men( churchs and being dicipled) but God knows the heart, those things that are highly esteemed by men, are detestable in the sight of God, I will take my chances with God dealing with me. Matt. 10:28 Jesus states that body and soul can be destroyed in hell, not eternally punished in it, which I understand to mean that no flesh will inherit Gods Kingdom. Rev. 20 in my view is a confirmation of satans future, death and hades ( or hell) are destroyed, this second death is the death of the first death. And IF anyones name was not found in the book of life, they were thrown into the lake of fire, I believe all human names are in that book. John 3:36 speaks of those who do not obey shall not see life, I view Gods power of conversion as the change from disobedience to obedience, and he will give that change to all, freely. John 14:6, Jesus is the way, he said if he be lifted up, he will draw all humans to that way. Acts 4:12, Only in Jesus name is Salvation, Jesus said he came not for the righteous, but for all sinners, I am covered under that, you still can't take away my Salvation. And Matt. 7, I am not sure which verse you are using to show condemnation, but vs. 7 states seek and you shall find, knock and it will be opened, In Isaian 45:23 God has sworn that ALL humans will be placed into this seeking and finding mode.

Everywhere in the bible that you find condemnation, I can in turn find Salvation and hope, grace and mercy, forgiveness and Justification for poor humans like me.

Peace.

[theblueprint_Ni]

That's wrong, my friend. I've prayed you.

[mickiel]

That's wrong, my friend. I've prayed you.

Whats wrong is to believe that God created billions of humans, just to save a few of them, thats wrong! Whats wrong is to believe its hopeless for those who reject God, thats wrong. Whats wrong is to know and read that God seriously desires that all humans be saved, then to think that he is not powerful enough to get all that he desires.

What would be wrong is for me to let someone disciple me into believing that Salvation is " Everyone for himself", that Jesus came only for the righteous or believers, or christians.

What would be wrong is for me to join a church that believes that Salvation is limited to that denomination only.

Whats wrong is to allow such shortsighted things into my belief.

Peace.

[Marth]

You should write your own bible!

I'm getting a heavens gate vibe here....

Hell must exist if evil exists. If you had a child and made a rule that no one will rape this child, why would you invite in a serial rapist to your house? You wouldn't, neither will God. You might be a rapist before you step into God's house, but you're going to the fire either way. At least that's how I read it. And I don't go to church either. All you need is the bible; I'd rather surround myself with those questioning it than those talking about taxes and singing songs about animals, or babbling in baby talk, false doctrines, etc.

[mickiel]

You should write your own bible!

I'm getting a heavens gate vibe here....

Hell must exist if evil exists. If you had a child and made a rule that no one will rape this child, why would you invite in a serial rapist to your house? You wouldn't, neither will God. You might be a rapist before you step into God's house, but you're going to the fire either way. At least that's how I read it. And I don't go to church either. All you need is the bible; I'd rather surround myself with those questioning it than those talking about taxes and singing songs about animals, or babbling in baby talk, false doctrines, etc.

If I had Gods power, of course I would invite the rapist, because I know once he gets there, change and forgiveness is waiting for him. There is no eternal hell fire, you don't even go to church and youv'e been duped by that doctrine. Thats how deep its deception has penertrated. When rapist are drawn to Gods true house, they are changed when they get there. Forgiverness is waiting on them, a new birth is waiting on them, a new life is waiting on them. I know God will accept them in, its people like you who would turn them away.

Peace.

[theblueprint_Ni]

And I don't go to church either. All you need is the bible; I'd rather surround myself with those questioning it than those talking about taxes and singing songs about animals, or babbling in baby talk, false doctrines, etc.

1 Corinthians 12

14 For in fact the body is not one member but many.
15 If the foot should say, “Because I am not a hand, I am not of the body,” is it therefore not of the body? 16 And if the ear should say, “Because I am not an eye, I am not of the body,” is it therefore not of the body? 17 If the whole body were an eye, where would be the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where would be the smelling? 18 But now God has set the members, each one of them, in the body just as He pleased. 19 And if they were all one member, where would the body be?

20 But now indeed there are many members, yet one body. 21 And the eye cannot say to the hand, “I have no need of you”; nor again the head to the feet, “I have no need of you.” 22 No, much rather, those members of the body which seem to be weaker are necessary.

27 Now you are the body of Christ, and members individually. 28 And God has appointed these in the church: first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, varieties of tongues.

That ain't right, Marth. The Bible tells you to be a part of the church. That's the bride of Christ that you're offending. You're not above the church. Refusing membership is equivalent to Paul's remark in v.21. The "eye" is a good example as a part of the body more likely to boast than the rest. You may think that you can see things more clearly than the others, thus you don't need them, but you are mistaken. You need the body or you wont move even an inch. See things a little more clearly with those eyes of yours, rethink His church, and hold her in a higher regard. You need the body, and the body needs you. This is the desire of the Lord that we all be a part of the body without schism.