Faith for Non-Believers

[NormATive]

I am weary of having to pretend that I believe in supernatural occurrence in order to practice my faith.

Nearly 40 years as a Christian, and several years in Reformed Judaism, I've taken the best of both worlds and forged a sense of place in the world and no longer feel the need to worship ghosts.

Is there anyone else out there who has had enough of the stupidity of hanging onto pre-enlightenment ideas of magic and mysticism? Haven't we seen enough of killing in the name of God, G-d, Gods, Allah, and ETC? Are you as sick as I am over the politics of personal destruction in which we engage to appease our fictitious gods?

If so, let's see what kind of world we can envision based on reason, common decency, common sense and belief in the common good of mankind instead of the dictates of dead deities.

Personally, having released myself from the mental anguish of trying to reconcile the supernatural in a natural world and explaining why a book written by poets, religious fanatics and madmen should dictate human behavior, I can actually enjoy my life on this planet a little more. I can now focus on finding ways to help others enjoy life, take in the beauty of the world and dance when I want to.

As a group, those who embrace the PHILOSOPHY of Christ, the TEACHING of Judaism and the PERSONAL RESPONSIBILTY of Islam rather than the dogmatism and fanaticism of their usurpers, can forge a world where there are no boundaries to acceptance and no barriers to love.

Further, theists of other religious expressions can provide further enlightenment as we begin anew as people who crave faith, but refuse to leave our intellect behind.

Let's debate the merits of a miracle-free religion. Is one philosophy of religion better than another? Or are there nuances we can grab from each one? Can we mature enough as people of enlightenment to rise above the ecclesiastical equivalent of "my dad is better than your dad?"

Let's at least give it a whirl.

It's a shame that this has to happen in the obscure Unorthodox Theology thread, but this discussion will not happen in Theology 201, which despite the title, is a Christian ONLY thread, where even challenging the trinitarian dogma is verbotten.

I'm hoping the title will entice dogmatic Christians to weigh in and try to envision their faith without reliance on the supernatural.

That's the only rule in this thread: no miracles, no walking dead, no three-in-one beings.

NORM

[FarEastBird]

Faith for Non-Believers

I am weary of having to pretend that I believe in supernatural occurrence in order to practice my faith.

If you would not like to believe in the supernatural, then you wont believe in the after life. If so, I counsel you to take Paul's advice: " If after the manner of men I have fought with beasts at Ephesus, what advantages it me, if the dead rise not? let us eat and drink; for to morrow we die."

It will be hard for us to control sin if our perspective is focused to lusting, where sin begins to sprout.

Peace,
FEB

[OneSizeFit]

The nature of humanity, is "I am right, you are wrong." And that will never cease.

But the deepest parts of the gospel have nothing to do with miracles.

Matt 6

26 Look at the birds of the air; they do not sow or reap or store away in barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not much more valuable than they? 27 Can any one of you by worrying add a single hour to your life[a]?

28 “And why do you worry about clothes? See how the flowers of the field grow. They do not labor or spin. 29 Yet I tell you that not even Solomon in all his splendor was dressed like one of these. 30 If that is how God clothes the grass of the field, which is here today and tomorrow is thrown into the fire, will he not much more clothe you—you of little faith? 31 So do not worry, saying, ‘What shall we eat?’ or ‘What shall we drink?’ or ‘What shall we wear?’ 32 For the pagans run after all these things, and your heavenly Father knows that you need them. 33 But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well. 34 Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own.

[OneSizeFit]

If you would not like to believe in the supernatural, then you wont believe in the after life. If so, I counsel you to take Paul's advice: " If after the manner of men I have fought with beasts at Ephesus, what advantages it me, if the dead rise not? let us eat and drink; for to morrow we die."

It will be hard for us to control sin if our perspective is focused to lusting, where sin begins to sprout.

Peace,
FEB

I know atheists/agnostics who are less sinful than Christians (I know some scum bag Christians, seriously, my own cousin for one - the fear of hell can only go so far). Paul was making the point that Law only creates a desire to break it. If you tell a kid, dont touch, dont touch, what is he/she want to do as soon as you arent around...

[NormATive]

If you would not like to believe in the supernatural

Slight correction here. It's not that I "would not like" to believe in the supernatural, I CAN'T believe in the supernatural. No matter how hard I try, I just can't justify belief in miracles. My senses are all intact, and they tell me that dead people stay dead, and history tells me that human sacrifice (atonement?) is a bad thing.

then you wont believe in the after life. If so, I counsel you to take Paul's advice: " If after the manner of men I have fought with beasts at Ephesus, what advantages it me, if the dead rise not? let us eat and drink; for to morrow we die."

It will be hard for us to control sin if our perspective is focused to lusting, where sin begins to sprout.

I don't seem to have any problems struggling with lust or wanting to sin just because I don't believe in miracles. In fact, I am so "straight," some would say I'm boring. I don't even exceed the speed limit on the highway.

So, if it is your contention that without a belief in the supernatural, we would all be sex-crazed, drug addicted heathens, your theory crumbles in my experience. I know of plenty other (amazing how many "christians" suffer the same affliction as I) naturalists who are decent, law-abiding citizens.

Shalom,

NORM

[NormATive]

The nature of humanity, is "I am right, you are wrong." And that will never cease.

I believe that human nature is far more complex than you seem to be indicating. Not all people, thankfully, share your characteristic. I hope that you can take steps to correct that tendency you confess to having.

But the deepest parts of the gospel have nothing to do with miracles.

Matt 6

26 Look at the birds of the air; they do not sow or reap or store away in barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not much more valuable than they? 27 Can any one of you by worrying add a single hour to your life[a]?

28 “And why do you worry about clothes? See how the flowers of the field grow. They do not labor or spin. 29 Yet I tell you that not even Solomon in all his splendor was dressed like one of these. 30 If that is how God clothes the grass of the field, which is here today and tomorrow is thrown into the fire, will he not much more clothe you—you of little faith? 31 So do not worry, saying, ‘What shall we eat?’ or ‘What shall we drink?’ or ‘What shall we wear?’ 32 For the pagans run after all these things, and your heavenly Father knows that you need them. 33 But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well. 34 Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own.

Growing up in the Christian Church, I often wondered why most folks in the Church seemed obsessed with "hard work" and "maximizing profits." It seems that even now, there is a conservative surge among Christians that seem to emphasize the exact opposite of the above passage.

I happen to share that perspective, btw. I believe that we must work to provide for our families. I think it the height of irresponsibility to just sit back and say that "G-d will provide" while your children are sleeping on mattresses on the floor and no milk for their Cheerios.

I tend to avoid dinner parties of someone with the attitude "what shall we eat / what shall we drink."

I prefer to plan ahead.

NORM

[NormATive]

I know atheists/agnostics who are less sinful than Christians (I know some scum bag Christians, seriously, my own cousin for one - the fear of hell can only go so far). Paul was making the point that Law only creates a desire to break it. If you tell a kid, dont touch, dont touch, what is he/she want to do as soon as you arent around...

Yes, I often encountered people that seemed to have it all together when I was younger. I had assumed at the time that they were Christians, because I was taught that people without religion were all screwed up and couldn't possibly be good people. I did observe a few Christians who were bad eggs, but there were admittedly few of these - most were decent folks. At least in public!

My own grandfather, whom I admired for his charity (he housed several poor families during the Depression on his farm), turned out to be an Atheist to my surprise.

Paul had a monumental task before him; he had to somehow convince observant Jews to abandon their faith and join him in creating a new one. His arguments in Romans are classic. He definitely knew his audience.

NORM

[Sparko]

I am weary of having to pretend that I believe in supernatural occurrence in order to practice my faith.

Nearly 40 years as a Christian, and several years in Reformed Judaism, I've taken the best of both worlds and forged a sense of place in the world and no longer feel the need to worship ghosts.

Is there anyone else out there who has had enough of the stupidity of hanging onto pre-enlightenment ideas of magic and mysticism? Haven't we seen enough of killing in the name of God, G-d, Gods, Allah, and ETC? Are you as sick as I am over the politics of personal destruction in which we engage to appease our fictitious gods?

If so, let's see what kind of world we can envision based on reason, common decency, common sense and belief in the common good of mankind instead of the dictates of dead deities.

Personally, having released myself from the mental anguish of trying to reconcile the supernatural in a natural world and explaining why a book written by poets, religious fanatics and madmen should dictate human behavior, I can actually enjoy my life on this planet a little more. I can now focus on finding ways to help others enjoy life, take in the beauty of the world and dance when I want to.

As a group, those who embrace the PHILOSOPHY of Christ, the TEACHING of Judaism and the PERSONAL RESPONSIBILTY of Islam rather than the dogmatism and fanaticism of their usurpers, can forge a world where there are no boundaries to acceptance and no barriers to love.

Further, theists of other religious expressions can provide further enlightenment as we begin anew as people who crave faith, but refuse to leave our intellect behind.

Let's debate the merits of a miracle-free religion. Is one philosophy of religion better than another? Or are there nuances we can grab from each one? Can we mature enough as people of enlightenment to rise above the ecclesiastical equivalent of "my dad is better than your dad?"

Let's at least give it a whirl.

It's a shame that this has to happen in the obscure Unorthodox Theology thread, but this discussion will not happen in Theology 201, which despite the title, is a Christian ONLY thread, where even challenging the trinitarian dogma is verbotten.

I'm hoping the title will entice dogmatic Christians to weigh in and try to envision their faith without reliance on the supernatural.

That's the only rule in this thread: no miracles, no walking dead, no three-in-one beings.

NORM

Moderated By: Sparko

Sorry Norm, but your topic is even too far out there for Unorthodox Theology. Unorthodox Theology is for Unorthodox Christians mostly, but at least those who believe in a God something like the Christian God. As a Deist, and someone promoting NON-BELIEF, it is not for this area.

As a side note: Deists, who do not believe in a personal God, are not considered "theists" for the purposes of the World Religion area. You should not post in any sub forum of that area any longer. Sorry.

I am moving this to General Theistics. As long as it doesn't get too aggressive.

***If you wish to take issue with this notice DO NOT do so in this thread.***
Contact the forum moderator or an administrator in Private Message or email instead. If you feel you must publically complain or whine, please take it to the Psychotherapy Room unless told otherwise.

[FarEastBird]

I know atheists/agnostics who are less sinful than Christians (I know some scum bag Christians, seriously, my own cousin for one - the fear of hell can only go so far).

Ah! Just lurk on TWeb. You will find more sophisticated ones. ;)

Seriously, we sure need to find the answer why this are true cases.

Paul was making the point that Law only creates a desire to break it.

I am not quite sure what you meant. Do you mean that the law makes sin more tempting?

If you tell a kid, dont touch, dont touch, what is he/she want to do as soon as you arent around...

Perhaps we do not differ like the children. No matter how evil or good a thing is, we just do whatever we want to do.

Peace,
FEB

[NormATive]

So nice of you to take action without actually READING the whole post. If you had, you would have noticed that my issue is that I don't believe in MIRACLES, not a disbelief in G-d. I DO believe in G-d, just not miracles as described among some religious groups (Christian and non).

Unorthodox Theology is a perfect fit for my thread. You folks really need to think about your categories before you create them. It would also help if you had some sense of what is being said in the posts, rather than a gut reaction to the title. Words matter. Context matters. The title was designed to attract people to the thread since it is in such an obscure corner of the Forum. Now you want to bury it for good.

You seem to want to marginalize me. Why? Are you afraid my ideas make too much sense?

NORM

[Sparko]

1. Norm, your designation is "DEIST" --- As I said, deists are not theists according to how we handle our forum areas. That alone keeps you out of the World Religion area.
2. Your thread is titled "faith for NON-Believers" - another problem for the world religion area. God is a supernatural being. If you don't believe in miracles because they are supernatural, then how could you believe in God who is supernatural.
3. You want to discuss your topic with Christians and non. Well that also can't happen in Unorthodox religion. It is for unorthodox christians. Not "nons"
4. General Theistics is not a "marginalized area" - it is the forum specifically designed for your type of thread.

This area is open for nontheists and theists to interact on issues of theism and faith. We ask that nontheist participation respect the theistic views of others and not seek to undermine theism in general, or advocate for nontheism. Such posts are more suited for and allowable in Apologetics 301 with very little restriction.

The moderators of this area are given great discretion to determine if a particular thread or comment would more appropriately belong in another forum area.

So as long as you are not seeking to undermine theism in general or advocate nontheism (which you say you are not) then this area is the best area for your thread.

Don't bother to argue with me here, I don't want to derail your thread any further. If you read my notice it specificlaly said not to argue about moderation in this thread. Since you did, I am answering you here, but if that is not satisfactory, please start a psychotherapy room thread on the topic.

Thanks.

[FarEastBird]

Slight correction here. It's not that I "would not like" to believe in the supernatural, I CAN'T believe in the supernatural. No matter how hard I try, I just can't justify belief in miracles. My senses are all intact, and they tell me that dead people stay dead, and history tells me that human sacrifice (atonement?) is a bad thing.

Yes, I understood you. But I was insinuating that there will be consequences in our preferences of belief/hopes that will make us quite vulnerable to sin, much more of trying to have unity amongst us.

I don't seem to have any problems struggling with lust or wanting to sin just because I don't believe in miracles. In fact, I am so "straight," some would say I'm boring. I don't even exceed the speed limit on the highway.

So, if it is your contention that without a belief in the supernatural, we would all be sex-crazed, drug addicted heathens, your theory crumbles in my experience. I know of plenty other (amazing how many "christians" suffer the same affliction as I) naturalists who are decent, law-abiding citizens.

Shalom,

NORM

In my Christian faith/belief, we are all mere animals. And that, though we have an advance brain, our behavior is not totally controlled by what we know and think. As other animals behave peacefully without belief, so do humans.


But as far as of governing ourselves and uniting us in one mind, there is sure much problem to it in that our emotion largely affect our decisions; consciously or unconsciously. Take for instance of atheists, as well as theists, trying to convince us to have a better world, ask yourself: why can’t they just simply write the book and give them for free, instead of selling them?

Peace,
FEB

[NormATive]

Sorry folks, this thread received a bit of a disturbance.

Allow me to redirect.

My understanding of Deism is that a Deist is a person who believes that G-d created the Universe and then let it alone - i.e., does not intervene. It does not mean that we do not believe in G-d, otherwise we would be called Atheists.

It follows, then, that a Deist is a Theist (because of that believing in G-d thing).

Does a Theist need to believe in the supernatural?

Well, since a Deist believes that having a Creator is a perfectly natural thing (because everything has to have a beginning), then G-d is not supernatural, but natural.

I know this is difficult for some Christians to grasp because we've been asked to swallow a lot of supernatural stuff as part of the faith. This is the WHOLE POINT OF MY THREAD.

I am arguing that:

1. G-d is a natural occurence. There is no need to interrupt the natural order of things to explain its presence.
2. Mankind, unable (or unwilling) to see natural reasons for happenstance, turned to supernatural explanations.
3. Christianity is a WORLD VIEW that was taught by Jesus and before him, Hillel. It emphasized egalitarianism, humanism and understanding G-d in a fundamentally different way (do unto others as you would have them do unto you, for example).
4. I believe that relgions are supposed to evolve over time. My own religion, Judaism, has certainly done so since the time of the Shoah. It is entirely possible to be an agnostic and still fellowship with the community. At one point in my journey, I was in that camp, and was lovingly brought back to thesim. Not too many argue with me about G-d's intervening in human affairs, though. For the most part, (at least in the Reformed camp), we believe that we are on our own. The emphasis of the faith is not on seeking appeasement from G-d, but rather, tending to the needs of others.

Finally, I would truly love to hear from folks of different faiths - Buddhism, Islam, Hinduism, Mormonism (although I view Mormonism as a Christian faith), etc., to see how your world view has evolved. Are you to the point where belief in miracles is not as important as HOW YOU BEHAVE as a citizen of the world?

NORM

[NormATive]

I was insinuating that there will be consequences in our preferences of belief/hopes that will make us quite vulnerable to sin, much more of trying to have unity amongst us.

OK, I see your point here. If I willingly choose Atheism because I believe that this "allows" me to commit acts of depravity without regard to consequences, then I am more likely to "behave badly" as compared to a Christian, who believes that fornication outside of marriage is forbidden.

The problem with this theory is that it assumes that Atheists only choose atheism because they want to commit fornication outside of wedlock. People choose atheism for a myriad of reasons, much as folks choose Christianity for a myriad of reasons. I actually had a friend tell me he joined a Pentacostal Church because the "chicks were loose and wound pretty tight" - his exact words!

I think that it is possible for people to choose either Christianity or Atheism for the exact same reasons.

In my Christian faith/belief, we are all mere animals. And that, though we have an advance brain, our behavior is not totally controlled by what we know and think. As other animals behave peacefully without belief, so do humans.

I happen to think animals are some pretty amazing creatures. I never view them as "mere." But, I get your point, and I agree.

But as far as of governing ourselves and uniting us in one mind, there is sure much problem to it in that our emotion largely affect our decisions; consciously or unconsciously. Take for instance of atheists, as well as theists, trying to convince us to have a better world, ask yourself: why can’t they just simply write the book and give them for free, instead of selling them?

I'm not sure of what book you refer, but as far as seeking to live in peace and harmony, isn't it worth at least trying? Why should we dump that responsibility off on G-d?

NORM

[FarEastBird]

OK, I see your point here. If I willingly choose Atheism because I believe that this "allows" me to commit acts of depravity without regard to consequences, then I am more likely to "behave badly" as compared to a Christian, who believes that fornication outside of marriage is forbidden.

The problem with this theory is that it assumes that Atheists only choose atheism because they want to commit fornication outside of wedlock. People choose atheism for a myriad of reasons, much as folks choose Christianity for a myriad of reasons. I actually had a friend tell me he joined a Pentacostal Church because the "chicks were loose and wound pretty tight" - his exact words!

I think that it is possible for people to choose either Christianity or Atheism for the exact same reasons.

I agree with you that people choose either Christianity or Atheism for either good or bad reasons. This alone would spoil your call for unity. But I see bigger problem than that. How do we even agree as to which is good, or bad? Sure it is easy to imagine that we can agree on a mutual goal. But how is it attained? Perhaps we can ignore “some” of our personal belief/s indeed. But I submit that there is much to just holding these personal beliefs that even when we work objectively towards good, we come up unto different perspectives, and also different approaches. I, for instance, don’t view Atheism as good. I do not mean that atheists are bad people, or intending to be bad; and that for sure there are things that I can compromise with atheists. Atheism to me is not a good worldview and its approaches will lead us to chaos.

I happen to think animals are some pretty amazing creatures. I never view them as "mere." But, I get your point, and I agree.

Excellent! Well, I hope you won’t mind me convincing you in this post about my belief, which is close to deism, but rather more perfectly apt for us who have some similarities of beliefs. Of course, I will respect your authority if you stop me; as it is your own this thread. I will be very brief.

Since you believe that we are animals, I hope that you will also leave your belief that we can make ourselves responsible. Seeing you claim yourself rational, you can leave the thought that we have “free will.” And this would result that we are creatures void of virtue. And for this reason God is the ones who elect whom will he make into his image. You cannot change a person to disbelieve in Trinitarianism, we can be God’s tool for their conversion, but it is totally God’s work that even our action is being guided by God. The following verses shows our nature lacking virtues:

Eccl 3:18-20
18 I said in my heart concerning the estate of the sons of men, that God might manifest them, and that they might see that they themselves are beasts. 19 For that which befalls the sons of men befalls beasts; even one thing befalls them: as the one dies, so dies the other; yes, they have all one breath; so that a man has no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity. 20 All go to one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.


Isa 40:6-8
6 The voice said, Cry. And he said, What shall I cry? All flesh is grass, and all the goodliness thereof is as the flower of the field: 7 The grass wither, the flower fades: because the spirit of the LORD blows on it: surely the people is grass. 8 The grass wither, the flower fades: but the word of our God shall stand for ever.

Isa 64:6
6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

1Peter 1:24
24 For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass wither, and the flower thereof falls away:

Rom 7:18
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwells no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

The above verses only speaks of our nature. But more than that, God is really responsible of who will be part of eternal life. That is the reason why our salvation is called because of His “mercy,” and it is “not of our works.” Rather, that God, even before the foundation of the World, had already planned all things according to His plans on Jesus Christ.

I'm not sure of what book you refer, but as far as seeking to live in peace and harmony, isn't it worth at least trying? Why should we dump that responsibility off on G-d?

NORM

Sorry I was not able to reread my post and see my error. I was speaking of any books they authored and are selling to promote their belief/worldview. What I am meaning you to see is that even these very people who claim to know better cannot just simply offer what they know as better for free. We are too entangled to our fleshly nature that we cannot direct ourselves to just do good for all humanity, without being rewarded.

Surely, I am trying to live in peace and harmony. But even my mind itself bothers me if I'll ignore to preach what I know is better, if not the best. But I had attained more peace knowing that there is a God who is in control of every little things of this world. I look forward to fulfill His promises.

Peace,
Nilo