Romans 5:18.

**Bernie** · January 18th 2011, 09:08 AM

Originally posted by RBerman

You're simply saying that people who disagree with you about the Bible intend to "modify" the Bible. Not very charitable. Why can't it just be an honest disagreement about what God means?

Not at all, what I'm saying is that you merely mimic orthodoxy by imposing doctrine on and modifying Paul's clear meaning every time he alludes to the salvation of all. It might be different if it could not be shown in other of Paul's writings that there is a clear theme of overarching universalism beyond his exclusivist teaching....but of course, the temporal/eternal dualism (some saved in time, all in eternity) lies throughout his writings and is unmistakably "corrected" by popular notions of eternal torment.

And btw, judging from your responses in some of our past exchanges, I hardly think your judgment of charity leads the pack, RB...

Originally posted by RBerman

The point of "all Israel will be saved" is that the true and final Israel is composed of Jews and Gentiles. It doesn't mean "all Jews and all Gentiles will be saved." That should be clear from Romans 9-10, which discuss that not all are saved, and that faith is essential to be saved, and that not all men have faith, because God has not ordained it to be so.

Same old stuff, modifying Paul to fit your doctrine...this is not what he teaches, it's what you impose on his writings. I've pointed out the way to interpret Paul which relieves tension and resistance, but you'll have none of it. What's new under the sun? You ET'ers never tell me why my view doesn't work, only what you believe. Same old.

I'll post a new challenge here soon showing how the salvation of all passes truth tests where both eternal tormentism and annihilationism fail. Are you up to the challenge of judging a view by acceptable tests of truth rather than by allowing your doctrine to erroneously stand as truth itself? Looking forward to further debate with you RB.

**mickiel** · January 18th 2011, 11:46 AM

Originally posted by RBerman

It is because Christians have been trained, properly, to read Scripture in context. .

I am moving closer and closer to the view that no christians in our age have been trained properly.

Now wouldnot that be quite something if it were true?

Peace.

**RBerman** · January 18th 2011, 07:21 PM

Originally posted by mickiel

I am moving closer and closer to the view that no christians in our age have been trained properly. Now wouldnot that be quite something if it were true?

Well, at any given point in history you'd expect well-trained people to be rather outnumbered by untrained people, regardless of the field in question. Certainly the average American (Christian or not) is less Biblically literate than 100 years ago.

**RBerman** · January 18th 2011, 07:25 PM

Originally posted by Bernie

Not at all, what I'm saying is that you merely mimic orthodoxy by imposing doctrine on and modifying Paul's clear meaning every time he alludes to the salvation of all. It might be different if it could not be shown in other of Paul's writings that there is a clear theme of overarching universalism beyond his exclusivist teaching....but of course, the temporal/eternal dualism (some saved in time, all in eternity) lies throughout his writings and is unmistakably "corrected" by popular notions of eternal torment.

I disagree, as have the overwhelming majority of Christians at any point in history.

And btw, judging from your responses in some of our past exchanges, I hardly think your judgment of charity leads the pack, RB...

I aim for charity, but I admit that sometimes I miss. Historically, my beef with you has been not just that we disagree theologically, but that you characterize yourself as a Christian fundamentalist while talking mainly about doctrines inimical to Christian fundamentalists of the past and present.

I'll post a new challenge here soon showing how the salvation of all passes truth tests where both eternal tormentism and annihilationism fail. Are you up to the challenge of judging a view by acceptable tests of truth rather than by allowing your doctrine to erroneously stand as truth itself? Looking forward to further debate with you RB.

I'll await your new challenge. Be well.

**Bernie** · January 18th 2011, 10:43 PM

I disagree, as have the overwhelming majority of Christians at any point in history.

Does that give you comfort and courage that you stand in the truth? Have you forgotten that every prophet God brought forth to His people to speak on His behalf were persecuted and disbelieved? Perhaps in your book Christians are more spiritual, more in tune with truth than our predecessors? Christians are the exclusive sons and daughters of God, right? So thought the Israelites, too.

Originally posted by RBerman

I aim for charity, but I admit that sometimes I miss. Historically, my beef with you has been not just that we disagree theologically, but that you characterize yourself as a Christian fundamentalist while talking mainly about doctrines inimical to Christian fundamentalists of the past and present.

And I still find this amusing. I challenged you many times to show me how my beliefs were inimical to the original fundamentals of the faith. I've been met only with silence. Perhaps you'd stand yourself in good stead to look inward at why this bothers you RB, especially in light of the fact that you've never been able to mount a rational case against me.

In the grand scheme of things, whether one is a fundamentalist or not is unimportant.

Originally posted by RBerman

I'll await your new challenge. Be well.

Be well yourself. (There, see, we can be gracious to one another if we just try....)

**RBerman** · January 19th 2011, 11:06 AM

Originally posted by Bernie

Does that give you comfort and courage that you stand in the truth? Have you forgotten that every prophet God brought forth to His people to speak on His behalf were persecuted and disbelieved? Perhaps in your book Christians are more spiritual, more in tune with truth than our predecessors? Christians are the exclusive sons and daughters of God, right? So thought the Israelites, too.

The truth is not determined by majority vote. However, if I knew that most Christians disagreed with me on some issue, I would hesitate to ascribe their views to malice or deceit or a desire to twist the Scriptures.

And I still find this amusing. I challenged you many times to show me how my beliefs were inimical to the original fundamentals of the faith. I've been met only with silence. Perhaps you'd stand yourself in good stead to look inward at why this bothers you RB, especially in light of the fact that you've never been able to mount a rational case against me.

I showed that universalism was inimical to the beliefs of the fundamentalists. You chose to narrow the field of inquiry to a smaller subset of doctrines which you held in common with the fundamentalists, and then declared yourself absolved.

In the grand scheme of things, whether one is a fundamentalist or not is unimportant.

The fundamentals included important Christian doctrines about the person and work of Christ, so I must disagree.

Be well yourself. (There, see, we can be gracious to one another if we just try....)

It must be a full moon. ;)

**mickiel** · January 19th 2011, 03:33 PM

Originally posted by RBerman

Well, at any given point in history you'd expect well-trained people to be rather outnumbered by untrained people, regardless of the field in question. Certainly the average American (Christian or not) is less Biblically literate than 100 years ago.

Well I agree with you, although the bible remains the most read book in the world, the understanding of it simply does not compete with its reading. It remains a mystery at most, and I think if God wanted it understood by all, he would have gave that to all; he didnot. The question then is why? I think he confused all, because he intends to save all. Romans 11:32;" For God has shut up ALL in disobedience that he might show mercy to ALL." There exist no "Average to Gods mercy", its a numerical coverage of everyone. If God is to show mercy to all, that convinces me that all will be saved.

On the other hand, if we were talking about human mercy, well then I certainly couldnot believe that we all would make it.

Peace.

**RBerman** · January 19th 2011, 04:37 PM

Originally posted by mickiel

Well I agree with you, although the bible remains the most read book in the world, the understanding of it simply does not compete with its reading. It remains a mystery at most, and I think if God wanted it understood by all, he would have gave that to all; he didnot. The question then is why? I think he confused all, because he intends to save all. Romans 11:32;" For God has shut up ALL in disobedience that he might show mercy to ALL." There exist no "Average to Gods mercy", its a numerical coverage of everyone. If God is to show mercy to all, that convinces me that all will be saved. On the other hand, if we were talking about human mercy, well then I certainly couldnot believe that we all would make it.

Christians all affirm that with regard to power, God could save all men. And with regard to justice, no men deserve to be saved. And with regard to mercy, God tells us that he will save some men. Does he tell us that he will save all men? If he said such a thing, that would be great by me. Shall not the judge of the world do rightly? But I don't think he does say such a thing. Romans 11, for instance, is about the two groups from which the elect are drawn: Jews and Gentiles. The end of the chapter warns Gentiles not to be smug, because God saves Jews too. The "all" in verse 32 encompasses the two groups God is saving: elect Jews, and elect Gentiles. The thrust of the passage is not universal salvation, as evident from the discussion in Romans 10 about how only those who call upon the Lord are saved:

Romans 10:12-16

There is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.” (Joel 2:32) How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? And how can anyone preach unless they are sent? As it is written: “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!” (Isaiah 52:7) But not all the Israelites accepted the good news.

**mickiel** · January 20th 2011, 12:57 PM

Originally posted by RBerman

Christians all affirm that with regard to power, God could save all men. And with regard to justice, no men deserve to be saved. And with regard to mercy, God tells us that he will save some men. Does he tell us that he will save all men? If he said such a thing, that would be great by me. Shall not the judge of the world do rightly? But I don't think he does say such a thing. Romans 11, for instance, is about the two groups from which the elect are drawn: Jews and Gentiles. The end of the chapter warns Gentiles not to be smug, because God saves Jews too. The "all" in verse 32 encompasses the two groups God is saving: elect Jews, and elect Gentiles. The thrust of the passage is not universal salvation, as evident from the discussion in Romans 10 about how only those who call upon the Lord are saved:

Romans 10:12-16

There is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.” (Joel 2:32) How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? And how can anyone preach unless they are sent? As it is written: “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!” (Isaiah 52:7) But not all the Israelites accepted the good news.

I am curious, why do you think God is not capable of saving all humans?

Peace.

**RBerman** · January 20th 2011, 02:54 PM

Originally posted by mickiel

I am curious, why do you think God is not capable of saving all humans?

Did you read the post you quoted? It opens with, "Christians all affirm that with regard to power, God could save all men."

**jo7241974** · January 24th 2011, 06:58 PM

Originally posted by mickiel

So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to ALL men, even so through one act of Righteousness there resulted Justification of LIFE to ALL Men!" It is strange how every christian can see, understand and agree with the condemnation of All humans in this verse, but then something weird happens to their mind, belief and eyes when reading the second part of this verse. It states very clearly that through Christ death sacrifice, now ALL humans are Justified! Even sinners and unbelievers are Justified to Live forever with God. Thats how " Cleansing and effective Jesus death was."

But why is it that many christians refuse to see unbelievers " Bathing in this Cleasing?" What keeps their minds from seeing the Salvation of All? Why is this eye closing thing in their hearts?

They can see us ALL being condemned through Adams sin-- see it just as plain as day! And ACCEPT that. Why can't they accept the second part of this verse as being just as dogmatic as the first part?

I tell you why. Really its not fair to condemn millions of humans just because of one mans sin. And God knows that. Adams sin was a " Set up" for the REASON of Christ comming to pay for our sins. But christians view it as " Unfair for unbelievers to receive the Free Gift of Salvation." They are the brother of the Prodical Son. He thought it was unfair for his Father to forgive and accept his wayward Son back, and throw a feast for him. He really wanted his Father to reject his sinful brother, he was highly disturbed with the whole situation of unmerited forgiveness. And this is WHY many christians cannot discern these type of biblical verses that show the Salvation of All, because its " Not Fair to them", after all, they are faithful and remained with their Father, they and they alone should be rewarded, why should God forgive filthy unbelieving God rejecting sinners?

Adam was " Set up in the Garden of Eden to fail." To prepare the reason for Christ comming. Satan didNOT " Sneak" into the garden, slither past God and the Angels unnoticed, and just get to the heavily " Outclassed and overpowered young couple." He was let in by God, expected to be there, and God knew there was absolutely no way that the couple could defeat satan, UNLESS he intervened-- He didNOT intervene! He let them stand on their own, which is a type of curse from God, letting humans handle satan on their own.

Satan didNOT even have to " Lie to the couple", show me where satan lied to them in the garden of Eden. He didnot lie to Adam and Eve, he didnot have to, he told them the truth. And he has been using the truth to deceive Gods children ever since.

Peace.

Hi Mikiel,

I like your fresh approach to this! While I agree in your conclusion that all can be justified, I think it is a little more complicated and not so easily discerned on HOW all of this takes place.

Also, I would offer that satan did tell a partial lie....but I believe his power lies in his prowess to take truth and twist it so that people will accept his influences. Thus people are influenced into twisting the true meaning of scripture. I believe that the part of what he told Eve was a lie is in that he told her she would NOT die. As we can see, part of the punishment for eating the forbidden fruit was that they would now suffer physical death - they became mortal. Now, we could also consider that they suffered a type of "spiritual" death as well, because once they were pushed out of the Garden of Eden, they experienced a spiritual separation from God. However, through faith, we can reconnect spiritually with God while we are in the flesh. We also know that ultimately, one of the things which Jesus accomplished in addition to providing an Atonement for our sins, He also overcame physical death. Thus we are immortal once more, even though we must first suffer a physical death (even for those for whom this takes place within the "twinkling of an eye").

I agree that Adam and Eve were "set up" (to use your vernacular). They had been given two rules to obey. One was to not eat from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. The other was to multiply and replenish the earth. However, in their state of innocence before eating the forbidden fruit, I don't think they had the knowledge of how to multiply and replenish the earth. Yet it was more important for God's purposes that they DID muliply in order for all of His spirit children to be able to be born into a physical body so that they could begin this leg of their eternal journey.

I think a big part of what mankind has twisted is the methods and the path which God has created in order for us to return to Him. For instance, they look at "hell" as a permanent condition which represents to them eternal damnation. They think that if a person has not had the chance to hear the Gospel Message, or to have had the chance to accept Jesus while they are in the flesh, that their soul is eternally damned. I think they make errors in so much of the interpretation of the Bible, that they have become like the Pharisees had: "teaching for doctrine the commandments of men". And they call their teachings "orthodox"; i.e., the "correct" teachings.

Inasmuch as I think they hold to "incorrect" doctrine, I still believe they are saved. I also believe that they will be surprised at how many they find in Heaven along with them. I think there will be very few, if any, who will ultimately wind up spending their eternity damned; i.e., whoever becomes a Son of Perdition.

You might be interested in following a thread which takes some of these ideas into consideration which is also on this forum, entitled "Can we still get into Heaven if we have un-forgiven sin(s)?". I would welcome your comments.

Best regards,

jo

**jo7241974** · January 24th 2011, 07:02 PM

Originally posted by mickiel

Well yes, there are others. Satan has implanted false doctrines in the church that were designed to " Implode within the church", like a Trojan Horse of deception. He magnifys damnation over Salvation, and magnifys scriptures that seem to doom humans over scriptures that will save humans. Romans 5:18 is obviously one of those scriptures that is abundant with grace, and must be ignored by those who are not abundant with Grace.

As the death toll of hell is being preached and taught by its pushers, its growth in acceptance has been a Trojan Horse success of satan. Satan is teaching that there is no Justification for all of mankind, and he is using Christians to do it! Incredible! The bible says the direct oppisite in Rom. 5:18, and yet satan still has the power to suppress this verse and many like it, AND, to plant hell verse throughout the bible itself!

Peace.

Satan has been very clever to not only destroy the church from within; but to outsiders who see what is going on, they have decided they want no part in it.

sigh......

jo

**jo7241974** · January 24th 2011, 07:09 PM

Gracepsal21:4;3153417]
I am neither an intellect nor well educated in the bible...please forgive. I am just a gal who loves God, desperately seeking the truth in a world of misinterpretations...
Having been raised a JW. (Which I no longer am) I can say that when one is preached to on a daily bases for years, brain washing is the “weird thing” that happens. Also mixed in with some bad bible translating leading to This brain washing happens also to many other Christian organizations, misinterpretations of such words as hell, destruction, ever lasting… Resulting in the misinterpretation of subjects such a “salvation to all” ... I was brain washed for many years into believing that only the JW's or those that believed the Watchtower and Tract Society were the only ones to have absolution from sin...of course some “works” were thrown into the bargain:)

I left that religion because I could not stomach the idea that God was going to “annihilate” wonderful folks who did not believe as I did. Many years later I became a Christian and now I am thrown into another distasteful idea, the horrible belief of hell...torture and torment forever in a lake of fire! I do not agree with either of these teachings...it goes against my sweet nature:)
My protesting to family, friend, and clergy almost always fails. Usually bible discussions falls upon dead ears, folks just don’t want to rock the church boat. Many church goers, say that “God will present Him self to the entire world of humanity and they will have a choice to except or reject Jesus, if they reject Him…too bad, their loss!!! That would include my sweet and dedicated parents who are practicing JW’s. They are brain washed into believing, that they are the only ones who have the scriptures right... the only true organization on earth for the truth of God. (Including their belief in disassociation towards me, leaving me with out family for 18 years)
As a Christian I will bring my questions and concerns to the clergy, they will say to me some thing similar... "Jesus spoke of hell more than he did of salvation so there must be those who go to it" and “Narrow is the road that leads to life and…” I asked one pastor to look into the Septuagint...he didn’t even know what that was???
As far as speaking to my fellow Christians, it seems to me… most people just want to be lead. Study and research out of the box is too hard and nerve rattling for them, and takes up a lot of time and emotional effort to do so, (speaking from experience).
I do not posses a knowledge of Greek nor Hebrew, I find if one does not have this type of education, dialogue with others especially the clergy, can be difficult if not impossible. People are so fixed to what they have been taught and fear that they them selves will fall under the title of “unsaved” if they research too much and God forbid…fall away from their so-called truths...It happens all the time to honest God loving folks...It happened to me, first I fell away from the belief system of the JW's and, now I question the Christian interpretations.
My sensitivity screams out, that some thing is a miff! ...There is some thing not right about the Christian understanding of salvation to only those that believe!
As for Romans 5:18- I have never “seen” the second part of it until now! Neither pastor nor any man of God has ever gotten on the pulpit in my years of search and pointed it out to me personally nor to the congregation in sit in! Why is that?
I think streamline thinking keeps Christian in a closed mind state. Most don’t even question, they just go to church and except all that’s preached, with out asking if this could be interpreted incorrectly. Once pastor’s, elders, ministers, the clergy stand up and say that salvation is really for ALL, as said in Romans 5:18 and let go of teachings such as a fiery damnation to the unsaved, the church unfortunately will remain in their brain washed state, and not see the true wonderment of salvation is for all mankind...and gal mind too:)
Mickiel, in an effort to find biblical answers on certain subjects as mentioned above. Yesterday I came across (quite by accident, for at the time I was not a member of this site) a post you left in February 2004 "Thoughts on the Eternity of Hell" I went through he thread's (?) ...yours was the last comment... After I read it, I simply cried...Yes, yes; someone spoke my heart (so eloquently I might add)… This is the way God must of intended salvation… this is Gods truly amazing grace, salvation to all sinners...God is truly GREAT!
Now, if I can only find more scriptural back up. Until then, I will keep studying and researching to find the truth in the Word… To another commenter above (sorry, forgot name) said the Unitarian Universalism religion is the only one who teaches salvation to all...is this true?
JGrace
New to this...hope my post does not come up twice...

What a sweet spirit you are! I went through some of the same struggles you are now having with orthodox Christianity, as I was a raised a Lutheran. What the Bible taught me, and what I knew about the attributes of God, is NOT what they were teaching me.

Best regards,

jo

**jo7241974** · January 24th 2011, 07:23 PM

Originally posted by mickiel

I am moving closer and closer to the view that no christians in our age have been trained properly.

Now wouldnot that be quite something if it were true?

Peace.

Indeed! Why does man think that man needs to train us about God? I thought that is what the purpose of the Holy Spirit is for? The Holy Spirit not only witnesses of Christ, He guides and directs us not only in changing us to become Christlike, but also in leading us to all Truth. And not all Truth had been taught, even by Christ to His Apostles! Let the leading continue!! And NOT by man!!

jo

**jo7241974** · January 24th 2011, 07:26 PM

Originally posted by RBerman

Well, at any given point in history you'd expect well-trained people to be rather outnumbered by untrained people, regardless of the field in question. Certainly the average American (Christian or not) is less Biblically literate than 100 years ago.

Is the Bible required for someone to be saved?

jo