Bill Nye The Idiot Guy

[Sparko]

Um, so? That is obviously true. Gender, which I understand to mean essentially "behavioral patterns" like "wears dresses, has long hair, wears makeup and jewelry" etc have always been social constructs. Most societies in human history have had 3-5 genders, and the Europe of the last millennium was kind of the odd society out for having only two genders that didn't allow people any freedom of gender choice and tied them tightly to biological sex. To get the difference clear in your mind: Biological sex - the genitalia that is between your legs - is what it is and isn't a 'choice' (though modern medical science could help you change it if you wanted I guess), whereas questions of how you behave - e.g. if you choose to wear dresses or not, are obviously a choice, and that is "gender". How you behave need have nothing to do with your biological sex. A person could potentially go their whole life behaving like a man without anyone realizing they were actually a woman. I have read claims that one Pope in the early middle ages was a woman who pretended to be a man.

Since gender is a social construct and behavioral patterns, it is obviously up to society to create any set of behavioral patterns it likes, or for individuals to forge new ones.

Biological sex isn't binary because of chromosomal anomalies. So there is non-binaryness at both the genetic and hormonal levels at which 'biological sex' operates, as well and the cultural level at which gender constructs operate.

Biological sex is a thing that is based on chromosomes and hormones, and it is scientifically measurable. It's a measure of things like the physical anatomy of a person and what parts they have.

Gender roles are social behavioral patterns that govern things like what a person wears and what jobs they perform. Obviously a person's feelings determine which of the available social behavioral patterns that society offers that they will follow. Or they can choose to trail-blaze their own path. For example, in the 20th century in the West, women increasingly rejected the gender role of being homemakers and instead opted for full time work in jobs previously understood to be 'male' roles.

except gender isn't deciding to wear a dress or pants. or playing with barbie dolls or GI Joe. Wearing a dress doesn't make you a woman, no matter how much you might want it to. If that were the case then do you magically turn into a man when you get undressed?

[Sparko]

since when did sex and gender mean two different things? they have until recently been basically synonyms for each other as nouns, and basically the only difference is that "sex" can refer to the physical act of copulation where you would not use "gender" and in linguistics gender can refer to whether words are considered male, female, or neuter.

This is just one more example of liberal interference.

[TheLurch]

since when did sex and gender mean two different things? they have until recently been basically synonyms for each other as nouns, and basically the only difference is that "sex" can refer to the physical act of copulation where you would not use "gender" and in linguistics gender can refer to whether words are considered male, female, or neuter.

This is just one more example of liberal interference.

There's lots of differences between how words are used in common conversation and what they mean technically (see, for example, "theory"). And it generally has nothing to do with liberals.

[Sparko]

There's lots of differences between how words are used in common conversation and what they mean technically (see, for example, "theory"). And it generally has nothing to do with liberals.

except they didn't use to mean different things 'technically.'

[TheLurch]

except they didn't use to mean different things 'technically.'

What do you base that on?

Edited to add: etymology suggests that the common usage of gender has changed meanings 3 or 4 times over its history in European languages, in part due to changes in how the term "sex" was used. Its technical use appears to date to the 1950s.

[Starlight]

since when did sex and gender mean two different things?

Since before I was born at any rate. I've never known any meanings other than biological sex meaning what your physical body is, and gender meaning what patterns of behavior you follow.

It would be understandable though if Christian Europe of the last millenium didn't make a distinction between sex and gender because they, unusually in human history and societies, had only 2 social gender roles that were tied tightly to biological sex. But obviously in cultures that have more that 2 genders (here is a National Geographic clip on the Bugis culture in Indonesia which has successfully retained its historical 5-gender system despite Islamic colonization), there is a need for a word that refers to gender that is different to the word for biological sex (since there are only two sexes, but 5 genders). In such societies, which seem to have been generally predominant in human history, a person of a given biological sex has the freedom of choice among 2-3 gender roles available to them based on their biological sex (e.g. a person with female genitalia among the Bugis can choose to follow the standard 'woman' gender role that involves dressing as a woman, doing "woman's work", marrying a 'man' etc; or they can choose to become a 'pseudo-man' (the literal translation of the Bugis name for the gender) where they dress as a man, do "man's work", marry a 'woman' etc; or they can choose to become the tribal shaman which involves representing all genders, and dressing and acting in a way that represents that.).

Likewise in North America, when European colonization began, most natives tribes were observed to have 4 gender roles:

Not all tribes/nations have rigid gender roles, but, among those that do, the most usual spectrum that has been documented is that of four genders: feminine woman, masculine woman, feminine man, masculine man.

This is just one more example of liberal interference.

Cos liberals went back in time and caused tribal cultures to have more than 2 gender roles.

"I have submitted substantial evidence that those Indian men who, both here and farther inland, are observed in the dress, clothing and character of women - there being two or three such in each village - pass as sodomites by profession.... They are called joyas, and are held in great esteem." - Don Pedro Fages, 1770, exploring California

“certayne Chibadi, which are Men attyred like Women, and behave themselves womanly, ashamed to be called men; are also married to men, and esteeme that unnatural damnation an honor” - Purchas, 1625, reporting explorations of Africa.

[Tassman]

Except it's not more complicated. Any deviation from that norm is a disorder, not another equally valid sexuality like Nye and the SJW squad claim.

"lesbian, gay and bisexual orientations are not disorders. Research has found no inherent association between any of these sexual orientations and psychopathology. Both heterosexual behavior and homosexual behavior are normal aspects of human sexuality. Both have been documented in many different cultures and historical eras. Despite the persistence of stereotypes that portray lesbian, gay and bisexual people as disturbed, several decades of research and clinical experience have led all mainstream medical and mental health organizations in this country to conclude that these orientations represent normal forms of human experience. Lesbian, gay and bisexual relationships are normal forms of human bonding. Therefore, these mainstream organizations long ago abandoned classifications of homosexuality as a mental disorder.

http://www.apa.org/topics/lgbt/orientation.aspx

This is the view of virtually every psychiatric association and related discipline worldwide. If your holy book says otherwise, it is wrong.

[Sparko]

so I watched the series on netflix. some of the shows are not as politically charged as the gender one. there was one on AI for instance. but it was still horrible. It is supposed to be a science show for adults, but Nye still talks to the audience in a condescending way, like he is talking to 10 year olds and the "Science" is very superficial (read: nonexistant, and just references it in a pop culture way) - he talked about killer robots and had one scientist on who basically complained because AI agents cant recognize his accent. He also had some stupid skits like psychoanalyzing a coffee pot with AI that wanted to kill all humans.

[NorrinRadd]

since when did sex and gender mean two different things? they have until recently been basically synonyms for each other as nouns, and basically the only difference is that "sex" can refer to the physical act of copulation where you would not use "gender" and in linguistics gender can refer to whether words are considered male, female, or neuter.

This is just one more example of liberal interference.

No, it's an example of the fluidity and imprecision of language.

In my formative years, "gender" was a grammatical term referring to, e.g., "him" vs. "her," "his" vs. "hers," etc., whereas "sex" was a biological term.

[Crackerjack]

"lesbian, gay and bisexual orientations are not disorders. Research has found no inherent association between any of these sexual orientations and psychopathology. Both heterosexual behavior and homosexual behavior are normal aspects of human sexuality. Both have been documented in many different cultures and historical eras. Despite the persistence of stereotypes that portray lesbian, gay and bisexual people as disturbed, several decades of research and clinical experience have led all mainstream medical and mental health organizations in this country to conclude that these orientations represent normal forms of human experience. Lesbian, gay and bisexual relationships are normal forms of human bonding. Therefore, these mainstream organizations long ago abandoned classifications of homosexuality as a mental disorder.

http://www.apa.org/topics/lgbt/orientation.aspx

This is the view of virtually every psychiatric association and related discipline worldwide. If your holy book says otherwise, it is wrong.

Sorry, but nowhere in the quoted text can I find the explanation why homosexuality is normal except "We say so!". Yes, homosexuals aren't mentally ill, but from this it doesn't follow that homosexuality is normal. Psychopathology isn't the only kind of pathology. The latest research suggests that homosexuality is a developmental disorder caused by different levels of testosterone during the prenatal stage of human development. Male homosexuals have feminized brains, and female homosexuals have masculine brains, though the latter is just a reasonable speculation because lesbians aren't so much studied as gays.

[HMS_Beagle]

Sorry, but nowhere in the quoted text can I find the explanation why homosexuality is normal except "We say so!". Yes, homosexuals aren't mentally ill, but from this it doesn't follow that homosexuality is normal. Psychopathology isn't the only kind of pathology. The latest research suggests that homosexuality is a developmental disorder caused by different levels of testosterone during the prenatal stage of human development. Male homosexuals have feminized brains, and female homosexuals have masculine brains, though the latter is just a reasonable speculation because lesbians aren't so much studied as gays.

What is your definition of "normal"? When scientists use the term regarding sexual orientation the term means one of the naturally occurring orientation variations observed to appear in humans. Most people in the world have brown eyes but blue eyes and hazel eyes are also considered normal too. Normal doesn't have to mean majority.

[Crackerjack]

What is your definition of "normal"? When scientists use the term regarding sexual orientation the term means one of the naturally occurring orientation variations observed to appear in humans. Most people in the world have brown eyes but blue eyes and hazel eyes are also considered normal too. Normal doesn't have to mean majority.

By normal I mean anything what doesn't interfere with the function. The various eye colors are normal because they don't undermine the function of the eye, which is to provide visual data. Homosexual orientation isn't normal because it undermines the function of sexuality, which is reproduction. Put differently, homosexuality negatively affects the reproductive fitness of an organism; thus it's abnormal.

[Starlight]

Put differently, homosexuality negatively affects the reproductive fitness of an organism; thus it's abnormal.

Is celibacy 'abnormal' too in a bad sense? That would seem a strange position for a christian to take. Since plenty of LGBT people have children, and genetic technology is on the verge of allowing two people of the same biological sex to have children together, your criteria seems irrelevant.

[Jedidiah]

Sorry, but nowhere in the quoted text can I find the explanation why homosexuality is normal except "We say so!". Yes, homosexuals aren't mentally ill, but from this it doesn't follow that homosexuality is normal. Psychopathology isn't the only kind of pathology. The latest research suggests that homosexuality is a developmental disorder caused by different levels of testosterone during the prenatal stage of human development. Male homosexuals have feminized brains, and female homosexuals have masculine brains, though the latter is just a reasonable speculation because lesbians aren't so much studied as gays.

Except in another thread we discovered that there is no such thing as masculine brains and feminine brains. We are clearly looking at pathology here, psycho pathology or not.

[Tassman]

Sorry, but nowhere in the quoted text can I find the explanation why homosexuality is normal except "We say so!". Yes, homosexuals aren't mentally ill, but from this it doesn't follow that homosexuality is normal. Psychopathology isn't the only kind of pathology. The latest research suggests that homosexuality is a developmental disorder caused by different levels of testosterone during the prenatal stage of human development. Male homosexuals have feminized brains, and female homosexuals have masculine brains, though the latter is just a reasonable speculation because lesbians aren't so much studied as gays.

'Normal' is defined as: “1. conforming to the standard or the common type.” So homosexuality is clearly not the "common type". But it can be described as a minority variant of normal sexuality. And the Abrahamic religions have got it wrong in calling it a sin. “Research over several decades has demonstrated that sexual orientation ranges along a continuum, from exclusive attraction to the other sex to exclusive attraction to the same sex” – APA.

Hence a “sexually normal” person will be anywhere along this spectrum.