Announcement

Collapse

Natural Science 301 Guidelines

This is an open forum area for all members for discussions on all issues of science and origins. This area will and does get volatile at times, but we ask that it be kept to a dull roar, and moderators will intervene to keep the peace if necessary. This means obvious trolling and flaming that becomes a problem will be dealt with, and you might find yourself in the doghouse.

As usual, Tweb rules apply. If you haven't read them now would be a good time.

Forum Rules: Here
See more
See less

Bill Nye The Idiot Guy

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
    which is why we were talking hypotheticals.
    There are no hypothetical scenarios whereby science investigates the verification of miracles. This is why I'm not playing your game.

    YOU made the claim that you would believe scientifically verifiable evidence. So I asked you like what? and as we have seen you said nothing would convince you and now you claim there can be no scientific way to verify the supernatural. making your initial claim a lie.
    Again: There is no scientifically verified knowledge of the supernatural having the ability to act in the natural world...or that it even exists. To believe that it does exist and can affect the natural laws and constants of the universe is an act of faith, not verified knowledge. This applies equally to God doing miracles and and the Blue Fairy granting your wishes, which you said would be proof of her existence.

    but I say that IF God were to do a miracle today like bringing a long dead person back to life, it could be scientifically verifiable. Yet you would still not believe would you?
    "But Abraham said, 'If they won't listen to Moses and the prophets, they won't listen even if someone rises from the dead.'" You mimic Luke 16 very well.

    science make no such assumption. It seeks the truth whatever it is.
    No. The scientific method is grounded in methodological naturalism, which limits scientific research to the study of natural causes. Any attempts to define causal relationships with the supernatural result in 'god of the gaps' type arguments. Hence, science assumes that all causes are empirical and naturalistic; which means they can be measured, quantified and studied methodically.
    “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Tassman View Post
      Why would one "act in faith” in response to anything in which one does not believe?
      The point is that at some point you'll know (or have known) it is God calling you, and it is at that point you have a responsibility to respond in Faith. You've heard the Gospel a lot Tassman. But I have no idea what God has done spiritually as you've heard it. You would act because you would know God is calling you. And you would know it in a way that has nothing to do with science. And you'd either decide this is idiotic and walk away, or perhaps you'll realize there is something to this after all. I hope the latter. To know God is calling you is not a matter of science, or even objective thought. It is something you just know.


      Jim
      My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

      If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

      This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

      Comment


      • Originally posted by JimL View Post
        So, you don't believe that in order to be saved, one has to believe in the existence of god/Jesus?
        I believe what the Bible says about it JimL. And I think you know what that is. So how does that square with my statement "I don't believe God punishes people for what they could not know/ or did not know". I'm not talking about scientific knowledge JimL. I'm talking about the knowledge that goes deep inside ones soul and can't be defined scientifically. So maybe you can't find enough evidence to convince you Jesus was a real person. Did you know the right thing to do but choose not to do it? Did that choice hurt someone horribly? Did you ever go and try to make it right? These are things we know, things that we will have to account for before God. And These are the kind of things that will condemn us before Him.

        But there are two primary aspects of this that usually come up in a discussion like this. The first is what can you know. The second usually goes something like 'but what about the fellow who never heard of Christ". The answer to the first part is that if you haven't already, at some point when you hear the Gospel for the thousandth time and you'll realize God is calling you and that you need to respond. It will go straight to your heart and all the objections you've raised here will at least for a moment become nothing compared to the light shining on you at that moment.

        The second part is really in God's hands. God tells us His judgement is fair and Just. There are scriptures which speak of us being held accountable based on the light we've been given. And there is a scripture that promises that all those whom God foreknew [would follow Christ] he predestined to become conformed to the image of Christ.

        So somehow, someway, God has this all worked out. But it's really not my place in the universe to necessarily figure out how it all works out. What I do know is that for any that know in their heart that if they stood before God they would be worthy of judgement, there is a Savior that if they will place their faith and trust in Him, He will replace their lives at the judgement with His own.



        Jim
        Last edited by oxmixmudd; 07-23-2017, 11:33 PM.
        My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

        If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

        This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

        Comment


        • Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
          This is likely my last post with you in this conversation. It's been overall a good back and forth, but it's quickly moving towards "yes it is", "no it's not", and I'm not a new testament scholar and while I enjoy debates that force me to learn, at some point I have to just admit we are at the limit of what I'm qualified - even marginally - to debate.
          OK we’ll leave it at that. Thanks for the discussion. I’ve enjoyed it.

          Not exactly. It searches for a natural explanation for natural events. But it can't answer if an event for which no natural explanation is found is or is not miraculous. There is a subtle but important difference. And that difference is the difference between 'is not' and 'might not be'.
          Belief in anything for which there is no natural explanation can only be considered an “act of faith”.

          Raymond E Brown's probability of correctness lies with the methods and reasoning used, not his expertise in the field or his intelligence relative to my own. It is the unsurety of those methods and the reasoning, the probability they are wrong, that drives my response, not any lack of respect for his accomplishments.
          He nevertheless reflects the scholarly consensus. Namely that, although a great deal can be learnt about Jesus the man, historical-critical methodology cannot encompass the alleged miracles.

          Yay! Me too! So in the real world away from this specific debate we could probably get along - at least at a good concert :) I've always wanted to go to the Opera at the wonderful house in Sydney. If I ever plan a trip there I'll let you (and others on this site) know.
          Well there are some good DVD’s of productions there including Baz Luhrmann’s La Boheme, and an excellent Madam Butterfly...both of which I attended. But I’m rarely in Sydney nowadays, being based in Phuket, Thailand.

          And as I said earlier - I understand that there is not sufficient objective proof to directly convince a skeptic. My rebuttals here have been against overreaching, against saying there is sufficient evidence to prove the gospels and new testament are false, mere fictional works.
          OK! But claiming that there’s insufficient evidence to prove the gospels true is not to say that they were conceived as “fictional works”. The authors no doubt thought they were true.

          And we disagree, and so does most of the Christian church with the conclusions of these scholars. I see no objective reason to conclude the stories in the gospels were not what the people at the time saw and heard from Jesus.
          Well this assessment of the Gospels comes well credentialed. It derives from the New Oxford Annotated Bible edited by Michael D. Coogan (Harvard Divinity School) and it is the consensus. It represents the mainstream academic understanding of these ancient literary works.

          I would agree as regards the martyrdom of any non-eyewitness of the events. But the fact is the disciples and many first generation Christians in and around where Jesus lived were eyewitnesses.
          More to the point, the likes of Pliny, Tacitus and Suetonius do NOT confirm the alleged events of the Jesus story.

          How credible the evidence is would be subjective. That there is no scientifically substantial evidence we would agree. But Faith isn't required if there is scientifically substantial evidence - is it ...
          Agreed!

          But I would disagree there is 'no evidence' for it. There is the evidence that causes people to continue to believe in God, the evidence that causes new people every day to decide to follow Christ. The witness of the Scriptures, the Holy Spirit in the life of the individual, and the witness of the lives of those that follow Christ
          There are a lot of sociological reasons why people are religious. It is significant that the vast majority adopt the religion of their culture, such as Christianity in the West, rather than that of alien religions such as Hinduism or Islam. This suggests it is more about acculturation than revelation.

          Thanks Tassman - in the end this was a good round of posts, a good back and forth. I'm sure we will have additional discussions in the days that come.
          OK Jim. Thank you.
          “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Jedidiah View Post
            I have argued this many times. Seeking scientific evidence for God is akin to seeking a potter in the pot he made.

            It makes no rational sense. Science can have no a priori conditions set upon it. Once you set such conditions you have left the scientific realm.
            Thinking about your response to my post for some reason I'm reminded of Gödel's incompleteness theorem, which can be summed up as saying that there are statements that are true within a propositional system that can't be proven true within that system.

            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6del's_incompleteness_theorems

            And it seems rather appropriate here in that the universe seems to be able to be described at least on certain levels logically and mathematically. A logical extension of that would be to then recognize that, mathematically, logically, there are/will be things in that are true in this universe that can't be proven true in this universe.


            Jim
            Last edited by oxmixmudd; 07-23-2017, 11:55 PM.
            My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

            If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

            This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

            Comment


            • Originally posted by seer View Post
              So this passes for science today?
              Back in 1996, the popular PBS program “Bill Nye the Science Guy” taught kids that there are only two genders, determined by whether you have “XX” or “XY” chromosomes.

              TV personality Bill Nye has since seen the politically correct light, and his new show on Netflix, “Bill Nye Saves the World,” teaches that “sexuality is a spectrum.”

              http://www.theblaze.com/podcasts/bil...nce-of-gender/
              There are 4 genders:
              Male
              Female
              Both
              Neither (Schizoid)

              Don't know about sexual orientation though.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by JimL View Post
                No, but the authors of the N.T. whose intention it would be to concur with and validate the prophesies of the O.T. would. You see, you are assuming the story to be non-fiction, but that is not necessarily the case particularly when the N.T. was written many decades after the claimed event took place.
                The assumption that the NT was written many decades after the events is itself an assumption - and it certainly cannot apply with regard to those of Paul's letters which are regarded (by majority consensus) as authentic. The assumption that the basics of the events described were embellished and reworked prior to their being recorded in writing is even more of an assumption.
                1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                .
                ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                Scripture before Tradition:
                but that won't prevent others from
                taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                of the right to call yourself Christian.

                ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                Comment


                • Originally posted by JimL View Post
                  There is nothing about the 12 apostles in any secular source that I know of, which is rather odd don't you think? Kinda makes you think they must be fictional characters, no?
                  There doesn't appear to be a whole lot of documented first century evidence for anyone in the Middle East. Of course - I might be looking in the wrong places.
                  1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                  .
                  ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                  Scripture before Tradition:
                  but that won't prevent others from
                  taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                  of the right to call yourself Christian.

                  ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                  Comment


                  • There are almost no primary documents available from the birth of Christ and through to the destruction of the temple in Jerusalem.

                    Dr. E M Blakelock: “parts of one unimportant historical work” have survived from the era that parallels the Lord’s earthly life. Velleius Paterculus (ca. 19 B.C. – A.D. 30), a retired army officer and “amateur historian,” produced a “badly written history of Rome” covering that age from the end of the Trojan War to the death of Livia (A.D. 29)
                    From the forties A.D., through the sixties, very little survives. Bookends set a foot apart ... would enclose the works from those significant years. Curiously, much of it comes from Spanish emigrants in Rome
                    ."

                    The lack of extant extra-biblical documentation is due to nothing more than the lack of extant extra-biblical information - about anything.
                    1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                    .
                    ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                    Scripture before Tradition:
                    but that won't prevent others from
                    taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                    of the right to call yourself Christian.

                    ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                      There are almost no primary documents available from the birth of Christ and through to the destruction of the temple in Jerusalem.

                      Dr. E M Blakelock: “parts of one unimportant historical work” have survived from the era that parallels the Lord’s earthly life. Velleius Paterculus (ca. 19 B.C. – A.D. 30), a retired army officer and “amateur historian,” produced a “badly written history of Rome” covering that age from the end of the Trojan War to the death of Livia (A.D. 29)
                      From the forties A.D., through the sixties, very little survives. Bookends set a foot apart ... would enclose the works from those significant years. Curiously, much of it comes from Spanish emigrants in Rome
                      ."

                      The lack of extant extra-biblical documentation is due to nothing more than the lack of extant extra-biblical information - about anything.
                      Thanks for the info tabibito!

                      Jim
                      My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

                      If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

                      This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Tassman View Post
                        There are no hypothetical scenarios whereby science investigates the verification of miracles. This is why I'm not playing your game.



                        Again: There is no scientifically verified knowledge of the supernatural having the ability to act in the natural world...or that it even exists. To believe that it does exist and can affect the natural laws and constants of the universe is an act of faith, not verified knowledge. This applies equally to God doing miracles and and the Blue Fairy granting your wishes, which you said would be proof of her existence.



                        "But Abraham said, 'If they won't listen to Moses and the prophets, they won't listen even if someone rises from the dead.'" You mimic Luke 16 very well.
                        No actually YOU illustrate that very well. It is a passage that shows that what you have is willful ignorance.


                        No. The scientific method is grounded in methodological naturalism, which limits scientific research to the study of natural causes. Any attempts to define causal relationships with the supernatural result in 'god of the gaps' type arguments. Hence, science assumes that all causes are empirical and naturalistic; which means they can be measured, quantified and studied methodically.
                        Tassman, you have shown, very well I might add, what Teal was talking about a few posts ago about willful ignorance. You don't believe because there is not good enough evidence. You don't believe because no evidence is good enough for you. You don't want to believe, so ANY evidence, even God appearing to you, talking to you and giving you scientifically verifiable evidence (which you keep asking for) would not be good enough (at least that is what you claim - I think when you are actually confronted with God you will fall down on your knees and start begging for forgiveness)

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by JimL View Post
                          There is nothing about the 12 apostles in any secular source that I know of, which is rather odd don't you think? Kinda makes you think they must be fictional characters, no?
                          No. They were hardly deemed worthy of note by the ruling class of the time and there is very little writings from that time still extant today. It would actually be a shock if we still had some record from such sources.

                          Think of it this way... The majority of the great plays from ancient times are known to us only by title in spite of being copied again and again so that they can be performed in different cities and towns. The same is true with the books written by Roman Emperors which would have been copied over and over and sent throughout the Empire.

                          So why should it be a problem that we don't have mention of the apostles in sources that cared little about such things?

                          I'm always still in trouble again

                          "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                          "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                          "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                            I think when you are actually confronted with God you will fall down on your knees and start begging for forgiveness)
                            Doubtful. He strikes me more as the "resentful for all eternity" type.
                            Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                            Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                            sigpic
                            I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                              Doubtful. He strikes me more as the "resentful for all eternity" type.
                              maybe. but:


                              Philippians 2:10-11King James Version (KJV)

                              10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;

                              11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                                maybe. but:


                                Philippians 2:10-11King James Version (KJV)

                                10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;

                                11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
                                Oh, I don't disagree - but that doesn't mean he won't do it begrudgingly. You can force someone to see overwhelming evidence, but you can't force him to like it.
                                Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                                Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                                sigpic
                                I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                                Comment

                                Related Threads

                                Collapse

                                Topics Statistics Last Post
                                Started by Hypatia_Alexandria, 03-18-2024, 12:15 PM
                                48 responses
                                135 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post Sparko
                                by Sparko
                                 
                                Started by Sparko, 03-07-2024, 08:52 AM
                                16 responses
                                74 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post shunyadragon  
                                Started by rogue06, 02-28-2024, 11:06 AM
                                6 responses
                                47 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post shunyadragon  
                                Working...
                                X