Bill Nye The Idiot Guy

[Sparko]

And the Europeans took the Americas from the natives - and the Europeans prospered because of it...

I have the distinct feeling that Tassy and JimL just argue to be contrary. If we had said that morals are societal, they would have insisted that no they are individual-based. Neither of them seems to even know what morality is.

[Tassman]

No it isn't, it is based on the teachings and resurrection of the single most influential religious figure in human history, Christ Jesus. I'm good with that.

You’re deluded. Your "eternal survival" is a faith-based pipe dream.

That however does not mean that rape would necessarily undermine the social order as you claimed. It doesn't with primates. And that was your whole argument as to why rape was immoral or wrong. So you really have no good argument for why rape is immoral.

'Morality' is a code of rules. And ALL anti-social behaviour, including rape has a negative impact on human society which is why it’s proscribed by society as immoral.

But it is not religion that is causing the violence. And you know that.

So being Christian has no impact on behavioural mores, I see.

That is one of the most stupid things you have said. I bet China and North Korea are very cohesive. But back to my point, you would have no problem upsetting the social order for causes you agree with. So your whole argument about something being wrong or immoral because it disturbed the social order is pure nonsense - you don't even believe it yourself.

You were referencing “the godless leftists” disturbing our social order, as you well know, NOT China or Nth Korea. Why are so dishonest?

And the Europeans took the Americas from the natives - and the Europeans prospered because of it...

Yes the Christian colonialists stole the land of the American natives and destroyed their culture. Gotta love Christian values.

[Tassman]

You are repeating yourself. It is about each of us. you. me. the guy next door.

Morality is about how each of us modifies or restrains our behaviour to enable our participation in group living, NOT to make us “good and better” or to make God happy.

Not when you steal from another group. Just look at street gangs. They steal all the time.

Well yes it is which is why they usually end up in jail. Stealing” is the very antithesis of a cohesive society and proscribed by virtually every culture in the world. .

[seer]

You’re deluded. Your "eternal survival" is a faith-based pipe dream.

Of course, you are an atheist, that is what you have to say.

'Morality' is a code of rules. And ALL anti-social behaviour, including rape has a negative impact on human society which is why it’s proscribed by society as immoral.


You were referencing “the godless leftists” disturbing our social order, as you well know, NOT China or Nth Korea. Why are so dishonest?

Did all this just go over your head? You said: The social order can never be cohesive whilst sections of the community are deprived of full civil rights.

But that is not the case, factually. In totalitarian systems like the ones I referenced you can have cohesion without human rights. Remember you were defending the godless left, that even though they do upset the social order in my country you applaud that. Your whole argument suggesting that something is immoral or wrong because it effects social cohesion fails. Human rights are not necessary for order, and you hypocritically are more than happy to accept upsetting the social order if it is a cause that you support.

Yes the Christian colonialists stole the land of the American natives and destroyed their culture. Gotta love Christian values.

Those are not Christian values Tass, and you know it. But in your world they were only doing what they laws of nature determined them to do. Evolution in action.

[Sparko]

Morality is about how each of us modifies or restrains our behaviour to enable our participation in group living, NOT to make us “good and better” or to make God happy.

Has nothing to do with being in a group. Are you saying that if you lived alone outside of a group then it would be OK to rape a woman?

Well yes it is which is why they usually end up in jail. Stealing” is the very antithesis of a cohesive society and proscribed by virtually every culture in the world. .

And yet the gang thinks they are not doing anything immoral. That is the group. The group thinks that stealing is just fine. It is just some other group that says what they did was wrong. Nazi's thought murdering jews was just fine. So I guess what they did was not immoral because their society said it was OK, right?

[Roy]

What do you mean, it is on Tass or you to show that rape would have a real effect on social cohesion.

You were the one that claimed rape has no effect on social cohesion in primates.

Since you have produced no evidence to support your claim, choosing instead to try to shift the burden of evidence, there is no reason to believe you.

[seer]

You were the one that claimed rape has no effect on social cohesion in primates.

No Roy, I said that primates are socially cohesive even with rape. That there is no evidence that rape undermines their social order.

Since you have produced no evidence to support your claim, choosing instead to try to shift the burden of evidence, there is no reason to believe you.

That is bull Roy, it was Tass who made the claim that an act would be wrong or immoral if it undermines the social order, that is on him to demonstrate. And as I pointed out is hypocritical on his part since he would have no problem disturbing the social order if it was for a cause he agreed with. This whole argument that bases ethics on social stability is just stupid...

[Roy]

But that is not the case, factually. In totalitarian systems like the ones I referenced you can have cohesion without human rights.

You can. But can you have as much cohesion? Historical frequency of revolutions and civil wars suggest otherwise.

[seer]

You can. But can you have as much cohesion? Historical frequency of revolutions and civil wars suggest otherwise.

How can you quantify that? The Roman empire lasted for centuries, China is still chugging along, and who knows if modern democracies will even last another century? And as we know from history revolutions and civil wars often lead to greater totalitarian rule.

[Roy]

You were the one that claimed rape has no effect on social cohesion in primates.

No Roy, I said that primates are socially cohesive even with rape. That there is no evidence that rape undermines their social order.

Ok, here is a direct quote of what you actually said:

Any initiation of coercion or violence against another person demonstrably damages the social fabric of the group.

But it doesn't with our primate cousins.

An honest person might try to support that claim that violent acts such as rape do not damage social cohesion in primates, rather than denying they made it.

That is bull Roy, it was Tass who made the claim that an act would be wrong or immoral if it undermines the social order, that is on him to demonstrate.

If he made that claim - which I don't believe, since you frequently misrepresent positions - then it is his responsibility to support it. And it is equally your responsibility to support the claim you made.

But I'm quite happy that you've chosen instead to maintain your usual tactics of falsehood and misrepresentation. You are a great example of Christian standards.

[Roy]

How can you quantify that?

By studying history, which you obviously haven't since you don't know about the various revolts and revolutions that have disrupted Chinese society over the centuries.

[seer]

Ok, here is a direct quote of what you actually said:

But it doesn't with our primate cousins.

An honest person might try to support that claim that violent acts such as rape do not damage social cohesion in primates, rather than denying they made it.

Right, and that was in the context of social cohesion. So how does rape damage the social fabric of these primate groups? As far as we can tell social order is still maintained and they still thrive. WHERE IS THE EVIDENCE OF DAMAGE?

If he made that claim - which I don't believe, since you frequently misrepresent positions - then it is his responsibility to support it. And it is equally your responsibility to support the claim you made.

But I'm quite happy that you've chosen instead to maintain your usual tactics of falsehood and misrepresentation. You are a great example of Christian standards.

That is a lie Roy, I did not misrepresent what Tass claimed in this thread, never mind the fact that we have had this very discussion in the past, nor did I say anything false.

[seer]

By studying history, which you obviously haven't since you don't know about the various revolts and revolutions that have disrupted Chinese society over the centuries.

What are you taking about? China has remained relatively cohesive since the cultural revolution. So has Cuba and North Korea. Islamic countries too are relatively cohesive without human rights. And what makes you think that democracies will be any better going forward with all the competing factions?

[Tassman]

Of course, you are an atheist, that is what you have to say.

That's all one can say, given the total lack of substantive evidence of "eternal life" or a deity.

Did all this just go over your head? You said: The social order can never be cohesive whilst sections of the community are deprived of full civil rights.But that is not the case, factually. In totalitarian systems like the ones I referenced you can have cohesion without human rights

For as long s there are large sections of the populace deprived of their civil rights there will be discontent and the likelihood of revolution at the first opportunity. In short, there are better ways to maintain social cohesion than enforcing it via totalitarian rule.

Remember you were defending the godless left, that even though they do upset the social order in my country you applaud that.

Are you suggesting that the "godless left" are not entitled to full equal rights, on what basis do you discriminate against them?

Those are not Christian values Tass, and you know it.

They were the values displayed by those in power who were Christian, over an extended period of history.

[Tassman]

Has nothing to do with being in a group. Are you saying that if you lived alone outside of a group then it would be OK to rape a woman?

It’s tribal mentality as exemplified by Moses. It’s OK to rape, slaughter and pillage those outside the tribe; it’s NOT OK to do so within the tribe.

And yet the gang thinks they are not doing anything immoral. That is the group. The group thinks that stealing is just fine. It is just some other group that says what they did was wrong. Nazi's thought murdering jews was just fine. So I guess what they did was not immoral because their society said it was OK, right?

This is gang-mentality, which is essentially tribalism..