Originally posted by oxmixmudd
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Bill Nye The Idiot Guy
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Originally posted by seer View PostWell you asked
That is why in your world rape is perfectly natural, as would be pedophilia or any other deviant behavior.
Your claim, which is obviously false, was that rape would undermine social cohesion.“He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.
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Originally posted by Sparko View PostWe disagree on how we have morals, but we agree on the goal of morality. The betterment of people to a standard of "good"
It is doing what you ought to do, to be a better person.
and no, it is not backwards. It takes individuals, acting in a moral manner to make a better society. Without morals, you would not even have a society. You would just have chaos. Society cannot act, only individuals can. So a group of individuals, acting in ways to show care and love for one another and helping each other, can build a society.“He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.
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Originally posted by Tassman View PostSo, “sodomy” is bad because your imaginary deity says so. Right!
Rape was “natural” in Moses’ world too but we’ve moved on from the primitive values of your tribal deity. “Natural” does not necessarily equate to acceptable behaviour.
Yes dummy, in human society, not necessarily in that of our fellow primates.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by seer View PostRight! Just as rape is bad for the same reason.
But rape is still natural. And how can we move away from what is natural? To something unnatural?
But you have zero evidence that rape would undermine social cohesion, so you have no rational argument against rape. Except that the idea gives you a bad feeling in your tummy... And the fact that when we speak of things like homosexuality you like to point back to our primate cousins claiming that it is a natural behavior.“He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.
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Originally posted by Sparko View Postmeaning what?
This is the common false dichotomy of atheism. That the world must be split into two parts, the natural and the supernatural, and there can be no overlap of the two. That either God makes lightening, or electricity makes lightening. That the Bible is some sort of magic book or it's only a book written by men. That God created the Earth out of nothing in 6 days 6000 years ago, or the world is just an accident.
That Jesus is either just a man or only God.
But Jesus was fully man and fully God. The revelation of the incarnation is that God became one of us. That you can't say that because one knows Jesus' parents and the town He was born in that it means He is not also the Messiah, God in the Flesh, the Redeemer of mankind. That because He was born to a Virgin in a Stable he could not be the coming Heavenly King.
JimMy brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1
If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26
This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19
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Originally posted by oxmixmudd View PostWhy must morality be either God revealed or naturally evolved? Why can't it be both?
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Originally posted by Tassman View PostImaginary deities are best ignored, especially when they reflect the values the tribal nomads who invented them, e.g. re sodomy.
What is “natural” is the prime imperative of human behaviour to ensure the survival of the family and community and cooperation so that the human species survives.
ALL anti-social behaviour undermines the social values to preserve social cohesion and is therefore proscribed.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by oxmixmudd View PostWhy must morality be either God revealed or naturally evolved? Why can't it be both?
JimAtheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by Chrawnus View PostDepends on what you mean by naturally evolved. A God revealed morality would be 100% complete right from the very beginning, the only thing that would change is the context it was applied in. The only way one could possibly talk about "natural evolution" in such a world would be that our understanding could "evolve" when it comes to that revealed morality, i.e a deeper understanding of it. But the moral facts and universals themselves would always stay the same.
In the end Jesus told us that all the law and the prophets is summed up in "Love the Lord you God with all your heart soul and mind, and love your neighbor as yourself." Which is often a very far cry from what we often end up doing as we try to 'follow God's law'. For example, while I can agree that as best I can tell the scriptures define homosexual actions as sin, many times what we end up doing and saying to people that find themselves dealing with homosexuality completely violates Jesus' quote above. So if by following the scriptures we violate what Jesus says sums up all the law and the prophets, we've missed something MAJOR somewhere.
And this particular issue is especially difficult. Because the more we learn about this, the clearer it becomes that at least a significant part of sexual orientation is hereditary, not environmental or behavioral. This presents us with a significant challenge in terms of heeding the rather large conflict that presents in terms of honoring what Jesus says are the two most important commandments. If sexual orientation is hereditary, then it becomes most difficult for the homosexual person to follow Christ - not that to follow Christ is guaranteed to be easy. On the contrary, following Christ is in fact a death sentence in many parts of the world. Nevertheless, the issues here are not simple, and the typical approach of condemnation, arrogance and self-righteousness is way off the mark.
JimMy brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1
If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26
This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19
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Originally posted by oxmixmudd View PostAnd this particular issue is especially difficult. Because the more we learn about this, the clearer it becomes that at least a significant part of sexual orientation is hereditary, not environmental or behavioral. This presents us with a significant challenge in terms of heeding the rather large conflict that presents in terms of honoring what Jesus says are the two most important commandments. If sexual orientation is hereditary, then it becomes most difficult for the homosexual person to follow Christ - not that to follow Christ is guaranteed to be easy.
JimAtheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by oxmixmudd View PostSo the possibility remains that certain elements of God's commands to us are not necessarily the absolute kinds of for all time moral commands that many assume them to be. Further, as you state, there is always the issue of our (mis) understanding or (mis) application, which Jesus called out as the Pharisees continually tried to trip Him up as he took steps to challenge their interpretation of the Law. The disciples struggled with this as they tried to understand how much of the moral Law should apply to the Gentiles, end the end they came to present only a very reduced set of moral requirements to them.
It seems that sexual relationships / marriages are dealt with as earthly things that involve pragmatic concessions to human nature, rather than being immutable and absolute reflections of a heavenly ideal."I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
"Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
"[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein
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Originally posted by seer View PostAnd like I have shown, apart from God you would have no rational argument against things like rape, bestiality, adultery, promiscuity.
But you have no actual evidence that rape would significantly undermine social cohesion,
just the opposite, our nearest primate cousins rape all the time and they remain cohesive.
Heck, liberals in this country probably cause more of a problem with cohesion. Yet you like that.“He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.
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Originally posted by oxmixmudd View PostWhy must morality be either God revealed or naturally evolved? Why can't it be both?
This is the common false dichotomy of atheism. That the world must be split into two parts, the natural and the supernatural, and there can be no overlap of the two.
This isn't a false dichotomy. It's not that there can be no overlap, it's that there is nothing to overlap with.Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.
MM: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
MM on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.
seer: I believe that so called 'compassion' [for starving Palestinian kids] maybe a cover for anti Semitism, ...
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