Bill Nye The Idiot Guy

[Sparko]

First off the question presupposes that it is God that appeared to me, but putting that aside, I'm sure that if a God exists and truly wanted all of us to be certain of his existence without question, then he/she/it, would have no problem making that known, and he/she/it hasn't done that, so I can be relatively certain that the ancient claims are naught but fairy tales.

So you are afraid to just give an answer too? Why? Think it would cost you your skeptic card?

So hypothetically, if God appeared to you, and talked to you, answered all of your questions and then did any miracle you asked for, which could be verified by everyone in the world as real, would you believe in God?


Yes or No?

[Sparko]

Ah, but you’ve got to have “faith” first, dontcha know.

I gave him and you a scenario where you did not have to have faith. You had scientific verifiable proof. And you still said you would not believe and JimL avoided the question.

[JimL]

So you are afraid to just give an answer too? Why? Think it would cost you your skeptic card?

So hypothetically, if God appeared to you, and talked to you, answered all of your questions and then did any miracle you asked for, which could be verified by everyone in the world as real, would you believe in God?


Yes or No?

Of course I would. Its a silly question, If god convinced me that he/she/it was god, then obviously I would believe. So, why do you think that god doesn't do that?

[Sparko]

Of course I would. Its a silly question, If god convinced me that he/she/it was god, then obviously I would believe. So, why do you think that god doesn't do that?

He has convinced billions of people.

But thank you for at least admitting you would change your mind if presented enough proof. That is more than Tassman has admitted. Now you just have to start actually looking for that proof and not closing your mind to it.

[JimL]

He has convinced billions of people.

Only 32% of the worlds population are professed christians and I would suggest that the majority of them never really questioned the validity of their faith which was impressed upon them, not by god, but by their parents and their culture early on. Even at that, you are left with 68% that god has failed to convince. Not very impressive for an omniscient, omnipotent creator. Allah is as convincing to nearly as many muslims as YWHY is to christians, so your not saying much.

But thank you for at least admitting you would change your mind if presented enough proof. That is more than Tassman has admitted. Now you just have to start actually looking for that proof and not closing your mind to it.

Again, I would suggest that it is the religious whose minds are closed, after all that is the purpose of indoctrination.

[Sparko]

Only 32% of the worlds population are professed christians and I would suggest that the majority of them never really questioned the validity of their faith which was impressed upon them, not by god, but by their parents and their culture early on. Even at that, you are left with 68% that god has failed to convince. Not very impressive for an omniscient, omnipotent creator. Allah is as convincing to nearly as many muslims as YWHY is to christians, so your not saying much.

Again, I would suggest that it is the religious whose minds are closed, after all that is the purpose of indoctrination.

You are forgetting that people have believed in God for several thousand years, JimL.

And I am not arguing numbers. Yes there have been many who do not believe, like you. I am sorry that is so, but the proof is there for those who want it. So your question "why doesn't God convince people of his existence?" has been answered. He does.

That there are many stubborn people in the world who refuse to believe is not God's fault. That there are many false religions is not God's fault. He has revealed himself and has provided evidence of his existence and he still touches lives today. If anyone does not believe it is their fault, not Gods. Stop blaming God for your own refusal to believe. That's on you.

[Sparko]

Only 32% of the worlds population are professed christians and I would suggest that the majority of them never really questioned the validity of their faith which was impressed upon them, not by god, but by their parents and their culture early on. Even at that, you are left with 68% that god has failed to convince. Not very impressive for an omniscient, omnipotent creator. Allah is as convincing to nearly as many muslims as YWHY is to christians, so your not saying much.

Again, I would suggest that it is the religious whose minds are closed, after all that is the purpose of indoctrination.

I missed that last part in my reply above.

As we have seen in this very thread where I admitted that I would accept verifiable evidence for or against something and Tassman has shown that he would not accept any evidence that went against his firmly held beliefs about the supernatural, that makes your statement above completely false. Others here have said the same thing.

Not all atheists seem to be as close-minded as Tassman though. congratulations, you still have a chance.

[Adrift]

He has convinced billions of people.

But thank you for at least admitting you would change your mind if presented enough proof. That is more than Tassman has admitted. Now you just have to start actually looking for that proof and not closing your mind to it.

Creates an entire universe. Creates individuals with inherent value. Endows us with a moral consciousness. Directly intervenes in the flesh, and changes the course of human history. "Nah...it's all the product of an unthinking, pointless, cosmic accident."

How anyone can look around them, at the vastness of the universe, at the scale of human accomplishment, and witness true love, forgiveness, and mercy, in the face of great evil and pain, and think to themselves that all of it is, at it's core, completely arbitrary, and meaningless, is absolutely bewildering to me.

[JimL]

You are forgetting that people have believed in God for several thousand years, JimL.

You are forgetting that people have disbelieved in the existence of a god ever since the notion first emerged.

And I am not arguing numbers. Yes there have been many who do not believe, like you. I am sorry that is so, but the proof is there for those who want it. So your question "why doesn't God convince people of his existence?" has been answered. He does.

Saying so doesn't make it so Sparko. Would you say that Allah has convinced people of his existence simply because people believe in Allah. I doubt you would, so simply claiming the same about YHWY means nothing.

That there are many stubborn people in the world who refuse to believe is not God's fault. That there are many false religions is not God's fault. He has revealed himself and has provided evidence of his existence and he still touches lives today. If anyone does not believe it is their fault, not Gods. Stop blaming God for your own refusal to believe. That's on you.

Stop blaming Allah for your lack of belief in his existence, its not Allah's fault you are so stubborn.

[JimL]

I missed that last part in my reply above.

As we have seen in this very thread where I admitted that I would accept verifiable evidence for or against something and Tassman has shown that he would not accept any evidence that went against his firmly held beliefs about the supernatural, that makes your statement above completely false. Others here have said the same thing.

Not all atheists seem to be as close-minded as Tassman though. congratulations, you still have a chance.

Well thats an easy thing for you to say since there is no way to either verify or falsify the existence of what you do believe in, i.e. god.

[Sparko]

You are forgetting that people have disbelieved in the existence of a god ever since the notion first emerged.

Saying so doesn't make it so Sparko. Would you say that Allah has convinced people of his existence simply because people believe in Allah. I doubt you would, so simply claiming the same about YHWY means nothing.

Stop blaming Allah for your lack of belief in his existence, its not Allah's fault you are so stubborn.

sigh. I don't blame Allah for my lack of belief. I have actually investigated the evidence for Allah and Islam. And compared to the evidence for Christianity, it is sorely lacking. It is not Allah's fault. It is just bad evidence. If I am wrong though, I will not blame Allah. I will just admit I was wrong but I did try to find the truth but it was my fault for failing. And as I said before, I started out as a skeptic like you, not believing in God, but I was agnostic enough to be open to the possibility.

You may feel the same about evidence for God at all. But instead of saying that it is your fault for not trying or being open to the evidence, you want to blame God for it. The real problem is that such an excuse isn't going to count for anything when you meet up with him at the Judgment. You can comfort yourself with blaming God for not providing enough proof now, but it won't mean a thing when you are face-to-face with him.

[Sparko]

Well thats an easy thing for you to say since there is no way to either verify or falsify the existence of what you do believe in, i.e. god.

easy to say? Tassman is the one who proved it over and over in this thread.

I didn't used to believe in God, but now I do. And if it could be proved to me that Christianity is wrong with similar evidence to that which convinced me it is true, then I would disbelieve. Why would I want to believe a lie despite evidence it was a lie?

Yet given the same hypothetical situation, Tassman said he would still disbelieve in God despite scientifically verifiable evidence and God himself talking to him and providing the evidence. Who's the one who is close-minded?

[oxmixmudd]

How do you know that, are you god? You profess to have had experiences that nonbelievers like myself have not had, experiences in which you've encountered god directly in a positive way. I guess its just that some people, like yourself, are special!

That God has done all that is necessary for mankind to be saved, to come into and to have a relationship with Him is a fundamental element of Christian Theology. God became a man, lived the perfect life of Messiah, allowed Himself to be killed, was dead and buried and rose from the dead bodily. If a person dies and comes back from the dead to tell you about God - what more can God do? Look at your own words when asked "If God appeared to you and ...". You said "... the question presupposes that it is God that appeared to me". It would appear you have basically blocked yourself into an intellectual corner were there really isn't much if anything that could convince you God is real. And I certainly am not likely to get around that. But a starting place has to be whether or not you want to know if God is real. That is like step number one.

And actually, I have not professed to 'have experiences nonbelievers have not had'. I have had experiences I attribute to God. I have asked some of my atheist friends if they have experienced anything similar. They ALL said no. I was curious because some make the claim everybody experiences God and so they can be blamed for not believing. I was asking to see if that was true, if that makes any sort of sense. I found out it doesn't.

So I know from what they have told me that at least as regards those friends they have not had similar experiences. And the specific case I am speaking of there involves a sense of the presence of God, of events that struck them as direct answers to prayer or the like. I also know from conversations with Christian friends that most of what I have experienced would find similar analogues in their lives as well. Some have had more dramatic events and answers to prayer, others less so. So it does seem - anecdotally anyway - that one difference between people that believe in God and people that don't could lie at some fundamental level of how they experience life, whether or not they have an innate sense of the presence of God.

But the 'special' comment is misguided. I have no sense of superiority or inferiority over the issue. I just don't understand why some people have them and others don't. And I can empathize with why a person that had never sensed the direct presence of God might find belief in Him questionable at the very least.


Jim

[oxmixmudd]

Only 32% of the worlds population are professed christians and I would suggest that the majority of them never really questioned the validity of their faith which was impressed upon them, not by god, but by their parents and their culture early on. Even at that, you are left with 68% that god has failed to convince. Not very impressive for an omniscient, omnipotent creator. Allah is as convincing to nearly as many muslims as YWHY is to christians, so your not saying much.

And I'm pretty sure that would be a case you would lose. I know very few that follow Christ that have not at some point in their life questioned its validity or struggled with whether or not to continue to believe. In Western culture especially there are far more elements that would encourage one to abandon such faith than which encourage one to keep it. In other parts of the world to follow Christ is to be a sub-human. Persecution in Islamic and communist countries can be very difficult and in many cases fatal.

And as an aside. Historically those that chose to truly follow God have always been in the minority. This is what most of the Old Testament history of Israel is all about. Perhaps many people have a sense there is a God. But far fewer choose to actually try to follow Him. Too many other 'more important' things to worry about. This is also what Jesus taught (see the parable of the sower). And as I said earlier - God is not interested in forced allegiance (one major difference between Islam and Christian faith). He is interested in those that choose to follow Him. I believe that is a strong reason why He doesn't make Himself known in the way you would prefer.


Jim

[Teallaura]

If a book were written 2000 years ago that claimed a blue fairy with halo and wings was born of a virgin and performed miracles, would you believe it?

If it came back from the dead and affected human history as absolutely nothing else ever has, yup.

Try a better example - ask would someone believe in a square circle. What you're wanting is an example so nonsensical that no one would examine it.

But an honest observer examines the evidence even when the allegation seems impossible before pronouncing a conclusion.