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Thread: God a Trinity.

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    tWebber 37818's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chrawnus View Post
    There's a big difference between incoherence and incomprehensibility. I'll readily admit that the Trinity is incomprehensible. No one has yet to show that's it's incoherent, though.
    Oh, but I am arguing that it is both necessary and corresponds with how God has reveled Himself. God is YHWH. Uncaused existence. Uncaused Cause is of two natures. Uncaused being eternal, and a cause which is finite and temporal being a cause. And God being Spirit (John 4:24) The third entity being the Holy Spirit who makes them being the One substance. YHWH is infinite and omnipresent. Walking in the garden is a finite and temporal act (Genesis 3:8; John 1:18).
    . . . the Gospel of Christ, for it is [the] power of God to salvation to every [one] believing, . . . -- Romans 1:16.

    . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3, 4.

    Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1.

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    Troll Magnet Sparko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 37818 View Post
    Oh, but I am arguing that it is both necessary and corresponds with how God has reveled Himself. God is YHWH. Uncaused existence. Uncaused Cause is of two natures. Uncaused being eternal, and a cause which is finite and temporal being a cause. And God being Spirit (John 4:24) The third entity being the Holy Spirit who makes them being the One substance. YHWH is infinite and omnipresent. Walking in the garden is a finite and temporal act (Genesis 3:8; John 1:18).
    this is why you are "nontraditional" -- you have no clue what a nature is. a cause is not a nature. eternal is not a nature. it is an attribute of a nature.

  3. Amen Chrawnus amen'd this post.
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    tWebber shunyadragon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 37818 View Post
    You can believe that if you want to. That is not what I or other Christians believe. Claiming what is not believed is what is being believed when it is not, is not honest.

    As for the OT. God is YHWH and does not have parts. And is also taught in the NT.
    Deuteronomy 6:4,
    Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God [is] one LORD: . . .

    Mark 12:29,
    . . . Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord: . . .
    These references support Monotheism, and not the Trinity, which the Jews justifiably reject.
    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

    go with the flow the river knows . . .

    Frank

    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

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    tWebber shunyadragon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chrawnus View Post
    No it doesn't. It represents a later interpretation to justify the New Testament theology of Jesus and the Holy Spirit as distinct Persons within the triune Godhood.
    You just reworded my view of the source of the Trinitarian belief.
    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

    go with the flow the river knows . . .

    Frank

    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

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    tWebber 37818's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparko View Post
    this is why you are "nontraditional" -- you have no clue what a nature is. a cause is not a nature. eternal is not a nature. it is an attribute of a nature.
    OK. So are you arguing being temporal and visible are also attributes of the divine nature?

    When the Logos εγενετο became flesh that was a change (John 1:14).

    And the Logos was the only one who did it, "All things were made [εγενετο] by him; and without him was not any thing made [εγενετο] that was made [γεγονεν]." (John 1;3)

    The Logos is the visible of the invisible (John 1:18; Colossians 1:15). The Logos was also someone else than God (John 1:2).
    Last edited by 37818; 04-30-2017 at 01:32 PM.
    . . . the Gospel of Christ, for it is [the] power of God to salvation to every [one] believing, . . . -- Romans 1:16.

    . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3, 4.

    Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1.

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    tWebber
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    I believe the Logos and the holy spirit are one and the same. The Omnipresent spirit off the Almighty. I am unorthodox and untraditional. I dont believe that God has a gender. Being called Father was the semites way of getting away from the common practice of worshipping the divine Mother.In Native spirituality the sky is Father and the earth is Mother. These are not the cause in my belief. The Earth is a gift from the Almighty and thus sacred. I believe in an invisible realm her on Earth that we can not see ,
    Eden is still here. In the Gnostic gospel of Thomas Chrirst says that the kingdom of God is spread out across the whole world and the people can not see it. I believe the Earth is a gift to cherish. Some are so certain of a future paradise elswere after death, that they will remain blind to the idea that earth(Eden) is a paradise in a cosmic desert(milkey way). Do those that forsake this gift deserve a better home?

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    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by Abu Njoroge View Post
    I believe the Logos and the holy spirit are one and the same. The Omnipresent spirit off the Almighty. I am unorthodox and untraditional. I dont believe that God has a gender. Being called Father was the semites way of getting away from the common practice of worshipping the divine Mother.In Native spirituality the sky is Father and the earth is Mother. These are not the cause in my belief. The Earth is a gift from the Almighty and thus sacred. I believe in an invisible realm her on Earth that we can not see ,
    Eden is still here. In the Gnostic gospel of Thomas Chrirst says that the kingdom of God is spread out across the whole world and the people can not see it. I believe the Earth is a gift to cherish. Some are so certain of a future paradise elswere after death, that they will remain blind to the idea that earth(Eden) is a paradise in a cosmic desert(milkey way). Do those that forsake this gift deserve a better home?
    I ment to say earth is an oasis in a cosmic desert. definately not a paradise in many aspects.We have suffering,pain,old age, death. How does one appreciate heaven without experiencing some hell? I think those who have experienced hate have a better appreciation for love and kindness. I believe in Christ, yet my understanding is way out there to many. thats O.K. my questioning and doubts have strengthened my belief in the Almighty. I claim Bahaii for many reasons. 1 is its understanding that true science and true religion are compatable because they come from the same source.I apologize to my Bahaii brethren if my understanding misses the mark? I realize a lot of my personal beliefes are not traditional Bahaii so please dont judge them by my lack of understanding.

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    tWebber 37818's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Abu Njoroge View Post
    I believe the Logos and the holy spirit are one and the same. The Omnipresent spirit off the Almighty. I am unorthodox and untraditional. I dont believe that God has a gender. Being called Father was the semites way of getting away from the common practice of worshipping the divine Mother.In Native spirituality the sky is Father and the earth is Mother. These are not the cause in my belief. The Earth is a gift from the Almighty and thus sacred. I believe in an invisible realm her on Earth that we can not see ,
    Eden is still here. In the Gnostic gospel of Thomas Chrirst says that the kingdom of God is spread out across the whole world and the people can not see it. I believe the Earth is a gift to cherish. Some are so certain of a future paradise elswere after death, that they will remain blind to the idea that earth(Eden) is a paradise in a cosmic desert(milkey way). Do those that forsake this gift deserve a better home?
    Quote Originally Posted by Abu Njoroge View Post
    I ment to say earth is an oasis in a cosmic desert. definately not a paradise in many aspects.We have suffering,pain,old age, death. How does one appreciate heaven without experiencing some hell? I think those who have experienced hate have a better appreciation for love and kindness. I believe in Christ, yet my understanding is way out there to many. thats O.K. my questioning and doubts have strengthened my belief in the Almighty. I claim Bahaii for many reasons. 1 is its understanding that true science and true religion are compatable because they come from the same source.I apologize to my Bahaii brethren if my understanding misses the mark? I realize a lot of my personal beliefes are not traditional Bahaii so please dont judge them by my lack of understanding.
    Well are you arguing that the Logos was both omnipresent and finite at the same time (John 1:18; Genesis 3:8)? Would not that indicate one being with opposite attributes?
    . . . the Gospel of Christ, for it is [the] power of God to salvation to every [one] believing, . . . -- Romans 1:16.

    . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3, 4.

    Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1.

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    tWebber
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    Unsure of what you mean by opposite attributes? I believe that God is the one constant. everything that is not God came from God.God is spirit and alway existed. when Gods spirit entered matter the universe was created. In the material universe there is duality. Gods highest nature is beyond the duality of our physical universe. Its lower nature is closest to us.I am trying to explain my belief in words that are reaching. Its as if Gods spiritual vibration is slowed down in order to be experienced at the human level.When perceived from the human level God has masculine and feminine aspects. I believe God has no gender.Do we ask what gender a mountain is? or the sun,the ocean? although I like to think of the ocean as feminine. In Genesis 1 v20 it says something like let the waters bring forth life. To me this hints at evolution. To others that would be seen as blasphemy. when you ask if I am arguing that the Logos is omnipresent and finite? I see the Logos as the Holy Spirit. This spirit is eternal. All matter is finite in the sense that it always changes form and physical bodies die and decay. I respect your christian belief although my beliefs are rather different. I believe the Christ existed. He claimed I am the Son of God and the Son of man. I do not believe that he claimed to be the only begotten Son. To me What you call the Father is the source,Almighty,Eternal one,Elohim. The Holy spirit is the Logos, Word, Holy Ghost,Gods omnipresent spirit. To me the Son of God is humanity itself. I love the teachings of the Messiah. One reason I do not claim christianity is because I am very sceptical about the belief that God ever required blood sacrifices. I tend to believe that early Semite priests(rabbis) created the blood sacrifices as a way to control the masses. I think the slaughter of lambs,bullocks, doves as sacrifices were an abomination and primitive belief created for the gullible. I think there is a hidden message when Christ overthrows the tables at the temple.

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    tWebber 37818's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Abu Njoroge View Post
    Unsure of what you mean by opposite attributes? I believe that God is the one constant. everything that is not God came from God.God is spirit and alway existed. when Gods spirit entered matter the universe was created. In the material universe there is duality. Gods highest nature is beyond the duality of our physical universe. Its lower nature is closest to us.I am trying to explain my belief in words that are reaching. Its as if Gods spiritual vibration is slowed down in order to be experienced at the human level.When perceived from the human level God has masculine and feminine aspects. I believe God has no gender.Do we ask what gender a mountain is? or the sun,the ocean? although I like to think of the ocean as feminine. In Genesis 1 v20 it says something like let the waters bring forth life. To me this hints at evolution. To others that would be seen as blasphemy. when you ask if I am arguing that the Logos is omnipresent and finite? I see the Logos as the Holy Spirit. This spirit is eternal. All matter is finite in the sense that it always changes form and physical bodies die and decay. I respect your christian belief although my beliefs are rather different. I believe the Christ existed. He claimed I am the Son of God and the Son of man. I do not believe that he claimed to be the only begotten Son. To me What you call the Father is the source,Almighty,Eternal one,Elohim. The Holy spirit is the Logos, Word, Holy Ghost,Gods omnipresent spirit. To me the Son of God is humanity itself. I love the teachings of the Messiah. One reason I do not claim christianity is because I am very sceptical about the belief that God ever required blood sacrifices. I tend to believe that early Semite priests(rabbis) created the blood sacrifices as a way to control the masses. I think the slaughter of lambs,bullocks, doves as sacrifices were an abomination and primitive belief created for the gullible. I think there is a hidden message when Christ overthrows the tables at the temple.
    Opposites would be, Omnipresent (infinite) and finite (local). Eternal and temporal. Visible and invisible. And the like.
    . . . the Gospel of Christ, for it is [the] power of God to salvation to every [one] believing, . . . -- Romans 1:16.

    . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3, 4.

    Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1.

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