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Cogito ergo sum

Here in the Philosophy forum we will talk about all the "why" questions. We'll have conversations about the way in which philosophy and theology and religion interact with each other. Metaphysics, ontology, origins, truth? They're all fair game so jump right in and have some fun! But remember...play nice!

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God a Trinity.

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  • #31
    Originally posted by Tassman View Post
    The Trinity is both incoherent and incomprehensible just as its related doctrine of the Hypostatic Union of Jesus is incoherent and incomprehensible. With the latter it is a logical contradiction that Jesus was simultaneously fully God and fully man. Similarly, God cannot be simultaneously one god but three full persons within the godhead.

    The definitive dogma of the Trinity is spelt out in the Athanasian Creed, but it only works because it contradicts itself every second line.

    https://www.ccel.org/creeds/athanasian.creed.html
    If you want to claim that the Trinity and the Hypostatic Union are incoherent concepts you have quite some work ahead of you in order to show it. I bet there would be quite some fame in it for you, seeing as you would be the first person in recorded history to manage to do it.

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by Abu Njoroge View Post
      I would agree with this statement. Jesus was spiritually awake. A bucket of ocean water is still part of the ocean. I do not take everything from the bible in the literal sense, I do believe Yeshua(Jesus) was and is the Messiah. I am sceptical about pretty much all the religious books yet believe there is truth within the bible. I am not sceptical about the existence of God. To me the reality of God is a real as the air we breath. I am also a liberal and believe in religious freedom. I use to be pentacostol. At one time I was afraid to question the beliefs of my upbringing. I dont believe there is only one understanding that takes us home to God when we leave this world. The Christ said one must be born again of the spirit. The difference in my faith and traditional faiths is the definition of what born again is. I have less fear in my life than I once had. I am in awe of God. The old testament says to fear God.sometimes I am scared of Gods awesome power,but I believe the Almighty is compassionate and merciful.
      Let's focus on one thing. Since you believe that Christ was divine then you agree He was (and is God) - correct? And you and I are not divine - we are not God - right? BTW your bucket analogy really doesn't works - we can not necessarily equate the physical with the spiritual. You are speaking as if God is just really big, in a physical sense - like an ocean.
      Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by Tassman View Post
        The Trinity is both incoherent and incomprehensible just as its related doctrine of the Hypostatic Union of Jesus is incoherent and incomprehensible. With the latter it is a logical contradiction that Jesus was simultaneously fully God and fully man. Similarly, God cannot be simultaneously one god but three full persons within the godhead.

        The definitive dogma of the Trinity is spelt out in the Athanasian Creed, but it only works because it contradicts itself every second line.

        https://www.ccel.org/creeds/athanasian.creed.html
        divine dichotomy is were two concepts contradict each other yet both hold some truth. I believe the ultimate truth can not be told. It can only be experienced.To feel the presence of the holy spirit may be impossible to put into words. In india they have a word (shanti) which loosely translated means a peace that surpasses all understanding. This I believe happens when one is born again of the spirit of the living God. I agree some with the Gnostic idea that it was the spirit of Christ not the body that saves. It says in the bible that flesh and blood can not inherit the kingdom of God.

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        • #34
          Originally posted by Abu Njoroge View Post
          divine dichotomy is were two concepts contradict each other yet both hold some truth. I believe the ultimate truth can not be told. It can only be experienced.To feel the presence of the holy spirit may be impossible to put into words. In india they have a word (shanti) which loosely translated means a peace that surpasses all understanding. This I believe happens when one is born again of the spirit of the living God. I agree some with the Gnostic idea that it was the spirit of Christ not the body that saves. It says in the bible that flesh and blood can not inherit the kingdom of God.
          my typing is bad. I ment I agree with the Gnostic idea

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by seer View Post
            Let's focus on one thing. Since you believe that Christ was divine then you agree He was (and is God) - correct? And you and I are not divine - we are not God - right? BTW your bucket analogy really doesn't works - we can not necessarily equate the physical with the spiritual. You are speaking as if God is just really big, in a physical sense - like an ocean.
            My analogy of the bucket comes from the religious idea that we must empty ourselves of the things of the world to be filled with the spirit. The more we let go of or detach from the world the more room for the holy spirit. Not sure if it was Paul? who said be in the world but not of the world. I am not a trinitarian but do understand the concept. I believe in the divinity of Christ but do not see him as the Father in its entirety. I believe his human side had choices to make and He chose surrender to Gods will.Was filled with Gods spirit,thus could say I and the Father are one,without claiming to be the creator.

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by Jedidiah View Post
              What are you trying to answer with this. I fail to see how this responds to Sparko's post.
              Consider:
              John 1:3,
              . . . All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. . . .


              According to that one verse what does God do apart from the Logos - His Son? What?

              To claim that God does anything apart from the Son is to deny God Himself. You cannot have one without the other. To claim God without the Son of God is to deny the Trinity and any need of it. No Trinity explanation no need of God then.
              Last edited by 37818; 05-02-2017, 08:16 AM.
              . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

              . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

              Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by Abu Njoroge View Post
                My analogy of the bucket comes from the religious idea that we must empty ourselves of the things of the world to be filled with the spirit. The more we let go of or detach from the world the more room for the holy spirit. Not sure if it was Paul? who said be in the world but not of the world. I am not a trinitarian but do understand the concept. I believe in the divinity of Christ but do not see him as the Father in its entirety. I believe his human side had choices to make and He chose surrender to Gods will.Was filled with Gods spirit,thus could say I and the Father are one,without claiming to be the creator.
                Good you make a distinction between the Creator and created. I thought that you were leaning towards pantheism. But since you do believe in the divinity of Christ I'm not sure why you reject the concept of the Trinity, three persons in one God.
                Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                  Are you denying that all the OT theophanies are the preincarnate Christ (John 1:18)?
                  how do you even get that from what I said?

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                    how do you even get that from what I said?
                    You argued:
                    Are you saying God can't show himself or interact in time? God can do anything he wants to. . . .
                    Nowhere does God do any of that apart from the Son of God. Do you think you know an exception?
                    . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                    . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                    Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                      You argued:

                      Nowhere does God do any of that apart from the Son of God. Do you think you know an exception?
                      You realize that the Son IS God, right? But he did not have a human nature in the OT. So when he showed himself as a theophany, he did not have a physical human body of flesh. Sometimes he appeared as man, sometimes as a whirlwind. Sometimes as a celestial being so beautiful that Moses face glowed after seeing just a piece of him.

                      In the Old Testament, YHWH is the triune God. All three persons referenced as one. Only in the NT do we see the distinction in the persons clearly.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                        You realize that the Son IS God, right? But he did not have a human nature in the OT. So when he showed himself as a theophany, he did not have a physical human body of flesh. Sometimes he appeared as man, sometimes as a whirlwind. Sometimes as a celestial being so beautiful that Moses face glowed after seeing just a piece of him.

                        In the Old Testament, YHWH is the triune God. All three persons referenced as one. Only in the NT do we see the distinction in the persons clearly.
                        OK.

                        The Son of God is even in the OT the visible of the invisible God. He has always been how God reveled Himself and by which God created all things. He has always been God's temporal agent. Which shows all non-trinitarian views of God to be false. All causes are finite and temporal. The uncaused Cause is both eternal and temporal being a cause.
                        . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                        . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                        Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          You are not making much sense. A cause can be eternal

                          Imagine a stack of books that have been sitting on a table for eternity

                          The table is the eternal cause of the books being off the ground

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Chrawnus View Post
                            If you want to claim that the Trinity and the Hypostatic Union are incoherent concepts you have quite some work ahead of you in order to show it. I bet there would be quite some fame in it for you, seeing as you would be the first person in recorded history to manage to do it.
                            You're joking of course.

                            There is a reason why the doctrines of the Trinity and the Hypostatic Union are called "mysteries", namely because they are utterly contradictory.
                            “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Tassman View Post
                              You're joking of course.
                              The joke would be the notion that you'd actually be able to defend your assertion that the two doctrines are incoherent/contradictory.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                                You are not making much sense. A cause can be eternal

                                Imagine a stack of books that have been sitting on a table for eternity

                                The table is the eternal cause of the books being off the ground
                                A couple things here. A cause is always temporal or it does not cause anything in time.

                                The table and stack which is on the table being around for eternity would co-eternal with God and yet not be God.

                                The uncaused Cause would both be eternal being co-eternal with God being uncaused and be temporal and finite being a cause.

                                The Logos was both with God (John 1:1, 2) and was God too (John 1:1, 3). Was the cause of all caused things (John 1:3). All caused things are temporal are they not? And a Cause in time is temporal too.

                                God walking in the garden was being temporal and finite. Yet being God (YHWH) is eternal and infinite. Both. We identify as the Son of God (John 1:18) who appears to Adam and Eve.
                                . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                                . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                                Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                                Comment

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