So what I was trying to get at is - what is the difference between grumbling and righteous indignation? (i.e. a huge part of the later part of the Old Testament)
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This forum is primarily for Christians to discuss matters of Christian doctrine, and is not the area for debate between atheists (or those opposing orthodox Christianity) and Christians. Inquiring atheists (or sincere seekers/doubters/unorthodox) seeking only Christian participation and having demonstrated a manner that does not seek to undermine the orthodox Christian faith of others are also welcome, but must seek Moderator permission first. When defining “Christian” or "orthodox" for purposes of this section, we mean persons holding to the core essentials of the historic Christian faith such as the Trinity, the Creatorship of God, the virgin birth, the bodily resurrection of Christ, the atonement, the future bodily return of Christ, the future bodily resurrection of the just and the unjust, and the final judgment. Persons not holding to these core doctrines are welcome to participate in the Comparative Religions section without restriction, in Theology 201 as regards to the nature of God and salvation with limited restrictions, and in Christology for issues surrounding the person of Christ and the Trinity. Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 forum without such restrictions.
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Discussion on matters of general mainstream evangelical Christian theology that do not fit within Theology 201. Have some spiritual gifts ceased today? Is the KJV the only viable translation for the church today? In what sense are the books of the bible inspired and what are those books? Church government? Modern day prophets and apostles?
This forum is primarily for Christians to discuss matters of Christian doctrine, and is not the area for debate between atheists (or those opposing orthodox Christianity) and Christians. Inquiring atheists (or sincere seekers/doubters/unorthodox) seeking only Christian participation and having demonstrated a manner that does not seek to undermine the orthodox Christian faith of others are also welcome, but must seek Moderator permission first. When defining “Christian” or "orthodox" for purposes of this section, we mean persons holding to the core essentials of the historic Christian faith such as the Trinity, the Creatorship of God, the virgin birth, the bodily resurrection of Christ, the atonement, the future bodily return of Christ, the future bodily resurrection of the just and the unjust, and the final judgment. Persons not holding to these core doctrines are welcome to participate in the Comparative Religions section without restriction, in Theology 201 as regards to the nature of God and salvation with limited restrictions, and in Christology for issues surrounding the person of Christ and the Trinity. Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 forum without such restrictions.
Additionally and rarely, there may be some topics or lines of discussion that within the Moderator's discretion fall so outside the bounds of mainstream orthodox doctrine (in general Christian circles or in the TheologyWeb community) or that deny certain core values that are the Christian convictions of forum leadership that may be more appropriately placed within Unorthodox Theology 201. NO personal offense should be taken by such discretionary decision for none is intended. While inerrancy is NOT considered a requirement for posting in this section, a general respect for the Bible text and a respect for the inerrantist position of others is requested.
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Complaining/grumbling, and the destroying angel
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"I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill
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Originally posted by KingsGambit View PostSo what I was trying to get at is - what is the difference between grumbling and righteous indignation? (i.e. a huge part of the later part of the Old Testament)Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom
Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
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I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist
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Grumbliing: Waah! I am tired of this stuff! Gimmee something different! Waah!
Righteous indignation: When, oh Lord, will you deal with the injustices in this world. Evil men are opressing the poor. I acknowledge that the Lord is God and will wait to see what happens.If it weren't for the Resurrection of Jesus, we'd all be in DEEP TROUBLE!
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Originally posted by One Bad Pig View PostThe 'righteous' bit seems rather obvious from here."I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill
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Originally posted by KingsGambit View PostIn the abstract, but most people think they're right when they complain. Perhaps this means a call for discernment and honest reflection.
Goofus whines about how hungry he is and doesn't do anything to help fix his problem.
Gallant politely asks if he can have a snack before dinner.If it weren't for the Resurrection of Jesus, we'd all be in DEEP TROUBLE!
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Originally posted by KingsGambit View PostIn the abstract, but most people think they're right when they complain. Perhaps this means a call for discernment and honest reflection.Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom
Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
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I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist
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Originally posted by One Bad Pig View PostHow about this: Complaint is usually focused on oneself; righteous indignation is usually focused on the plight of others.
“ Think of it as complaining with a purpose."
Have a clear purpose. Before complaining, know what outcome you’re looking for and avoid complaining and stay positive!
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Originally posted by LostSheep View PostI would assume Paul's definition of "complain" there would be something like the Israelites did in the wilderness before they crossed the Jordan into Canaan (in Exodus).
Isn't that what God did for the Israelites? Like Moses, he educated them, feed them and put up with their doubts and fears. We all fear for the things we don't understand. Moses said to the people, "Do not be afraid; for God has come in order to test you, and in order that the fear of Him may remain with you, so that you may not sin." (Exodus 20:20).
There are some "very" unpopular stands that Christians have to take up but out of the fear (like Moses, who had to face Pharaoh) we become or became afraid. However, God reassures us - and with much of a struggle with fear and doubt behind it, and like God who spoke with so many others, "Fear not for I am with you." Christians will have to struggle with the divine as well as "man" - to prevail. That is 'also' our lot in this life, as well. We can't escape the internal struggle of doubt or fear, we all have it. Remember Moses, who had many fears and doubt himself - especially with letting the people know that God sent him and to deliver them from the Egyptians.
Genesis 32:28
He said, "Your name shall no longer be Jacob, but Israel; for you have striven with God and with men and have prevailed."
The Israelites, like their father - Jacob, struggled with (or strived) with God (the divine) and with men (human behavior - human power - human wickedness, evil) and prevailed. And I feel that is every Christian calling is to go through, sort of speak, that fire of purification. In the end, you'll know that it was God who was with you through it all.Last edited by Marta; 05-07-2017, 02:31 AM.
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P.S.
An evid is a slave. The word for slavery is Avdut, work involves the idea of serving someone and the word for worship is also avodah. Avodat Elohim is the service or worship of the true God. Avodah. It’s service to a higher power. Kol ha’olam kulo gesher tzar me’od, v’ha’ikar lo l’fached k’lal – the whole world is a narrow bridge, and the most important thing is to not be afraid.
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complaining and grumbling is being ungrateful. Basically when God gives you something good and you whine about it not be good enough, that is what is wrong. If you complain about something genuinely wrong or injust that is not a sin. If I pray to God saying I am in pain and need his help, that is OK. If I pray and say "Why am I not rich yet God? Don't you love me? I deserve to be rich and all I have is this lousy 3 bedroom ranch house and 2 kids always crying" That is being selfish and ungrateful for what you have.
The Israelites were given food from heaven in a freaking desert and instead of being grateful, they whined and complained that is wasn't good enough. They were ungrateful.
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Originally posted by Sparko View Postcomplaining and grumbling is being ungrateful. Basically when God gives you something good and you whine about it not be good enough, that is what is wrong. If you complain about something genuinely wrong or injust that is not a sin. If I pray to God saying I am in pain and need his help, that is OK. If I pray and say "Why am I not rich yet God? Don't you love me? I deserve to be rich and all I have is this lousy 3 bedroom ranch house and 2 kids always crying" That is being selfish and ungrateful for what you have.
The Israelites were given food from heaven in a freaking desert and instead of being grateful, they whined and complained that is wasn't good enough. They were ungrateful.
antonyms: freedom, democracy
If I had been enslaved and oppressed for the last 400 years, the thought of change in belief/faith - trust in a emotional and physical way would seem unimaginable, but with God all things are possible. The mind "in order to perceive it" has to catch with the body - correct? What the mind is not able to perceive - understand! However, and agreed, the Israelites had angered God with their continual lack of trust or faith, and not to mention, the hurtfulness of turning to another god. Continually God had reminded the Israelites, " I am the LORD thy God" which was the opening phrase of the Ten Commandments..... I am Yahweh your God, who brought you up out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. You shall have no other gods before me." If, the statement - on measure for measure, is consistent, God is forgiving and rich in Mercy. But if you see what sin does to people and know what sinners are like(in a general way) it isn't as far off from the Israelites - but look at how God deals with our hurts and what we feel inside and He heals them (Ephesians 2:4). If anything, we begin to understand the goodness of God. Jesus knew the father well enough to say ""Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good--except God alone."
Oppression is a human right issue in some countries - what do you think it affects in a social setting in regards to your dignity not to mention physical and emotional care? Oppression traumatizes people as a whole not to mention it wipes your confidence of having any faith and/or belief. The oppressor wants control - How many nations have tried to rule over the Israelite and each time who brought them salvation from their enemies? 1 Samuel 12:10-14 . Even Moses, as he spoke with God, was very weak in his manner, but God built Moses up along with his brother Aaron, as scripture notes".The Lord said to Moses, "See! I have made you a lord over Pharaoh, and Aaron, your brother, will be your speaker." When Moses approached Pharaoh for the first time, what do you think he asked him? Exodus (Shemot) 7:16.And you shall say to him, 'The Lord God of the Hebrews sent me to you, saying, "Send forth My people, so that they may serve Me in the desert," And in the same breath, God strengthened the Israelite in faith and confidence, like Moses, to understand what God was about to set them apart in order to be a nation unto God. 2 Esdras 2:32-36. Christians - are within the same vine.
Let me tell you something about nursing homes (some not all), and not recently because my mother was at a wonderful place, some of the elderly long to see a smiling face or to someone to communication with. Some of the elderly don't even have visitors and it looks as though the life was "purged" out of them. That is oppression - internally (inside) and in a very emotional way. However, did you know that the elderly take of care of one another - it is a beautiful site to behold. When others (like themselves) help or reach out, it is enough to make you cry. Oppression in a emotional way brings out the best in others because God hears the cries of the poor.
In the same way, sinners can be mistreated until someone cares enough to bring them the good news of Christ - it is as if "life" came back into their soul, like a type of a brightness around them. But, I've seen sinners turn back and forth more than once until they mature in faith. You said it best - there are types of complaining that are justifiable but there are also symptoms for crying out loud when others are so uneducated in not expressing themselves .Last edited by Marta; 05-08-2017, 02:50 PM.
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Originally posted by Sparko View Postcomplaining and grumbling is being ungrateful. Basically when God gives you something good and you whine about it not be good enough, that is what is wrong. If you complain about something genuinely wrong or injust that is not a sin. If I pray to God saying I am in pain and need his help, that is OK. If I pray and say "Why am I not rich yet God? Don't you love me? I deserve to be rich and all I have is this lousy 3 bedroom ranch house and 2 kids always crying" That is being selfish and ungrateful for what you have.
The Israelites were given food from heaven in a freaking desert and instead of being grateful, they whined and complained that is wasn't good enough. They were ungrateful.
"Faith, belief and trust is in general the persuasion of the mind that a certain statement is true and or factual. It is the belief and the assent of the mind to the truth of what is declared by another, based on his or her authority and truthfulness. The English word faith is dated from 1200–50, from the Latin fidem, or fidēs, meaning trust, akin to fīdere, which means to trust (making your words count!)" Faith, Belief and Trust. All parts of your Confidence
and, also you can say that grumbling and whining can cause: uncertainties and not to have a ‘most abundant good faith’ between leader and people an duberrima fides, which means ‘most abundant good faith.’ ”. Lawyers terms = uberrima fides, “imbued with ultimate trust and confidence.”
What happened - ended up with “divided loyalties" - and as the OP asked, how does this apply in today's world?Last edited by Marta; 05-11-2017, 12:09 PM.
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