Thread: Koranic Heaven...
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February 2nd 2011, 12:02 AM #31
Re: Koranic Heaven...
No....and that is not what the Hebrew tells us.
Planets form via accretion from a nearby sun.
Sun first, then planets.
The purpose of Genesis is not to mention planets, pulsars, quasars, black holes, etc...it is to summarize the creation event in a language which only had circa 3K words in its vacabulary (excluding proper names).Well we don't know whether other planets contain life, yet. Just because the other planets don't contain life, does that mean that they're not worth mentioning?
What is the vantage point, brother...?You can clearly see that that verse does not have the word Earth in it. You claimed that it does. So how is this verse in accordance with the Biblical verse. It's only half right as heaven is mentioned but not Earth.
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February 2nd 2011, 12:19 PM #32
Re: Koranic Heaven...
What does the Hebrew tell us? Genesis 1 is quite clear that the Earth is made before the Sun.
Well then the summary is poor at best. Also Genesis isn't really about creation only though is it? It mentions things that have little or nothing to do with creation. Black Holes could have been mentioned later as I doubt they would have formed immediately.The purpose of Genesis is not to mention planets, pulsars, quasars, black holes, etc...it is to summarize the creation event in a language which only had circa 3K words in its vacabulary (excluding proper names).
I don't understand your question.What is the vantage point, brother...?
Also did you look at the definition I provided?
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February 2nd 2011, 02:14 PM #33
Re: Koranic Heaven...
No.
You are not reading the text, brother.
Even in English it is very plain. The vantage point of the Genesis narrative is from the surface of the earth. It is from the point of the earth-bound observer that the entire narrative takes place.
Light is mentioned on ‘day 1’ as our sun was already created and shining, but the earth was covered in such a thick layer of clouds that the sunlight could not be completely seen until the atmosphere become completely transparent and translucent on ‘Day 4’.
No doubt you are merely parroting the false idea that the sun was created on ‘day 4’. A simple study of the Hebrew created verbs employed eliminates this paradigm.
Further, ‘Day 1’ ends by stating ‘evening’ and ‘morning’…of which, you cannot have unless the earth is already rotating upon its axis about the sun.
Well then the summary is poor at best. Also Genesis isn't really about creation only though is it? It mentions things that have little or nothing to do with creation. Black Holes could have been mentioned later as I doubt they would have formed immediately.
It is the best of all summaries and accurately reflects what modern science tells us.
I don't understand your question.
Also did you look at the definition I provided?
Even your googled definition states heavens, brother. This means the cosmos.
Regarding sura 81, the vantage point is also the surface of the earth.
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February 2nd 2011, 08:04 PM #34
Re: Koranic Heaven...
“And so I tell you, keep on asking, and you will receive what you ask for. Keep on seeking, and you will find. Keep on knocking, and the door will be opened to you.
For everyone who asks, receives. Everyone who seeks, finds. And to everyone who knocks, the door will be opened.
(Luke 11:9-10)
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February 2nd 2011, 08:38 PM #35
Re: Koranic Heaven...
I'm assuming this is the verse you are referring to.
Even without the context of the passage, Numbers 23, it is obvious that what is being talked about is not God's divinity, but God's ways. Commentary on this passage says:Numbers 23:19 (New American Standard Bible)
19"(A)God is not a man, that He should lie,
Nor a son of man, that He should repent;
(B)Has He said, and will He not do it?
Or has He spoken, and will He not make it good?
Cross references:
A.Numbers 23:19 : 1 Sam 15:29
B.Numbers 23:19 : Is 40:8; 55:11
It shall be noted that God had already appeared before in the Old Testament in what may be considered human form, like when Jacob 'wrestled' with Him.Balak was angry with Balaam. Thus a confession of God's overruling power is extorted from a wicked prophet, to the confusion of a wicked prince. A second time the curse is turned into a blessing; and this blessing is both larger and stronger than the former. Men change their minds, and break their words; but God never changes his mind, and therefore never recalls his promise. And when in Scripture he is said to repent, it does not mean any change of his mind; but only a change of his way. There was sin in Jacob, and God saw it; but there was not such as might provoke him to give them up to ruin. If the Lord sees that we trust in his mercy, and accept of his salvation; that we indulge no secret lust, and continue not in rebellion, but endeavour to serve and glorify him; we may be sure that he looks upon us as accepted in Christ, that our sins are all pardoned.1 Corinthians 2:14 The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.
Ephesians 2:8-9 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast.
"I recall your earliest lessons. You fell from one thousand feet during the walk of death, which, alone, was odd enough at your age, but you made short work of the walk of maiming and the walk of intense discomfort and tore your head clean off. I comforted you, well, your head, saying that you could just walk if off, because, you know, the cut was clean and then you would punch a mountain. In space!" -Master Li, Jade Empire
http://www.youtube.com/user/FishOnABicycleInc
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February 3rd 2011, 06:52 AM #36
Re: Koranic Heaven...
I don't think you're reading the text at all. Most of the things you said had to be added in. Also the Sun is most certainly made after the Earth. Just because you believe the Heaven and Earth to be a merism doesn't change the fact that God creates the first light after the Earth is created.
The source of the light is never told what it is and hence anyone can say what it is. This is the beauty of being vague. So are you saying that God created two Suns, one for the Solar system and one for the Earth?
lol. It most certainly does not accurately reflect what modern science tells us. That's just wishful thinking.It is the best of all summaries and accurately reflects what modern science tells us.
Even your googled definition states heavens, brother. This means the cosmos.The fact that it also has Sky means nothing to you? Also what makes you think heavens necessarily means cosmos?Regarding sura 81, the vantage point is also the surface of the earth.
Regarding Surah 81:11, it doesn't mention Earth. Also the verse says that the Heavens will be unveiled. Is that the same thing as the Old Heavens passing away? It doesn't say anything about the Old Earth passing away.
I also recall saying before that aren't the words "passing away" not alluding to animism? We use those words when someone has died do we not?
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February 3rd 2011, 12:19 PM #37
Re: Koranic Heaven...
I'm the one who brought up the merism language in Gen. 1:1, not Bowman. For a couple of alternate OEC views on the creation narrative you might want to check out a thread I created not long ago here. You won't be able to post in that subforum, but you can at least gain a better understanding of how there could be a creation of the sun on day 1, and a revealing of it on day 4. I'm not sure if Bowman follows either view or if he maybe has a better alternative, you'll have to follow up with him. In an attempt to not derail the thread more than I may already have, that's all I'll say about it here.
"Give the Word a chance to say that the Word is just the Way. It's the Word I'm thinking of, and the only Word is love" - John Lennon
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February 3rd 2011, 04:08 PM #38
Re: Koranic Heaven...
I know that you were the one who brought it up. But if you looked at creation stories before the OT's, the creation story in Genesis is merely a rewrite but distorted to fit in God. Let's face it, the OT was aimed for the Jews only and thus tried to make it out like they were special and that God was the one who created them. Never does God try to spread his word to other nations, that I'm aware of, in the OT. He's only obsessed with the Jews. I know this isn't exactly relevant to the topic.
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February 3rd 2011, 04:49 PM #39
Re: Koranic Heaven...
As I understand it, that's not at all accurate. The surrounding cultures had a very different sort of creation mythology. For example, ancient Babylonians believed that the god Marduk killed the chaos goddess Tiamat, and from her body was created the earth and the sea. It was through opening Tiamat's corpse through a series of gates that Marduk allowed it to rain upon the land. In Egyptian cosmology we see a celestial goose creating the cosmos by laying the moon and then the sun god Re bursts through the moon egg to create the earth.
According to renowned Old Testament scholars like John H. Sailhamer, and John Walton, Hebrew creation narratives simply do not carry the same sort of mythic overtones found in contemporary ancient creation narratives. That's not to say that there aren't similarities found between Hebrew narratives and their contemporaries in other accounts (the Noah account for instance), but the creation account itself is fairly distinct.
Dr. Walton, for instance, points out that the Genesis account is "to be sure, nonmythical" and that any sort of borrowing from other Near Eastern cultures (specifically Babylonian culture) is "difficult to demonstrate". [Ancient Israelite Literature in its Cultural Context: A Survey of Parallels, 1989, pp. 34-38].
And Dr. John Sailhamer states in Genesis Unbound:
Again, sorry for taking the thread off topic.
"Give the Word a chance to say that the Word is just the Way. It's the Word I'm thinking of, and the only Word is love" - John Lennon
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February 4th 2011, 09:46 AM #40
Re: Koranic Heaven...
Like what...?
Not in the Hebrew.Also the Sun is most certainly made after the Earth.
Not even in the English.
Your ignorance of the original languages in not an excuse...
You are confusing posts again, brother.Just because you believe the Heaven and Earth to be a merism doesn't change the fact that God creates the first light after the Earth is created.
Further, the Hebrew creation verbs negate your merit-less assertion.
It is our sun, brother.The source of the light is never told what it is and hence anyone can say what it is.
Read the text...there is evening and morning...the earth is rotating on its axis about the sun.
This is the beauty of being vague.
The text is direct, and accurate.
No.So are you saying that God created two Suns, one for the Solar system and one for the Earth?
This would be your merit-less idea...totally unsupported by scripture.
The Genesis account completely matches science.lol. It most certainly does not accurately reflect what modern science tells us. That's just wishful thinking.
Sky is a secondary definition.The fact that it also has Sky means nothing to you?
The classic definition, and the context.Also what makes you think heavens necessarily means cosmos?
It does in the context.Regarding Surah 81:11, it doesn't mention Earth.
Sura 81 is entirely copied from the Book of Revelation.Also the verse says that the Heavens will be unveiled. Is that the same thing as the Old Heavens passing away? It doesn't say anything about the Old Earth passing away.
I also recall saying before that aren't the words "passing away" not alluding to animism? We use those words when someone has died do we not?
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February 4th 2011, 09:47 AM #41
Re: Koranic Heaven...
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February 4th 2011, 09:55 AM #42
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February 4th 2011, 02:09 PM #43
Re: Koranic Heaven...
The text in bold is what you added. Nowhere does Genesis even mention what you said. Also show me where it says in Genesis that the first light, that you consider the Sun, was created before the Earth.
I am not confusing posts but I know I made the mistake of assuming you also agreed with the view. Sorry.You are confusing posts again, brother.
You're adding things again. Where's your evidence according to the Bible that the Earth is rotating on its axis? Also what is the Hebrew word for Sun?It is our sun, brother.
Read the text...there is evening and morning...the earth is rotating on its axis about the sun.
Again that's just wishful thinking.The text is direct, and accurate.
Where's your evidence to prove that?The Genesis account completely matches science.
Can you tell me the difference between these two words? Hashamayim and Shamayim.Sky is a secondary definition.
Unveiling means the same thing as "passing away"?It does in the context.
I'm not disputing that. I'm saying that the text does not match the Bible's text.Sura 81 is entirely copied from the Book of Revelation.
Why does the Bible use the words "passed away"? Is that not alluding to animism?
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February 4th 2011, 02:22 PM #44
Re: Koranic Heaven...
“Day” One: Genesis 1:1 – 1:5
In the beginningcreated God the heavens and the earth; and the earth was without form and empty, and darkness on the face of the deep; and the Spirit of God was brooding on the face of the waters. Then said God, Let be light and was light. And saw God the light that good (it was) and separated God between the light and the darkness. And called God the light Day. And the darkness He called Night; and was the mixing and was the breaking forth time one.
אבְּרֵאשִׁית, בָּרָאאֱלֹהִים, אֵת הַשָּׁמַיִם, וְאֵת הָאָרֶץ.
1:1 Berei[color=red]EDITME[/color][color=red]EDITME[/color][color=red]EDITME[/color][color=red]EDITME[/color] bara Elohim et hashamayim ve'et ha'aretz.
In the beginning created God the heavens and the earth;
The frame of reference in Genesis 1:1 is the cosmos.
God declares that He brought into existence the entire physical universe - matter, energy, and all the space-time dimensions associated with matter and energy.
Einstein's theory of general relativity tells us that the cause of the universe creates it independently (i.e. from outside) of matter, energy, and the space-time dimensions along which matter and energy are distributed.
Creation of the entire physical universe (matter, energy, space and time), occurred ~14 Billion years ago.
The creation of the Universe brought with it not only the time into which it flows, but also the space into which it expands. Thus, the presence of the matter and energy of the Universe not only causes the existence of time, but also of space. This creation event includes an expanding universe, which continues to expand at this time.
Here is a brief scriptural summary:
1) MATTER: Genesis 1:1, 2:4, Isaiah 42:5, 45:12, 45:18, Colossians 1:16, Revelation 4:11.
2) ENERGY: Genesis 1:3.
3) SPACE: Romans 8:38-39, Psalm 104:2, Isaiah 40:22.
4) TIME: Titus 1:2, 2 Tim 1:9
5) FROM THE INVISIBLE: Hebrews 11:3.
6) EXPANDING UNIVERSE: Expanding Universe: Job 9:8, Psalm 104:2, Isaiah 40:22, 42:5, 44:24, 45:12, 48:13, 51:13, Jeremiah 10:12, 51:15, Zechariah 12:1.
The heavens (universe, solar system, sun, earth, etc.) were already created before the First "day".
“Day” One describes the preparation of planet earth for the creation of life.
The Bible describes the Earth's initial conditions following its creation when the Sun is already shining. The original Earth is described as being without any oceans or water at all (4.5 Billion years ago).
Support Scripture:
Bless Jehovah, O my soul! O Jehovah my God, You are very great; You have put on honor and majesty, covering Yourself with light like a cloak, and stretching out the heavens like a curtain; (Psalm 104:1-2)
By faith we understand the ages to have been framed by the Word of God, so that the things seen should not come into being out of things that appear. (Heb 11:3)
Scientific Discovery Support:
1) Evidences for a Big Bang Creation Event
A) Existence and temperature of the cosmic background radiation.
B) Black Body character of the cosmic background radiation.
C) Cooling rate of the cosmic background radiation.
D) Einstein’s Special & General relativity.
Scientific Predictions Gen 1:1:
1) Time and Space have a Beginning.
2) Matter & Energy have a beginning.
3) The Universe displays divine design.
4) The Universe’s design is for the benefit of man’s existence on earth.
5) The Universe has a transcendent cause.
6) The Universe is expanding.
7) The laws of physics were fixed from a very early point in the universe’s history, possibly since the beginning.
אֱלֹהִים, מְרַחֶפֶת עַל-פְּנֵי הַמָּיִם.
1:2 Veha'aretz hayetah tohu vavohu vechoshech al-penei tehom veruach Elohim merachefet al-penei hamayim.
And the earth was without form and empty, and darkness on the face of the deep; and the Spirit of God was brooding on the face of the waters.
Genesis 1:2 explicitly shifts the frame of reference, the narrator's vantage point, to the surface of Earth, above the water, but below the cloud layer.
Genesis 1:2 begins after the formation of the Earth's oceans with a description of the Earth as a water-covered planet covered by dense clouds (4 Billion years ago).
This verse describes the initial conditions of primordial Earth:
1) Earth being without form.
2) Earth empty.
3) Earth was covered in darkness.
4) Earth was covered with water.
5) Earth unfit for life.
With the frame of reference and the initial conditions for the six creation “days” thus established, a straightforward chronology for the creation days' events can unfold.
Support Scripture:
You covered it with the deep as with a garment; the waters stood above the mountains. (Psalm 104:6)
Where were you when I founded the earth? Declare if you know understanding. Who has set its dimensions, for you know? Or who has stretched a line on it? On what were its bases sunk? Or who cast its cornerstone, when the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy? Or who shut up the sea with doors, when it burst out; it came forth from the womb? When I made the clouds to clothe it, and darkness its navel-band; (Job 38:4-9)
Scientific Discovery Support:
The scientific record agrees with Genesis 1:2, 9-10 in stating that shortly after the earth’s formation, the planet’s surface was more fully covered with water than at present.
(Monastersky, R., “Speedy Spin Kept Early Earth from Freezing,” Science News 143 (1993), page 373.
http://www.geolsoc.org.uk/template.cfm?name=WateryEarth
Scientific Predictions Gen 1:2:
1) Earth is old.
2) The surface of early Earth was covered with water.
3) Early Earth was shrouded in darkness.
4) Early Earth was empty of life.
5) Early Earth was unsuitable for life.
6) Life appeared early in Earth’s history.
7) Life appeared under hostile conditions.
8) Life appeared suddenly.
9) Early life showed features of design.
10) The purpose of this design in the universe is to sustain and benefit human life on earth.
גוַיֹּאמֶר אֱלֹהִים, יְהִי אוֹר;וַיְהִי-אוֹר.
1:3 Vayomer Elohim yehi-or vayehi-or.
Then said God, Let be light and was light.
Much of the earth’s original cloud cover was removed at this stage. Perhaps by a planetary collision with the earth (see science reference below).
God’s command is set forth from the vantage point of the surface of the earth, as established in Gen 1:2.
דוַיַּרְא אֱלֹהִים אֶת-הָאוֹר, כִּי-טוֹב;וַיַּבְדֵּל אֱלֹהִים, בֵּין הָאוֹר וּבֵין הַחֹשֶׁךְ.
1:4 Vayar Elohim et-ha'or ki-tov vayavdel Elohim bein ha'or uvein hachoshech.
And saw God the light that good (it was) and separated God between the light and the darkness.
This is the opaque light of the Sun (already created) which now is visible from the vantage point of the Earth’s surface.
God “sees” the light from the surface of the Earth, since His Spirit (and vantage point) is still on the surface of the Earth.
הוַיִּקְרָא אֱלֹהִים לָאוֹר יוֹם, וְלַחֹשֶׁךְקָרָא לָיְלָה; וַיְהִי-עֶרֶב וַיְהִי-בֹקֶר, יוֹם אֶחָד. {פ}
1:5 Vayikra Elohim la-or yom velachoshevh kara lailah vayehi-erev vayehi-boker yom echad.
And called God the light Day. And the darkness He called night; and was the mixing and was the breaking forth time one. {P}
It is very clear from the text that the sun had already been created and the earth was rotating on its axis, since there was light (day) and darkness (night).
The sun was created BEFORE the first “day”.
The root meaning of Erev, the Hebrew word for “Evening”, is:
Mixture
Disorder
Chaos
The root meaning of Boker, the Hebrew word for “Morning”, is:
Breaking Forth
Orderly
Able to be discerned
The flow of order out of chaos is described sequentially, six times over, in the Genesis creation account.
The Bible tells of the flow to ever more complex arrangements of existing matter by the seemingly simple statement of “and there was evening and there was morning”. In a deeper sense, “and there was disorder and there was order” or “and was the mixing and was the breaking forth”.
There was nothing to which one could relate this “day”. It stands alone as “time one”.
Scientific Discovery Support Gen 1:3-5:
1) Early in Earth’s history, the atmosphere changed so that day and night could be differentiated for an observer on Earth’s surface.
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2001/08/0820_moonimpact.html
http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/planetearth/moonwhack_side_000901.html
http://www.psi.edu/projects/moon/moon.html
Scientific Predictions Gen 1:3-5:
1) Early in Earth’s history, the atmosphere changed so that day and night could be differentiated for an observer on Earth’s surface.
Other references:
RTBLast edited by Bowman; February 4th 2011 at 02:32 PM.
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February 4th 2011, 02:39 PM #45
Re: Koranic Heaven...
See for yourself, brother.
Compare the entire sura…
81.1 When the sun will be folded up and so darkened. (Announces Jesus’ opening of the Sixth Seal)
81.2 And when the stars fall upon the Earth. (Jesus’ opening of the Sixth Seal)
81.3 And when the mountains were made to move. (Jesus’ opening of the Sixth Seal)
81.4 And when the ten and ten abandoned the woman. (The First Beast)
81.5 And when the beasts were gathered. (The Second Death)
81.6 And when the sea and river shall be filled with fire and dried up. (The Second Trumpet Blast)
81.7 And when the souls shall be united with those whom it has followed. (The Marriage of the Lamb)
81.8 And when she is questioned about the sound. (The Fifth Trumpet Blast)
81.9 On account of which tail she was killed. (The Sixth Trumpet Blast)
81.10 And when the books will be spread out. (The Book of Judgment)
81.11 And when the heaven shall be unveiled. (Jesus’ opening of the Sixth Seal)
81.12 And when the fire of Hell is set ablaze. (The Second Death)
81.13 And when Paradise is brought near. (The New Jerusalem descends)
81.14 I know, that such a one was, or is, going forth, a man that which she has presented.(Announces The Lamb coming forth)
81.15 So I swear on account of the concealed stars. (Swears by Jesus’ opening of the Seventh Seal)
81.16 The ships, the stars. (Jesus’ opening of the Seventh Seal)
81.17 And/by the night when it departed. (Swears by Jesus’ opening of the Seventh Seal)
81.18 And/by the dawn when it became extended. (Swears by Jesus’ opening of the Seventh Seal)
81.19 Certainly His Word is a Holy messenger. (Jesus, the Word of God)
81.20 Lord of power in the presence and possession of the throne, the established one.
(Jesus as God upon the Throne)
81.21 Obeyed one there, Amen. (Jesus as God upon the Throne)
81.22 And your companion is not possessed with a devil. (John, the Companion of Jesus Christ)
81.23 And certainly he saw him on account of the heavens, the perspicuous. (John sees the Mighty Angel)
81.24 And he is not against the Mystery on account of its tenaciousness. (The Mystery of God)
81.25 And he is not on account of the expelled serpent’s saying. (The Accuser is thrown down)
81.26 Then where you may take away? (Jesus is caught up to the Throne)
81.27 Indeed he is except a warning to the Jinn and of mankind. (A warning from John)
81.28 For whosoever desires from you that be righteous. (The Water of Life)
81.29 And you will not, except that he wills allah, the Lord of the jinn, and of mankind. (The Lord of the Abyss)
To its source…
81…
.1 Jesus opens the Sixth Seal…Sun departs………………………...Rev 6.12
.2 Jesus opens the Sixth Seal…Stars fall…………............................Rev 6.13
.3 Jesus opens the Sixth Seal…Mountains move………...................Rev 6.14
.4 The Woman rides the First Beast………………...........................Rev 13.1, 17.3-17.4, 17.16
.5 The Gathering of the Beasts……………........................................Rev 19.19-20
.6 Second Trumpet Blast…Sea and River turn to Blood…………..Rev 8.8, 16.3-4, 16.12
.7 The Wedding of the Lamb………………………………………...Rev 19.7-9
.8 The Fifth Trumpet Blast …Sound of the Demonic Locusts…….Rev 9.1-9
.9 The Sixth Trumpet Blast…Tails of the Demonic Locusts………Rev 9.10-21
.10 The Book of Judgment……………………...................................Rev 20.12
.11 Jesus opens the Sixth Seal…Heavens depart…………………...Rev 6.14
.12 The Lake of Fire………………………………………………….Rev 19.20, 20.10, 20.14–15, 21.8
.13 New Jerusalem Descends…………………………………...........Rev 2.7, 3.12, 21.2, 21.10–12, 21.14, 21.18–21, 22.2, 22.14
.14 The Lamb comes Forth…………………………………………..Rev 5.5
.15 Jesus opens the Seventh Seal…Concealed stars……..................Rev 8.12
.16 Jesus opens the Seventh Seal…Stars & Ships….……………….Rev 8.9; 8.12
.17 Jesus opens the Seventh Seal…3rd part of the Night departs….Rev 8.12
.18 Jesus opens the Seventh Seal…3rd part of the Day departs …...Rev 8.12
.19 The Word of God…………………………………………………Rev 19.13
.20 Jesus at the Throne of God………………………………………Rev 3.21, 4.3, 7.9–10, 7.17, 12.5, 22.1, 22.3
.21 Jesus Obeyed at the Throne……………………………………...Rev 19.4–5, 22.3
.22 John, the Companion of Jesus Christ…………………………....Rev 1.9
.23 John sees the Mighty Angel………………………………………Rev 10.1-6
.24 The Mystery of God………………………………………………Rev 10.7
.25 The Accuser is thrown down……………………………………..Rev 12.4, 12.9-12
.26 Jesus is caught up to the Throne………………………………....Rev 12.4-5
.27 A Warning from John………………………………………….....Rev 22.6–10, 22.18-19
.28 The Water of Life…………………………………………………Rev 22.1, 22.11, 22.17
.29 The lord of the Abyss……………………………………………..Rev 9.11, 22.15
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