Christians: If there were no afterlife - a question of ways.

[seanD]

I agree. Even so, if there was no resurrection there would still be a God and that God, the God I know, would be worthy of my devotion.

Agreed. That's the way it should be. But it's easier to say it than practice it. It's sort of hard to be devoted to someone for a long period of time without any sort of long term hope. It's part of the flaw of human nature.

[Pilgrim]

This gets to one of my main frustrations with current, western style Christianity. It seems that by nature we are like the sons in the parable of the prodigal wanting the things of the father but not the father himself. So much of what I see in contemporary churches, especially evangelical and conservative churches, is about what we must do to get the things of the father, that is, eternal reward. The eternal reward is not the goal, the Father is. At least that's the way I see and feel about it. If there was no reward then even so, a relationship with the father would be motivation in and of itself: I just want God.

[Soyeong]

It's counter question time:

If there were an afterlife, would it change the way you live your life?

[Griggsy]

" Life is its own validation and reward and ultimate meaning to which neither God nor the future state can further validate.' Inquiring Lynn

Why would one want God if not for that future state? How could He help us otherwise when nothing ever arises to show that?

How can He as a square circle help us per the ignostic-Ockham thread?

How can He help us per the arguments about Him thread?

[Soyeong]

" Life is its own validation and reward and ultimate meaning to which neither God nor the future state can further validate.' Inquiring Lynn

How do you know this is true?

Why would one want God if not for that future state?

Because God is good and He loves us in the present state.

How could He help us otherwise when nothing ever arises to show that?

Begging the question.

How can He as a square circle help us per the ignostic-Ockham thread?

Say what?

How can He help us per the arguments about Him thread?

Why would He need to?

[apophenia]

If there were an afterlife, would it change the way you live your life?

If I had strong proof that the Christian afterlife existed, then yes, I think it would change my life greatly. At bottom I am profoundly pragmatic. I'd like to believe I were made of sterner stuff, but facing an eternity of suffering, I don't see that I would have any choice but to cave. I think any other choice would itself be profoundly irrational. Now you didn't include this in your question, but there are more afterlifes than the Christian kind, specifically the reincarnation of Buddhism. Pascal's wager takes on a decidedly different cant when the alternative is expanded thusly.

I didn't add my answer to which religion I would choose (largely because I simply didn't think to do so). I will correct that omission now. I am something of a lapsed Taoist currently (I believe, I just don't do much about it). If I were to choose, it's hard to pick, but after exhaustive analysis, I choose the following in order:

1. Theravada Buddhism: I tend to intellectualize my spiritual practice and I have no patience for meditation, so while the compassion aspects of Mahayana Buddhism appeal, it's the combined rational and practical aspects -- The Noble Eight-fold Path -- that appeal to me.

2. Roman Catholicism: At heart, though I have developed a somewhat non-traditional practice, I lean heavily in the direction of orthodoxy, and, I firmly believe that the apostolic tradition and the authority of tradition are necessary to provide the foundation for Christian doctrine, faith and belief. [Protestants may disagree, I don't intend here to debate them].

3. Gnostic Christianity: Largely because it deals a knock-down punch to the problem of Theodicy, but also again because gnosis / knowledge is a compelling force in my life. I would be lying if I also omitted that Gnosticism has a certain 'romantic appeal', that being in that I picture Gnostics as new-agey sorts of people [despite my dislike of new age types and their beliefs]; nonetheless, such people tend to live a Bohemian sort of existence, and that is the romantic appeal.

Notably, two out of the three choices ended up being Christian; I don't think this is accidental. I was raised Protestant, and so Christianity is still intimately familiar to me. I note offhand that my readings about Jainism appealed to me in respects, but it's been so long that I no longer remember what Jainism is. The same undoubtedly goes for many other religions that exist now, and those in the past; we can only choose from that which we know, and to borrow a thought from Feyerabend, our current faith has an "unfair advantage" in comparison with other faiths which we might happen to examine; we're seldom compelled to more than a cursory examination, and we have difficulty putting ourselves in their shoes (no doubt compounded by the lack of depth to our understanding of alien faiths). When Christians are confronted, they sometimes respond that if the person had a better understanding they would not be possessed of their disagreement, that the objector needs to read more extensively before they jump to such facile conclusions -- yet how many of them have done so before cavalierly dismissing the truths of other faiths, much less ones they don't even know about. I'm not dismissing that one needs a reasonable working knowledge of something, first, to understand, and then to criticize. Nor am I suggesting that one must become a specialist in comparative religion. I don't know that I have a point other than that perhaps we should be careful when we use these words and be purposeful that we aren't using them in either deceitful or hypocritical ways.

[37818]

The whole issue would then be the identity of God or no God at all. Either way fundamental consequences would still exist as they are now regarding how choices work in our world as it is. Eternal consequences would be another issue. If the claims of Christianity were still there, what would negate those claims to allow a different choice?

The odds are choices made regarding the unknown will be wrong given the number of choices given.

[Bob the Builder]

If you had to choose to become a faithful follower of a religion other than your own, what would it be?

I have none at the moment, but if I had to choose (and if I could really believe it) then I would become Wiccan

It's counter question time:

If there were an afterlife, would it change the way you live your life?

In that I would become a member of whatever religion led to that afterlife, yes. But who knows which one that would be?

[Oolon Colluphid]

It's counter question time:

If there were an afterlife, would it change the way you live your life?

Well, as others have noted, that rather depends upon which particular afterlife.

If it's heaven as envisaged by Calvinists, then no, I wouldn't. I'd just do as I was programmed to do.

If it's heaven as envisaged by Catholics I might go to confession. If I examine my hypothetical motives here, I'd have to say it's not so much a desire for heaven as a fear of hell.

But on the whole, no it wouldn't dramatically alter the way I live my life.

When I lost my faith it didn't dramatically alter the way I live my life. There's no reason to suppose I'd be all that different if I found it again. I was raised as a Christian. The consequences of that are life-long even if you lose your faith. I think it must take a special effort to overcome one's upbringing and accordingly alter one's general behaviour. I felt no need or desire to make significant changes in the way I conducted myself, and so I didn't bother with the effort because I didn't want to. I'm fairly happy with the way I live my life, although I'm aware of my flaws. I try my best to overcome my own short-comings and will continue to do so whether or not there's an afterlife.

[Soyeong]

I have none at the moment, but if I had to choose (and if I could really believe it) then I would become Wiccan

Why Wiccan?

In that I would become a member of whatever religion led to that afterlife, yes. But who knows which one that would be?

I was thinking about the Christian afterlife because it is the counter to the question in the OP, but I suppose the afterlife of other religions would also be fair game. Also, I might be splitting hairs here, but I see a member of a religion as not being necessarily the same as a practitioner of a religion, though there is overlap. The difference being that one claims to be a member with their words, while the other doesn't need to use words. If said god of the afterlife is not interested in just lip service, then just being a member might be a problem.

[Soyeong]

If it's heaven as envisaged by Calvinists, then no, I wouldn't. I'd just do as I was programmed to do.

If it's heaven as envisaged by Catholics I might go to confession. If I examine my hypothetical motives here, I'd have to say it's not so much a desire for heaven as a fear of hell.

I wasn't thinking about Calvinists when I asked, so for now we'll go with the Catholics minus purgatory. As with the lack of the Christian afterlife having implication on the rest of Christian theology, so with the reverse. There is an almighty God who created the universe, who loves you and created you for a purpose, who you have grieved with your sin, and you just might confess? Your knowledge and certainty of the reward (because the hypothetical is assumed to be true) would be so great that it would be foolish to do anything but run headlong for it, with no thought of hell.

When I lost my faith it didn't dramatically alter the way I live my life. There's no reason to suppose I'd be all that different if I found it again. I was raised as a Christian. The consequences of that are life-long even if you lose your faith. I think it must take a special effort to overcome one's upbringing and accordingly alter one's general behaviour. I felt no need or desire to make significant changes in the way I conducted myself, and so I didn't bother with the effort because I didn't want to. I'm fairly happy with the way I live my life, although I'm aware of my flaws. I try my best to overcome my own short-comings and will continue to do so whether or not there's an afterlife.

While overcoming our short-comings is important to Christians, I think we are called to live lives that do more than just that (even though many who call themselves Christians fail to do that). If that's all you're doing now, and all you're doing as a Christian, then I think that has more to say about how you were living as a Christian.

[Oolon Colluphid]

While overcoming our short-comings is important to Christians, I think we are called to live lives that do more than just that (even though many who call themselves Christians fail to do that). If that's all you're doing now, and all you're doing as a Christian, then I think that has more to say about how you were living as a Christian.

"If that's all you're doing..."

You make it sound like striving to overcome one's flaws is easy. It isn't. It's a constant struggle.

Ok, when I was a Christian I also prayed frequently, sought the company of other Christians and witnessed to non-Christians. What else, according to you, was I missing?

[element771]

I would not change my life if I knew that there was no afterlife.

As far as other religions, I am not too sure. I am a committed theist as I did not arrive at theism because of faith but through reason. This seems to be backwards but it is the truth nonetheless. I am more sure of theism than Christianity. So if Christianity were proven false somehow I would be a theist or a deist.

[37818]

To use reason, one must trust [have faith in] reason. Faith is something every one has in what they "believe" [that is, faith]. We really do not know anything apart from faith of some kind.

There is faith, and the're "faiths." Atheists for example would not consider there "belief" in no god or not in supernatural things a faith, even though by a definition it is.

[Kia ora]

It's counter question time:

If there were an afterlife, would it change the way you live your life?

I doubt it.