Catholic = Christian Really.

[George Blaisdell]

George -

As always, thanks for your insightful input. I guess I wonder why you would consider yourself somehow bound to any tradition at all other than simply the person of Jesus Christ?? The church is a reflection of those bound to Christ - rather than their source (per your buddies in the "latin confession"). I am also wondering if others in the eastern tradition hierarchy would be quick to agree with you if their institution or position was somehow called into question?

I appreciate the dialogue between the other two gentlemen - I remain a cautious spectator.

Aner

Aner - The Holy Tradition of Orthodox Christianity confesses that we "believe in one, holy, catholic and Apostolic Church..."

The Church, you see, is an article of Faith for our Faith... We believe the Bible when it says that the Church is the Body of Christ, and that Christ is Her Head, and that She is the Bride of Christ... Christ discipled his Apostles who discipled those who followed them, from the beginning to now... There is much in the Bible that is referred to, but not enumerated, such as when Christ said: "If you love Me you will keep My commandments..." There were many of these, as well as the Holy Spirit of Pentecost leading the Apostles into all Truth... And they are a part of Holy Tradition, passed on from generation to generation, in the Church, you see...

The Reformation attacked the Church [as they understood it] when they rebelled against Rome, the Latin Church, which had been apostatic and lost in her arrogant usurpation of Headship of the Church [over Christ], dividing the Church into the militant and triumphant, and claiming for their Petrine See the dictatorship of Rome over all Christendom... The Eastern Sees ALL rejected this usurpation, with Constantinople preferring to be overrun by Turks rather than to place themselves under Rome...

You see, when the Church is ACTUALLY and IN FACT understood as the very Body of Christ on earth, then one can understand that entry INTO that Body by the means afforded to all BY that Body, [the Mystery of Baptism], is in fact entry into the Kingdom of Heaven, for we thereby place ourselves under the headship of Christ, and live in obedience to His commandments, by living in obedience to the commandments of the Church, in its discipleship, which it has been providing to the faithful for 2000 years...

The Church is not a reflection of those bound to Christ, but is in fact the very Body of Christ on earth... We are members of this Body conditionally, as we hold the Mystery of the Faith, which is Christ IN us, in a pure conscience, and in that when we are living a repentant life... That life is conditional... Anyone can fall, and there is no "position" from which one cannot fall... [Including the Pope, or any other bishop, or priest, or monk...] We carry the Grace of God in earthen vessels that require lives of ongoing self-denial and mortification of our members by the talking up of our own cross each day, remembering that the cross is an instrument of torture unto death of the flesh...

One simply cannot do this outside the Church, and the Grace of the Church, the Grace on earth of Christ's own Body, and indeed, the feeding of the lambs and the sheep with His Body and Blood... It is the Church that KNOWS HOW, you see, to deal with the snags and turns in the road that lead to destruction, and indeed can see them, and can either guide you through them, or take you past them, if that be needed, and has the Grace, for Christ is Her Head, to know when and how to do which or what is needed... For her elders have walked the talk, and carry immense grace and power in prayers of intercession, and insight into the human condition wherever it be found...

The "institution" of the Orthodox Church is understood within the Orthodox Church to be highly suspect at all times, and is frequently called into question, and especially when its actions by members slips outside the canonical norms... Indeed, "religion" itself is understood to be a spiritual illness, where the forms are understood to be the substance, where ritual replaces repentance, and prayers and services become almost mechanical and rote... Satan is always liiking to strike the heads of the Church, and often succeeds, but there are always a few that carry things through, and that is enough... If one is ready for them, they will find you, or you them...

Make more sense now?

Arsenios

[Aner]

George -

Can one be in Christ and NOT be in the church?

You seem to be implying that one can only gain entrance into Christ via the church. Which begins to smack of vaticanism.

Best,
Aner

[George Blaisdell]

George -

Can one be in Christ and NOT be in the church?

You seem to be implying that one can only gain entrance into Christ via the church. Which begins to smack of vaticanism.

Best,
Aner

We know where Christ is... We cannot say where He is not...

The visible Church is what Christ died to establish on the earth... Entry into this Body is by Baptism... It carries, to this day, the power of the Grace of the Holy Spirit of Pentecost... This is the Church we proclaim... What happens privately between God and those outside the Communion of this Church is between God and the party involved... Cornelius was a great example of what can happen with a person outside the Church - His prayers were heard at the Heavenly Throne of the most High God... And he ended up IN that Church, but God has Mercy on those whom He WILLS to have Mercy... And His Grace and Mercy are found in the Holy Communion of His visible and Apostolic Church... His Grace and Mercy are also found, as they were with Cornelius, outside this Body...

So we can only tell you that you CAN gain entry into Christ's Body by being Baptized into the Orthodox Faith... What ever you may have outside this Body is not ours to determine... We pray for all, inside and outside our Communion, daily and often... We pray for the world each service... We do not claim any monopoly on the Grace of God, nor should anyone...

Arsenios

[Aner]

OK - good enough. I would make the church both a little more and a little less extensive but I am good with your humility.

BTW - what texts are you unequivocally using to support your theory "Entry into this Body is by Baptism" (I think the vatican teaches this as well).

Best,
Aner

[George Blaisdell]

OK - good enough. I would make the church both a little more and a little less extensive but I am good with your humility.

BTW - what texts are you unequivocally using to support your theory "Entry into this Body is by Baptism" (I think the vatican teaches this as well).

Best,
Aner

We can unequivocally say that if you are within the Holy Communion of the Orthodox Church, then you are in the Body of Christ... But we simply cannot say that if you are within the congregation of Pastor Jack Black's Church of Christ on 23rd and Adams that you are NOT... We cannot judge another's servant...

My favorite text is where Christ asks Saul: "Why are you persecuting Me?" He didn't say "My followers..." And then Ananias asked Saul if he wanted him to give him the Holy Spirit, and he anointed his eyes, as scales came out of them, and he baptized him... So two things happened to Paul at the hands of Ananias: 1: He was anointed, and 2: He was baptized... The first gave him vision, and the second gave him the Holy Spirit...

Now Christ IN you, which IS the Mystery of the Faith of which Paul speaks, is the Holy Spirit acting for Christ...
You know the Scripture that tells us we are baptized into Christ's death...
And when Peter saw the "Pentecost of the Gentiles", where the descent of the Holy Spirit upon them resulted in them speaking in tongues, his question was: "How can we deny them the Laver?" remember?
So you then need but connect the dots, for if we are baptized into Christ's death, and those so baptized were members of the Body of Christ, and the Church IS the Body of Christ, as his question to Saul affirms, and the descent of the Holy Spirit upon the gentiles entitled them to be baptized into Christ's Body, the Church, you can see the matrix of meaning of Baptism shaping up in Scripture... Not to mention the Ethiopian eunich, who introduced Christianity to that country, following HIS Baptism...

You see, Biblically, Baptism IS entry into the Ekklessia, [Church], and the Church IS the Body of Christ, Who IS the Head of the Church His Body...
As well, the differentiation in the Bible between the Baptism of John and that of Christ indicates that John's baptism was unto repentance, so what is the difference between that baptism and Christ's Baptism? And the answer is: CHRIST!!! The first initiates you into repentance, and the second into Christ.

But the Church has always been visible... It is not a Spirit-only thing that is entered into by OUR actions... It is a God-man organism, of which we can become members, IF we conduct ourselves as members of the Household of God, and do indeed HOLD the Mystery of the Faith in a PURE Conscience... I mean, this is an AWESOME thing going on right here in River City! Actual MEMBERSHIP in the Body of the Creator of ALL creation from nothing! I mean WHY would anyone want to be ANY where ELSE???

But I wax rhetoric!

Arsenios

[robrecht]

...
My other battle is the on-going defense of evil that now reaches to the highest level - and that we would even begin to acquiesce to the thought of such behavior - much less come up some horrible philosophical prattle providing "understanding" to pedophilia (recent statement by the pontiff).

Rob

I appreciate your approach - I simply am deeply trouble by the inability to see and expose, rather than defend" evil....

Best,
Greg

Hi, Greg.

I certainly share your deep concern regarding the clergy abuse scandal. Horrible that such despicable priests were not brought to justice immediately.