Muhammad mentioned by name in the Song of Songs?

[Christian3]

here is a talk by a Catholic about his impressions/opinions on the Jesus of the Quran
...it is a different perspective than what I as a Muslim thinks the Quran is/might be saying....

the talk begins at 24:26
its by Klaus Von Stosch

Put what you want to convey in your own words. Thanks.

[Bibleuser]

[One Bad Pig]

"Jehovah" is a particularly inapt way to render the Tetragrammaton. It is a transliteration from Hebrew to Latin to German to English, and IIRC uses the vowel markings for "Adonai" which the Jews pronounced instead of the Tetragrammaton when reading.

[siam]

I respect that different Christianities may have different points of emphasis on various matters---As a Muslim, Tawheed (Shema) is a very important concept. Tawheed = God is One/Unique. Therefore, to understand Tawheed correctly means we should not be using "your" God/"my" God---but "our" God because there is only ONE God in existence---to divide God into yours/mine, true/false, or other criteria is to possibly fall into the error of "shirk"(division). Of the 2 conceptions of God, ----one that places emphasis on a "personal name" and one that encourages the use of a generic label,---I would commend the use of a generic label because it more easily expresses the idea of Tawheed---that all humanity worships the one God---the languages, cultures and paradigm in which the concepts of God are articulated differ.

Islam has "99 names" of God. The number 99 is used to keep the number open-ended so that there can be a thousand "names" of God. What is important is that there is only ONE God and that there is no power other than "The One God". Therefore all the blessings, trials, and destiny that all of humanity are given is from One God and none other. The various labels and names that human groups use as identity and the various languages used to express concepts of God do not invalidate that there is only One God---it only shows the diversity that human creativity produces. As the Quran explains---this diversity is "God's plan" because we grow in the practice of compassion and mercy through this diversity.

Muslims do not use the Torah or other books to validate the Quran/Islam. The criteria to use to know if the Quran is the word of God or man,--- is given by the Quran itself. If the Quran is indeed the word of God---then automatically the Prophet Muhammed is the messenger of God. (The word translated as "Prophet" does not mean "prophesy"/one who foretells---the Arabic word means "messenger"/one who is given revelation)

I do not come from a Jewish or Christian background/heritage so this verse (157) is simply one of many interesting verses of the Quran only. Perhaps it would hold more relevance if I had been Christian?....I don't know....

[Bibleuser]

I respect that different Christianities may have different points of emphasis on various matters---As a Muslim, Tawheed (Shema) is a very important concept. Tawheed = God is One/Unique. Therefore, to understand Tawheed correctly means we should not be using "your" God/"my" God---but "our" God because there is only ONE God in existence---to divide God into yours/mine, true/false, or other criteria is to possibly fall into the error of "shirk"(division). Of the 2 conceptions of God, ----one that places emphasis on a "personal name" and one that encourages the use of a generic label,---I would commend the use of a generic label because it more easily expresses the idea of Tawheed---that all humanity worships the one God---the languages, cultures and paradigm in which the concepts of God are articulated differ.

Islam has "99 names" of God. The number 99 is used to keep the number open-ended so that there can be a thousand "names" of God. What is important is that there is only ONE God and that there is no power other than "The One God". Therefore all the blessings, trials, and destiny that all of humanity are given is from One God and none other. The various labels and names that human groups use as identity and the various languages used to express concepts of God do not invalidate that there is only One God---it only shows the diversity that human creativity produces. As the Quran explains---this diversity is "God's plan" because we grow in the practice of compassion and mercy through this diversity.

Muslims do not use the Torah or other books to validate the Quran/Islam. The criteria to use to know if the Quran is the word of God or man,--- is given by the Quran itself. If the Quran is indeed the word of God---then automatically the Prophet Muhammed is the messenger of God. (The word translated as "Prophet" does not mean "prophesy"/one who foretells---the Arabic word means "messenger"/one who is given revelation)

I do not come from a Jewish or Christian background/heritage so this verse (157) is simply one of many interesting verses of the Quran only. Perhaps it would hold more relevance if I had been Christian?....I don't know....

MMMMMMM ......

If the Qur'an is the word of God then it MUST be it Total harmony with The Bible, it this is not the case then the Qur'an must be a fault!
Right

BU

[siam]

MMMMMMM ......

If the Qur'an is the word of God then it MUST be it Total harmony with The Bible, it this is not the case then the Qur'an must be a fault!
Right

BU

For this conclusion to work---one must start from the assumption that the "Christian" Bible IS the word of God. The Christian Bible is the OT and NT right?...If so, a Jew would disagree that the Christian Bible is the "word of God"...and some Jews do claim that Christians misinterpret many parts of the Torah.....

Christians have appropriated the Torah (OT) as their scripture so for Christians it is important to assume the Torah/OT---IS the word of God. However, we Muslims do not require the Torah/OT or the NT to be a part of our "scripture"/sacred texts....the Quran as the "word of God" is enough---it stands on its own. Therefore, unlike Christianity,---we do not begin with the same assumption about the Bible---this means your conclusion does not work.

But even if we were to start with the assumption that all of the Christian Bible is the "word of God" the question is --- which one? The Catholic or Protestant? The books of the Eastern Churches or Western Church? Peshitta, Diatessaron, or Ge'ez bible? .....

If one begins with the assumption that the Quran is the last "word of God" then it seems more appropriate to use the Quran as the standard for checking the truth of previous works?....

[Cerebrum123]

For this conclusion to work---one must start from the assumption that the "Christian" Bible IS the word of God. The Christian Bible is the OT and NT right?...If so, a Jew would disagree that the Christian Bible is the "word of God"...and some Jews do claim that Christians misinterpret many parts of the Torah.....

Christians have appropriated the Torah (OT) as their scripture so for Christians it is important to assume the Torah/OT---IS the word of God. However, we Muslims do not require the Torah/OT or the NT to be a part of our "scripture"/sacred texts....the Quran as the "word of God" is enough---it stands on its own. Therefore, unlike Christianity,---we do not begin with the same assumption about the Bible---this means your conclusion does not work.

But even if we were to start with the assumption that all of the Christian Bible is the "word of God" the question is --- which one? The Catholic or Protestant? The books of the Eastern Churches or Western Church? Peshitta, Diatessaron, or Ge'ez bible? .....

If one begins with the assumption that the Quran is the last "word of God" then it seems more appropriate to use the Quran as the standard for checking the truth of previous works?....

Not really since 1. The books themselves are the for the most part the same between Christian groups. There are some extra books, but all contain the same set core for their canon. 2. The Quran, Hadith, and Tafsir shows that Mohammed was commanded to check the Injeel and Torah to see if they lined up with the Quran, something he failed to do. We know he failed to do this because he never learned how ignorant he really was about how the Quran was not a confirmation of the Torah and Injeel as it claims to be. 3. The Quran takes the Injeel and Torah as authoritative, and 4. The Quran states that a Muslim must accept the Torah and Injeel as God's word.

By the way, which Quran interpretation should we use, Shia, Sunni, Ahmadiyya? Which of the 26 Arabic Qurans should we use? Warsh? Qalun? Hafs?

I wouldn't go with Hafs given he was considered unreliable for the purposes of isnad.

Source: Musnad Imam Ahmed ibn Hanbal

1268. It was narrated that 'Ali
(4=) said: The Messenger of Allah
Ots) said: "Whoever reads Qur'an
and learns it by heart, he will be
granted intercession for ten of his
family for whom Hell was due."

Comments: [Its isnad is da'eef jiddan
because of the weakness of 'Amr
bin Uthman and Hafs bin Abu
Umar al-Qari and Katheer bin
Zadhan is unknown]

© Copyright Original Source

[siam]

[QUOTE=Cerebrum123;508612]Not really since
1. The books themselves are the for the most part the same between Christian groups. There are some extra books, but all contain the same set core for their canon.
2. The Quran, Hadith, and Tafsir shows that Mohammed was commanded to check the Injeel and Torah to see if they lined up with the Quran, something he failed to do. We know he failed to do this because he never learned how ignorant he really was about how the Quran was not a confirmation of the Torah and Injeel as it claims to be.
3. The Quran takes the Injeel and Torah as authoritative, and
4. The Quran states that a Muslim must accept the Torah and Injeel as God's word.

By the way, which Quran interpretation should we use, Shia, Sunni, Ahmadiyya? Which of the 26 Arabic Qurans should we use? Warsh? Qalun? Hafs?

1. Since the various Christian bibles are not in complete "harmony" with each other---to ask the Quran to be "in harmony" would not be reasonable?
2. The Quran is addressed to a variety of audiences some of them are the "people of the book". The Quran specifies that the Prophet(pbuh) is "illiterate"---does not know scripture/cannot read...obviously checking of any previous scripture cannot be asked of him!!!---The Quran clarifies it is a confirmation of the Torah and the Injeel in those parts that hold the truth---not in those parts that have been corrupted. Personally I think this is a sensible approach---there is no need to repeat mistakes.
3. The Quran stands on its own. Muslims do not use any other sacred scripture (revelation).
4. The Quran also says that God has sent Guidance to all humanity (because ALL humanity is his creation)---not just the Jews. So far as I have looked, the sacred scriptures of others, like that of the Christians and Jews----also contains truth as well as error. I find echoes of the Quran in the Tao te Ching for example....but not just that---all of creation/nature/universe is also a revelation/a sign (ayah) from him.

So....which of God's signs (ayah) would you deny?

Interpretations/translations of the Quran are NOT the Quran---they are Tafsir. There is only 1 Quran.
There are many styles of reading the Quran as this is an art form. The written Quran (Uthmani codex) uses the Quraishi dialect (The tribe of the Prophet(pbuh)).

There are 2 English translations that I like---Marmaduke Pickthall and Yusuf ali and two English interpretations---Yusuf ali and Muhammed Asad. These attempts try to accurately convey the meaning of the Quran...but the beauty of the language is lost---one small attempt to show the literary beauty of the language in translation is done by Micheal Sells---it sacrifices precise meaning...but a glimpse of the poetic beauty of the Quran can be seen.

[Bibleuser]

For this conclusion to work---one must start from the assumption that the "Christian" Bible IS the word of God. The Christian Bible is the OT and NT right?...If so, a Jew would disagree that the Christian Bible is the "word of God"...and some Jews do claim that Christians misinterpret many parts of the Torah.....

Christians have appropriated the Torah (OT) as their scripture so for Christians it is important to assume the Torah/OT---IS the word of God. However, we Muslims do not require the Torah/OT or the NT to be a part of our "scripture"/sacred texts....the Quran as the "word of God" is enough---it stands on its own. Therefore, unlike Christianity,---we do not begin with the same assumption about the Bible---this means your conclusion does not work.

But even if we were to start with the assumption that all of the Christian Bible is the "word of God" the question is --- which one? The Catholic or Protestant? The books of the Eastern Churches or Western Church? Peshitta, Diatessaron, or Ge'ez bible? .....

If one begins with the assumption that the Quran is the last "word of God" then it seems more appropriate to use the Quran as the standard for checking the truth of previous works?....

all men of the things you have seen and heard.

That which come last must follow that which came first.
The Cart does not push the horse or the or the runner start from the finishing line!!

BU

[37818]

all men of the things you have seen and heard.

That which come last must follow that which came first.
The Cart does not push the horse or the or the runner start from the finishing line!!

BU

Respectfully, Old Testament and New Testament are renderings of Old Covenant and New Covenant (Jeremiah 31:31-34, Hebrews 8:8-12).

[Cerebrum123]

1. Since the various Christian bibles are not in complete "harmony" with each other---to ask the Quran to be "in harmony" would not be reasonable?
2. The Quran is addressed to a variety of audiences some of them are the "people of the book". The Quran specifies that the Prophet(pbuh) is "illiterate"---does not know scripture/cannot read...obviously checking of any previous scripture cannot be asked of him!!!---The Quran clarifies it is a confirmation of the Torah and the Injeel in those parts that hold the truth---not in those parts that have been corrupted. Personally I think this is a sensible approach---there is no need to repeat mistakes.
3. The Quran stands on its own. Muslims do not use any other sacred scripture (revelation).
4. The Quran also says that God has sent Guidance to all humanity (because ALL humanity is his creation)---not just the Jews. So far as I have looked, the sacred scriptures of others, like that of the Christians and Jews----also contains truth as well as error. I find echoes of the Quran in the Tao te Ching for example....but not just that---all of creation/nature/universe is also a revelation/a sign (ayah) from him.

So....which of God's signs (ayah) would you deny?

Interpretations/translations of the Quran are NOT the Quran---they are Tafsir. There is only 1 Quran.
There are many styles of reading the Quran as this is an art form. The written Quran (Uthmani codex) uses the Quraishi dialect (The tribe of the Prophet(pbuh)).

There are 2 English translations that I like---Marmaduke Pickthall and Yusuf ali and two English interpretations---Yusuf ali and Muhammed Asad. These attempts try to accurately convey the meaning of the Quran...but the beauty of the language is lost---one small attempt to show the literary beauty of the language in translation is done by Micheal Sells---it sacrifices precise meaning...but a glimpse of the poetic beauty of the Quran can be seen.

1. The Quran is not in harmony, even when looking only at the parts addressed to Muslims specifically. Early it calls for peace, later it calls for the murder of those who do not believe Islam, purely on the basis that they reject Islam

There would be a lot more if Uthman hadn't burned all of the competing codices from his time.

Edit. I snipped out the part of the quote that got scrambled in from one of my previous post. I hope I got all of it.

[Bibleuser]

Respectfully, Old Testament and New Testament are renderings of Old Covenant and New Covenant (Jeremiah 31:31-34, Hebrews 8:8-12).

True 2 covenants, but one text from start to finish, one story, one promise, one Christ, one God, one kingdom, one Bible.
So I don not hold to OT and NT is all one Testament.
BU

BU

[Bibleuser]

Song of Solomon 5:16 Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)

16 His mouth is sweetness.
He is absolutely desirable.
This is my love, and this is my friend,
young women of Jerusalem.

Muslims: Do you believe Muhammad's name appears in the Song of Songs?

Thank you.

The descendants of Ishmael, the Ishmaelites, are numbered among the enemies of Allah because as a nation the turned against Allah and his people the Israelites:-

Psalm 83:1-9
O God, let there be no silence on your part; Do not keep speechless, and do not stay quiet, O Divine One.
2 For, look! your very enemies are in an uproar; And the very ones intensely hating you have raised [their] head.
3 Against your people they cunningly carry on their confidential talk; And they conspire against your concealed ones.
4 They have said: "Come and let us efface them from being a nation, That the name of Israel may be remembered no more."
5 For with the heart they have unitedly exchanged counsel; Against you they proceeded to conclude even a covenant,
6 The tents of Edom and the ISHMAELITES, Moab and the Hagrites,
7 Gebal and Ammon and Amalek, Philistia together with the inhabitants of Tyre.
8 Also, Assyria itself has become joined with them; They have become an arm to the sons of Lot.
9 Do to them as to Midian, as to Sisera, As to Jabin at the torrent valley of Kishon*. ....
16 Fill their faces with dishonor, That people may search for your name, O Jehovah.
17 O may they be ashamed and be disturbed for all times, And may they become abashed and perish;
18 That people may know that you, whose name is Jehovah, You alone are the Most High over all the earth.

Vs. 9 *Which is to destroy them!

So why would God choose a man to be his prophet from a nation that the considered his enemy and was only fit for destruction?

BU

[siam]

all men of the things you have seen and heard.

That which come last must follow that which came first.
The Cart does not push the horse or the or the runner start from the finishing line!!

BU

One Testament?---perhaps our definition of one is different? Do not different Christianities have a different set of Bible (books)?, do'nt they also have books they have discarded so that these works are divided into Canon (authoritative) and apocrypha? It seems God's words that fit with what Christians want to believe are canon and those that do not fit are discarded? is this so?

The sacred text of the Jews is mainly the Torah (Tanakh/Talmud)...these include the "law"/mitzvot---yet, Christians have discarded this part of "God's words" claiming they no longer apply?...am I correct?
Most Jews do not recognize the Gospels and other "Christian" texts as "Gods words" and Christians also disregard some parts of Jewish sacred texts which they (Jews) regard as "God's words"?

[siam]

Respectfully, Old Testament and New Testament are renderings of Old Covenant and New Covenant (Jeremiah 31:31-34, Hebrews 8:8-12).

Is there a Noah covenant? I hear Christians discussing Noahide something?..Law?
How important is the "covenant" theme compared to other themes such as crucifixion, resurrection etc?
Is there an Adamic covenant?