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Muhammad mentioned by name in the Song of Songs?

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  • Originally posted by siam View Post

    Writings attributed to the Apostles circulated among the earliest Christian communities. The Pauline epistles were circulating, perhaps in collected forms, by the end of the 1st century AD.[a] Justin Martyr, in the mid 2nd century, mentions "memoirs of the apostles" as being read on "the day called that of the sun" (Sunday) alongside the "writings of the prophets." [3] A defined set of four gospels (the Tetramorph) was asserted by Irenaeus, c. 180, who refers to it directly.[4][5]

    By the early 3rd century, Origen may have been using the same twenty-seven books as in the present New Testament canon, though there were still disputes over the acceptance of the Letter to the Hebrews, James, II Peter, II John, III John, Jude and Revelation,[6] known as the Antilegomena. Likewise, the Muratorian fragment is evidence that, perhaps as early as 200, there existed a set of Christian writings somewhat similar to the twenty-seven-book NT canon, which included four gospels and argued against objections to them.[7] Thus, while there was a good measure of debate in the Early Church over the New Testament canon, the major writings are claimed to have been accepted by almost all Christians by the middle of the 3rd century.[8]

    In his Easter letter of 367, Athanasius, Bishop of Alexandria, gave a list of the books that would become the twenty-seven-book NT canon,[9] and he used the word "canonized" (Greek: κανονιζόμενα kanonizomena) in regards to them.[10][page needed] The first council that accepted the present canon of the New Testament may have been the Synod of Hippo Regius in North Africa (393). A brief summary of the acts was read at and accepted by the Councils of Carthage in 397 and 419.[11] These councils were under the authority of St. Augustine, who regarded the canon as already closed.[12][13][14] Pope Damasus I's Council of Rome in 382, if the Decretum Gelasianum is correctly associated with it, issued a biblical canon identical to that mentioned above,[9] or, if not, the list is at least a 6th-century compilation.[15] Likewise, Damasus' commissioning of the Latin Vulgate edition of the Bible, c. 383, was instrumental in the fixation of the canon in the West.[16] In c. 405, Pope Innocent I sent a list of the sacred books to a Gallic bishop, Exsuperius of Toulouse. Christian scholars assert that, when these bishops and councils spoke on the matter, however, they were not defining something new but instead "were ratifying what had already become the mind of the Church."[12][17][18]

    Thus, some claim that, from the 4th century, there existed unanimity in the West concerning the New Testament canon,[19] and that, by the 5th century, the Eastern Church, with a few exceptions, had come to accept the Book of Revelation and thus had come into harmony on the matter of the canon.[1][20] Nonetheless, full dogmatic articulations of the canon were not made until the Canon of Trent of 1546 for Roman Catholicism,[1] the Gallic Confession of Faith of 1559 for Calvinism, the Thirty-Nine Articles of 1563 for the Church of England, and the Synod of Jerusalem of 1672 for the Greek Orthodox.


    This would mean consensus on canonization more or less occurred in 4th century...right---In other words, there was no consensus yet before that?

    There is further info here in wiki---
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gospel

    In the immediate aftermath of Jesus' death his followers expected him to return at any moment, and certainly within their own lifetimes.[20] In consequence there was little motivation to write anything down for future generations, but as eyewitnesses began to die, and as the missionary needs of the church grew, there was an increasing demand and need for written versions of the founder's life and teachings.[20] The stages of this process can be summarised as follows:[21]

    .Oral traditions - stories and sayings passed on largely as separate self-contained units, and not in any chronological order;
    .Written collections of miracle stories, parables, sayings, etc., with oral tradition continuing alongside these;
    .Proto-gospels preceding and serving as sources for the written gospels - the dedicatory preface of Luke, for example, testifies to the existence of several previous accounts of the life of Jesus.[22]
    .Gospels formed by combining proto-gospels, written collections and still-current oral tradition.

    Given this history, it is almost certain that none of the four gospels were written by eye-witnesses.


    the same article from wiki says gospel means "good news".----The word gospel, meaning "good news" or "glad tidings", is derived from the Greek word εὐαγγέλιον, euangelion.[


    Gospel of Jesus---Is this the sayings of Jesus Christ....what some scholars call the Q source?
    "Starting in about 40 AD and continuing to about 90 AD, the eye-witnesses to the life of Jesus Christ, including Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Paul, James, Peter and Jude write the Gospels, letters and books that later become the New Testament. These authors quote from 31 books of the Old Testament, and widely circulate their material so that by about 150 AD, early Christians were referring to the set of writings as the New Covenant. During the 200s AD, the writings were translated into Latin, Coptic (Egypt) and Syriac (Syria) and widely disseminated. At this time, at least 21 of the writings were considered canonical. Thereafter, in 397 AD, the current 27 books of the New Testament were formally confirmed and canonized in the Synod of Carthage." allabouttruth.org

    Information on "Q" can be found here:

    http://www.markgoodacre.org/Q/ten.htm

    Comment


    • Originally posted by siam View Post
      interesting....I don't remember hearing this version, Can you elaborate more?
      On the second experience? It is recorded in 2 Corinthians
      "I must go on boasting. Although there is nothing to be gained, I will go on to visions and revelations from the Lord. I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven. Whether it was in the body or out of the body I do not know—God knows. And I know that this man—whether in the body or apart from the body I do not know, but God knows— was caught up to paradise and heard inexpressible things, things that no one is permitted to tell."
      This was written between 55-57 AD, he is addressing a group of professing Christians who doubt his credentials to be an apostle, and this is part of his argument for why people should listen to him, somewhere in the early 40's AD he was either taken physically to the third heaven (that is the heaven in which God dwells) or it was such a real vision that it felt physical, and that he was "in Christ" and was told things he was not permitted to share.

      It is one of the more unusual stories in the Bible because accounts about an individual's spirituality is rarely remarked upon, its usually about the corporate group of believers. This experience was definitely distinct from the original salvific one because that took place ~4 years after Jesus' Crucifixion.

      Unless you were asking for an elaboration of the other part of my post?
      Does he who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you do so by works of the law, or by hearing with faith? -Galatians 3:5

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Pentecost View Post
        In Ancient Greek, euangelion (gospel) was a technical term for victory in battle, it eventually gained association with the birth/coming of age/enthronement of a king (still prior to the coming of Jesus) and also his speeches. So then in Jesus both of the major understandings of the Hellenist term is found in that he defeated death and put to open shame the powers of darkness, and was the fulfillment of the promise for a future Davidic king. That's the Gospel of Jesus, that he was the Davidic King, that he had come to win victory in battle, which is why the Jews were waiting for an explicit violent uprising against the Romans, he was openly declaring himself to be the King of the Jews come to conquer, he did so in Luke 4 in a synagogue. The four gospels, Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John each contain this message.
        Could you elaborate on this part?

        The spiritual experience was interesting---there is a similar story of Prophet Muhammed (pbuh) also.

        Comment


        • answering Islam---Instead of copy/paste from answering Christianity---I would ask those interested to just go to the relevant websites and look things up yourself....

          The Quran is preserved well. I know this.
          There are many websites, videos and presentations that discuss this.
          Also....
          Many countries have national or international Quran recitation competitions. Many Muslims memorize the whole Arabic Quran---children and adults.
          https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intern...al_Competition
          http://www.straitstimes.com/singapor...on-competition
          Muslims have memorized the Arabic Quran since the time of the Prophet (pbuh).

          IMO, The Quran today can be traced back to the dictation of the Prophet (pbuh).....
          ....However,--- suppose we take the premise (standard today) that present preservation of the Quran can be traced back to Uthman (Uthmani codex), It is still a very early date compared to the NT.
          Uthman ibn Affan became leader around 644 CE-656 CE....(the death of the Prophet is around 632 CE) making it (Uthmani codex) around 20 years after the death of the Prophet(pbuh) and Uthman is also a companion of the Prophet---making him an "eye-witness".
          One could say, the Quran was "canonized" 20 years after the death of the Prophet not centuries later when a consensus was finally developed.
          (And even today---there is only one Arabic Quran which is the same regardless of if one is Sunni, Shia or Sufi....)

          ...but, even with a "consensus"---there are apparently different NT? KJV, NIV...etc? then there is the Alexandrian text type and the Byzantine text type and according to this wiki article the present NT is a mixture of these two?----"Most modern New Testaments are based on what is called "reasoned eclecticism", such as that of the Nestle-Aland 27, in formulating a Greek text. This invariably results in a text that is strongly Alexandrian in character."https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexandrian_text-type....
          ...not to mention...the Peshitta and the Diatessaron......!!??.....

          I don't understand all this stuff---but it seems to me that our definitions of "corruption" (distortion) of sacred texts differ? I don't have a problem with differing definitions or standards of "acceptable" distortions. We Muslims have our own standard and Christians need not agree with it as a guide to their own texts. But then, we Muslims are also not obligated to agree with the Christian standards either.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by siam View Post
            answering Islam---Instead of copy/paste from answering Christianity---I would ask those interested to just go to the relevant websites and look things up yourself....

            The Quran is preserved well. I know this.
            There are many websites, videos and presentations that discuss this.
            Also....
            Many countries have national or international Quran recitation competitions. Many Muslims memorize the whole Arabic Quran---children and adults.
            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intern...al_Competition
            http://www.straitstimes.com/singapor...on-competition
            Muslims have memorized the Arabic Quran since the time of the Prophet (pbuh).

            IMO, The Quran today can be traced back to the dictation of the Prophet (pbuh).....
            ....However,--- suppose we take the premise (standard today) that present preservation of the Quran can be traced back to Uthman (Uthmani codex), It is still a very early date compared to the NT.
            Uthman ibn Affan became leader around 644 CE-656 CE....(the death of the Prophet is around 632 CE) making it (Uthmani codex) around 20 years after the death of the Prophet(pbuh) and Uthman is also a companion of the Prophet---making him an "eye-witness".
            One could say, the Quran was "canonized" 20 years after the death of the Prophet not centuries later when a consensus was finally developed.
            (And even today---there is only one Arabic Quran which is the same regardless of if one is Sunni, Shia or Sufi....)

            ...but, even with a "consensus"---there are apparently different NT? KJV, NIV...etc? then there is the Alexandrian text type and the Byzantine text type and according to this wiki article the present NT is a mixture of these two?----"Most modern New Testaments are based on what is called "reasoned eclecticism", such as that of the Nestle-Aland 27, in formulating a Greek text. This invariably results in a text that is strongly Alexandrian in character."https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexandrian_text-type....
            ...not to mention...the Peshitta and the Diatessaron......!!??.....

            I don't understand all this stuff---but it seems to me that our definitions of "corruption" (distortion) of sacred texts differ? I don't have a problem with differing definitions or standards of "acceptable" distortions. We Muslims have our own standard and Christians need not agree with it as a guide to their own texts. But then, we Muslims are also not obligated to agree with the Christian standards either.
            I would say that Muslims have pretty much what was revealed to Muhammad.

            And, Christians can be assured that our manuscripts reveal what the original authors wrote.

            We have several translations, NIV, HCSB, ISV, etc. and the Qur'an also has several translations, Pickhall, Yusul, Shakir, Khan, etc.

            John 3:16Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)

            16 “For God loved the world in this way:[a] He gave His One and Only Son, so that everyone who believes in Him will not perish but have eternal life.

            John 3:16King James Version (KJV)

            16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

            John 3:16New International Version (NIV)

            16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

            Surah 4:157

            Yusuf Ali (Saudi Rev. 1985) That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-

            Dr. Laleh Bakhtiar and for their saying: We killed the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, the Messenger of God. And they killed him not, nor they crucified him. Rather, a likeness to him of another was shown to them. And, truly, those who were at variance in it are in uncertainty about it. There is no knowledge with them about it but they are pursuing an opinion. And they for certain killed him not.

            Muhammad Sarwar and their statement that they murdered Jesus, son of Mary, the Messenger of God, when, in fact, they could not have murdered him or crucified him. They, in fact, murdered someone else by mistake. Even those who disputed (the question of whether or not Jesus was murdered) did not have a shred of evidence. All that they knew about it was mere conjecture. They certainly could not have murdered Jesus.

            Dr. Mohammad Tahir-ul-Qadri And (also) because of their uttering (the boastful claim): ‘We (have) killed Allah’s Messenger, the Messiah, ‘Isa, the son of Maryam (Jesus, the son of Mary),’ whereas they neither killed nor crucified him. But (in truth) someone was made the like (of ‘Isa—Jesus) in their view. But those who disagree about him have surely fallen prey to doubt (concerning) this (murder). They know nothing (what the truth is) except (that they are) following fancy. And they certainly did not murder ‘Isa (Jesus).

            Comment


            • Originally posted by siam View Post
              Surah Al-Ikhlas (Purity) 112

              This is an early Meccan Surah---and its audience would have been the Meccan polytheists. The Meccan Supreme God had daughters and this Surah is teaching them about the concept of Tawheed (Unity)---One God.

              The "one" used here is "ahad" in Arabic (verse 1)---it connotes "unique" as opposed to a numerical one. (Hebrew = Echad)
              In the Arabic, the ending of the next verse rhymes with the ending of the first---the word is "Samad" In the Tafsir of Yusuf Ali, 2 understanding of this word is given 1) All "existence" except that of God is temporal/conditional 2) God is independent---but all creation is dependent on God.

              the 3rd verse clearly restates the concept of "one" (Ahad) means there are no offspring/Parents (neither sons nor daughters nor Father nor Mother) of God.

              and the 4rth verse restates that "ahad" connotes Uniqueness---"there is none like unto him"

              The core essence of Islam is explained in 4 poetic verses using words of profound meaning as well as pleasant sound.
              1. Deuteronomy 4:35,39 — Unto thee it was shown, that thou mightest know that the LORD he is God; there is none else beside him. (39) Know therefore this day, and consider it in thine heart, that the LORD he is God in heaven above, and upon the earth beneath: there is none else.

              2. Deuteronomy 6:4 — Hear, O Israel: The LORD thy God is one LORD.

              3. Deuteronomy32:39 — See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand.

              4. 2 Samuel 7:22 — Wherefore thou art great, O LORD God; for there is none like thee, neither is there any God beside thee, according to all that we have heard with our ears.

              5. 1 Kings 8:60 — That all the people of the earth may know that the LORD is God, and that there is none else.

              6. 2 KINGS 5:15 — And he returned to the man of God, he and all his company, and came, and stood before him: and he said, Behold, now I know that there is no God in all the earth, but in Israel; now therefore, I pray thee, take a blessing of thy servant.

              7. 2 Kings 19:15 — And Hezekiah prayed before the LORD, and said, O LORD God of Israel, which dwellest between the cherubims, thou art the God, even thou alone, of all the kingdoms of the earth; thou hast made heaven and earth.

              8. 1 Chronicles 17:20 — O LORD, there is none like thee, neither is there any God beside thee, according to all that we have heard with our ears.

              9. Nehemiah 9:6 — Thou, even thou, art LORD alone; thou has made heaven, the heaven of heavens, with all their host, the earth, and all things that are therein, the seas, and all that is therein, and thou preservest them all; and the host of heaven worshippeth thee.

              10. Psalm 18:31 — For who is God save the LORD? or who is a rock save our God?

              11. Psalm 86:10 — For thou art great, and doest wondrous things: thou art God alone.

              12. Isaiah 37:16,20 — O LORD of hosts, God of Israel, that dwellest between the cherubims, thou art the God, even thou alone, of all the kingdoms of the earth: thou has made heaven and earth. (20) Now therefore, O LORD our God, save us from his hand, that all the kingdoms of the earth may know that thou art the LORD, even thou only.

              13. Isaiah43:10,11 — Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he:before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no savior.

              14. Isaiah44:6,8 — Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.Fear ye not, neither be afraid; have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.

              15. Isaiah 45:21 — Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time: who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Savior; there is none beside me.

              16. Isaiah 46:9 — For I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me.

              17. Hosea 13:4 — Yet I am the LORD thy God from the land of Egypt, and thou shalt know no god but me; for there is no savior beside me.

              18. Joel 2:27 — And ye shall know that I am in the midst of Israel, and that I am the LORD your God, and none else: and my people shall never be ashamed.

              19. Zechariah 14:9 — And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one Lord, and his name one.

              20. Mark 12:29-34 —And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord: And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment. And the second is like, namely this, thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these. And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he: And to love him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the soul, and with all the strength, and to love his neighbor as himself, is more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices. And when Jesus saw that he answered discreetly, he said unto him, Thou art not far from the kingdom of God. And no man after that durst ask him any question.

              21. John 17:3 — And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

              22. Romans 3:30 — Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.

              23. 1 Corinthians 8:4-6 — As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, andthat there is none other God but one. For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,) But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

              24. Galatians 3:20 — Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one.

              25. Ephesians 4:6 — One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

              26. 1 Timothy 1:17 — Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.

              27. 1 Timothy 2:5 — For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.

              28. James 2:19 — Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

              You said:

              The "one" used here is "ahad" in Arabic (verse 1)---it connotes "unique" as opposed to a numerical one. (Hebrew = Echad)

              Do I understand you correctly that "ahad" is like "echad"?
              Last edited by Christian3; 05-22-2017, 10:33 AM.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Christian3 View Post
                I would say that Muslims have pretty much what was revealed to Muhammad.

                And, Christians can be assured that our manuscripts reveal what the original authors wrote.

                We have several translations, NIV, HCSB, ISV, etc. and the Qur'an also has several translations, Pickhall, Yusul, Shakir, Khan, etc.
                The Arabic Quran is not a translation but the original revelation in the language it was revealed---therefore, the standard required for verification and preservation is high (as it should be) The standard for translations which are understood as "Tafsir" (interpretations/exegesis) do not need to be high at all as it is a man-made work ---not revelation from God.

                If the NT is understood as Tafsir from a Muslim perspective, then the same high standards used for the evaluation of the Quran need not apply to the NT. In a Tafsir---the opinions, biases and interpretations of the translator comes through. Likewise, if we assume that a gospel is the perspective of the particular author---such as Luke in the Gospel of Luke----then it can be understood as an interpretation (tafsir) and people can have agreements or disagreements/differences of opinion on it.

                The Quran therefore, agrees with much in the previous scriptures but also disagrees with some ideas/perspectives of the previous scriptures. For example, the "chosen people" idea is something the Quran disagrees with. ---another is the idea that the Jews killed Prophet Jesus (pbuh). disagreement with both these concepts is sensible and pragmatic within the Islamic frame-work/paradigm. For example, the Abrahamic religions proclaim equality (of humanity)---yet this ethical-moral value is contradicted with the idea of a "chosen people" with special entitlements/privileges from God. Thus, removing this error strengthens and simplifies the very important concept of the inherent equality of all humanity---which is an essential step in understanding the Justice, Compassion and Mercy of God.
                Likewise, Jesus Christ is the true messenger of God, therefore, if God chooses to save him, as he saved Prophet Abraham from the fire---he can do so. This answers any Jewish claim that Jesus Christ is a false Prophet. Since neither Judaism nor Islam have "original sin" this is a sensible/prudent position from an Islamic/Quranic framework.

                In Christianity, the concept of human nature is that it is sinful (because of original sin)---In Judaism and Islam---human nature is created/inherently good---but it has the potential (choice) for both good and bad. In Judaism there are two terms for this state---Yetzer hara (bad) and Yester hatov (good). There is a somewhat similar concept in the Quran (there are 3 degrees/levels of the soul) Nafs al amarra, (egoic) nafs al lawama (transegoic) and nafs al mutmainna (peaceful, enlightened)

                Comment


                • Do I understand you correctly that "ahad" is like "echad"?

                  ----Arabic and Hebrew are sister languages (as is Aramaic) so there are similarities. The Hebrew word Echad as used in the Hebrew scripture as a range of meanings that the Arabic does not have---such as a numerical one (Hebrew)---but the Hebrew "echad" also has meanings that overlap with the Arabic (Quranic) "ahad" such as Uniqueness, Undivided One, Unity.

                  here is one perspective---
                  http://www.hebrew-streams.org/works/hebrew/echad.html
                  Last edited by siam; 05-23-2017, 12:28 AM.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by siam View Post
                    Do I understand you correctly that "ahad" is like "echad"?

                    ----Arabic and Hebrew are sister languages (as is Aramaic) so there are similarities. The Hebrew word Echad as used in the Hebrew scripture as a range of meanings that the Arabic does not have---such as a numerical one (Hebrew)---but the Hebrew "echad" also has meanings that overlap with the Arabic (Quranic) "ahad" such as Uniqueness, Undivided One, Unity.

                    here is one perspective---
                    http://www.hebrew-streams.org/works/hebrew/echad.html
                    You should read the following links:

                    There is not a single verse anywhere in the Bible that clearly or directly states that God is an absolute unity.

                    https://jewsforjesus.org/publication...d-the-trinity/

                    http://www.bible.ca/trinity/trinity-...d-vs-echad.htm

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by siam View Post

                      The Quran therefore, agrees with much in the previous scriptures but also disagrees with some ideas/perspectives of the previous scriptures. For example, the "chosen people" idea is something the Quran disagrees with.
                      2:47

                      Literal
                      (Word by Word) O Children (of) Israel! Remember My Favor which I bestowed upon you and that I [I] preferred you over the worlds.

                      Originally posted by siam View Post


                      ---another is the idea that the Jews killed Prophet Jesus (pbuh).
                      The Jews didn't kill Jesus; the Romans did. The Jews wanted Jesus dead, but did not have the authority to put Him to death.

                      To deny that Jesus died and rose from the dead, as you believe the Qur'an says, would be like destroying about 75% of the New Testament with one verse in the Qur'an.

                      And, your claim makes Jesus a false prophet and a liar.

                      Matthew 12:40 - 'For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the son of man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.'

                      Matthew 17:9 - As they were coming down the mountain, Jesus instructed them, 'Don't tell anyone what you have seen, until the son of man has been raised from the dead.'

                      Matthew 17:22,23 - When they came together in Galilee, he said to them, 'the son of man is going to be betrayed into the hands of men. They will kill him, and on the third day he will be raised to life.' And the disciples were filled with grief.

                      Matthew 20:18,19 - 'We are going up to Jerusalem, and the son of man will be betrayed to the chief priests and the teachers of the law. They will condemn him to death and will turn him over to the Gentiles to be mocked and flogged and crucified. On the third day he will be raised to life!'

                      Matthew 20:28 - '...The son of man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.'

                      Matthew 26:2 - 'As you know, the Passover is two days away - and the son of man will be handed over to be crucified.'

                      Matthew 26:45 - Then he returned to the disciples and said to them, 'Are you still sleeping and resting? Look, the hour is near, and the son of man is betrayed into the hands of sinners.'

                      Mark 8:31 - He then began to teach them that the son of man must suffer many things and be rejected by the elders, chief priests and teachers of the law, and that he must be killed and after three days rise again.

                      Mark 9:31 - He said to them, 'the son of man is going to be betrayed into the hands of men. They will kill him, and after three days he will rise.'

                      Mark 10:33,34 - 'We are going up to Jerusalem,' he said, 'and the son of man will be betrayed to the chief priests and teachers of the law. They will condemn him to death and will hand him over to the Gentiles, who will mock him and spit on him, flog him and kill him. Three days later he will rise.'

                      Luke 9:22 - And he said, 'the son of man must suffer many things and be rejected by the elders, chief priests and teachers of the law, and he must be killed and on the third day be raised to life.'

                      Luke 18:31-33 - Jesus took the Twelve aside and told them, 'We are going up to Jerusalem, and everything that is written by the prophets about the son of man will be fulfilled. He will be handed over to the Gentiles. They will mock him, insult him, spit on him, flog him and kill him. On the third day he will rise again.'

                      By implication Jesus called your Allah Satan:

                      Matthew 16:

                      21 From that time on Jesus began to explain to his disciples that he must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things at the hands of the elders, the chief priests and the teachers of the law, and that he must be killed and on the third day be raised to life.

                      22 Peter took him aside and began to rebuke him. “Never, Lord!” he said. “This shall never happen to you!”

                      23 Jesus turned and said to Peter, “Get behind me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to me; you do not have in mind the concerns of God, but merely human concerns.”

                      Originally posted by siam View Post

                      Since neither Judaism nor Islam have "original sin" this is a sensible/prudent position from an Islamic/Quranic framework.
                      I have shown you the Qur'an does have the concept of "original sin." I also gave you a definition of "original sin" by a Rabbi.

                      Originally posted by siam View Post

                      In Christianity, the concept of human nature is that it is sinful (because of original sin)---In Judaism and Islam---human nature is created/inherently good---but it has the potential (choice) for both good and bad. In Judaism there are two terms for this state---Yetzer hara (bad) and Yester hatov (good). There is a somewhat similar concept in the Quran (there are 3 degrees/levels of the soul) Nafs al amarra, (egoic) nafs al lawama (transegoic) and nafs al mutmainna (peaceful, enlightened)
                      We are not sinful because of original sin. We are sinful because we sin.

                      Jews say they don't believe in "original sin" but they admit that we all sin and no one has been able to keep from sinning and trace this sad fact back to the fall of Adam and Eve.

                      Comment


                      • jewsforjesus website has a counterpart jewsforjudaism which refutes those claims.

                        http://j4j.me/
                        https://www.youtube.com/user/JewsforJudaismCanada


                        For Muslims, God is One (Unique, Undivided, Unity)---the Quran makes it clear....the concept itself is pretty straightforward and simple.

                        Crucifixion and its symbolism may be important for Christianity---but it does not fit the Islamic world-view (or the Jewish one either) ---and as I explained many times already---trying to fit it in simply does not work.

                        All creation (comes from God and will return to God)---including humanity---was created inherently good, God forgives whomever he pleases, whenever he pleases, God created Adamic/human nature exactly as he required for his purpose, whatever errors we make in our life are our own responsibility and no one else is to blame nor can the responsibility for our choices be put onto someone else. It is God that has given humanity the capacity for choice (limited free-will) and the ability to choose good/bad (intelligence)---to exercise this choice is the reason we are on Earth.....(to choose to submit to God's will of our own accord). Each individual's time on Earth, and the circumstances they find themselves, is determined according to God's will and it is a Test---the answer/result will be shown on Judgement day. (....The souls will be destined for heaven/hell and, possibly, at some point---all creation, which has come from God, will return to God.)

                        In the above paradigm, there is no place to fit in the convoluted and confusing Christian doctrine of "sacrifice of "son of God" --- for the sin nature of humanity"....

                        Chosen people---The Quran uses the word chosen for the children of Israel as well as for the Prophets. If the concept of Tawheed is understood correctly---it means all humanity is inherently equal---none superior or inferior to the other. Therefore, the Prophets are equal in their humanness---neither superior nor inferior to any other Prophet/human.....likewise one group of humans are not superior/inferior to another. However, their circumstances may be different. When God "chooses" a group or individual for guidance--it means God has bestowed blessings and with these blessings comes a commensurate degree of responsibility. The responsibility to live by that guidance and to teach others. Likewise, if God has blessed someone with wealth, then there is an equal degree of responsibility to share that wealth, if God has blessed someone with strength then there is the commensurate responsibility to use it to protect the weak...etc....The inversion is also true---those who have been given less, have less commensurate responsibility.

                        The one exception to the above rule is piety. (piety=spirituality, love of God). This is a quality that is worthy of respect and admiration and those who posses it are the ones who please God. For Muslims, Prophets are those who have this quality. ...and one good example of an individual/Prophet who posses this quality is Prophet Jesus (pbuh).

                        "The Jews didn't kill Jesus'---As a Muslim, I agree.
                        "We are not sinful because of original sin. We are sinful because we sin."--- Agree....especially if "because" is changed to "when"...
                        "we all sin'---agree. To err is human and it is a consequence we must shoulder for having the right to make choices. Some of our choices will inevitably be an error---when we make mistakes, we should repent because God forgives those who repent.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by siam View Post
                          jewsforjesus website has a counterpart jewsforjudaism which refutes those claims.

                          http://j4j.me/
                          https://www.youtube.com/user/JewsforJudaismCanada


                          For Muslims, God is One (Unique, Undivided, Unity)---the Quran makes it clear....the concept itself is pretty straightforward and simple.

                          Crucifixion and its symbolism may be important for Christianity---but it does not fit the Islamic world-view (or the Jewish one either) ---and as I explained many times already---trying to fit it in simply does not work.

                          All creation (comes from God and will return to God)---including humanity---was created inherently good, God forgives whomever he pleases, whenever he pleases, God created Adamic/human nature exactly as he required for his purpose, whatever errors we make in our life are our own responsibility and no one else is to blame nor can the responsibility for our choices be put onto someone else. It is God that has given humanity the capacity for choice (limited free-will) and the ability to choose good/bad (intelligence)---to exercise this choice is the reason we are on Earth.....(to choose to submit to God's will of our own accord). Each individual's time on Earth, and the circumstances they find themselves, is determined according to God's will and it is a Test---the answer/result will be shown on Judgement day. (....The souls will be destined for heaven/hell and, possibly, at some point---all creation, which has come from God, will return to God.)

                          In the above paradigm, there is no place to fit in the convoluted and confusing Christian doctrine of "sacrifice of "son of God" --- for the sin nature of humanity"....

                          Chosen people---The Quran uses the word chosen for the children of Israel as well as for the Prophets. If the concept of Tawheed is understood correctly---it means all humanity is inherently equal---none superior or inferior to the other. Therefore, the Prophets are equal in their humanness---neither superior nor inferior to any other Prophet/human.....likewise one group of humans are not superior/inferior to another. However, their circumstances may be different. When God "chooses" a group or individual for guidance--it means God has bestowed blessings and with these blessings comes a commensurate degree of responsibility. The responsibility to live by that guidance and to teach others. Likewise, if God has blessed someone with wealth, then there is an equal degree of responsibility to share that wealth, if God has blessed someone with strength then there is the commensurate responsibility to use it to protect the weak...etc....The inversion is also true---those who have been given less, have less commensurate responsibility.

                          The one exception to the above rule is piety. (piety=spirituality, love of God). This is a quality that is worthy of respect and admiration and those who posses it are the ones who please God. For Muslims, Prophets are those who have this quality. ...and one good example of an individual/Prophet who posses this quality is Prophet Jesus (pbuh).

                          "The Jews didn't kill Jesus'---As a Muslim, I agree.
                          "We are not sinful because of original sin. We are sinful because we sin."--- Agree....especially if "because" is changed to "when"...
                          "we all sin'---agree. To err is human and it is a consequence we must shoulder for having the right to make choices. Some of our choices will inevitably be an error---when we make mistakes, we should repent because God forgives those who repent.

                          Your Jews for Judaism video was not about the topic we were discussing. It was about trying to convert Jews to Christianity. I would think the video would be a problem for Muslims too since Islam says that Jesus is the Messiah and the video says Jesus was not the Messiah. As I said before the author of the Qur’an did not seem to know what being the Messiah meant.

                          Of course we were created good, no one is saying we weren’t. But, sooner or later we will make the choice to disobey God – to sin. Of course we are responsible for our own sins.

                          When we sin, we sin against God. We cannot forgive our own sins against God; only God can and that is what God did at the cross.

                          The Jews being God’s chosen people does not mean they are better than anyone else.

                          “For you are a holy people to the LORD your God; the LORD your God has chosen you to be a people for Himself, a special treasure above all the peoples on the face of the earth. The LORD did not set His love on you nor choose you because you were more in number than any other people, for you were the least of all peoples; but because the LORD loves you, and because He would keep the oath which He swore to your fathers, the LORD has brought you out with a mighty hand, and redeemed you from the house of bondage, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt” Deuteronomy 7:6-8

                          Why the Jews? Because through the Jews God promised Abraham that through him all people would be blessed. The covenant when through Isaac.

                          God’s purpose in choosing Israel was for them to be a model nation to other nations and that through them “all the families of the earth” would be blessed (Genesis 12:3). He wanted Israel to be “a kingdom of priests and a holy nation” (Exodus 19:6). Other nations would see that when the Israelites obeyed God, they were blessed (verse 5), and when they disobeyed God, they would be punished (Deuteronomy 28). (lifehopeandtruth.)

                          God chose Israel because the Messiah would come through the Jews as Jesus said: “ salvation is of the Jews.” Notice Jesus did not say salvation if FOR the Jews – for Jews only.

                          Jesus did for Israel what Israel could not do. God’s purpose for choosing Israel was fulfilled by the Jew, Jesus.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by siam View Post

                            "The Jews didn't kill Jesus'---As a Muslim, I agree.
                            Are you saying that you believe Jesus did die, but the Jews did not kill Jesus?

                            If you still don't believe Jesus was crucified and died, then take us through it step by step starting with the capture of Jesus.

                            Was Jesus captured?

                            Was Jesus put on trial by the Romans?

                            Was Jesus beaten, etc."

                            Thank you.
                            Last edited by Christian3; 05-24-2017, 08:54 AM.

                            Comment


                            • explaining Echad
                              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ak74TpPCsHs

                              explaining one version of the chosen people idea...
                              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pbFEgr2kRzw


                              "Of course we were created good, no one is saying we weren’t. But, sooner or later we will make the choice to disobey God – to sin. Of course we are responsible for our own sins.
                              When we sin, we sin against God." ---I can agree with a caveat....

                              ---There is a Christian doctrine called Total Depravity? wiki says---
                              "Total depravity (also called radical corruption or pervasive depravity) is a theological doctrine derived from the Augustinian concept of original sin. It is the teaching that, as a consequence of the Fall of Man, every person born into the world is enslaved to the service of sin as a result of their fallen nature and, apart from the efficacious or prevenient grace of God, is utterly unable to choose to follow God, refrain from evil, or accept the gift of salvation as it is offered."

                              I am glad to know that there are Christians who believe the same as Jews and Muslims, that humanity is created inherently good. That we have the choice to submit to God's will or rebel. Jesus Christ is a good example of "one who submits to God's will" (= muslim).

                              When human beings make mistakes (sin), such as stealing for example, there is an element that is a crime against another human as well as a crime against God. In Islamic ethical principles, the ownership of property/wealth is a God-given right. Thus a person who steals from another has actually committed 2 crimes, one against another human being by infringing on a right and another against God who gave the right to humanity. Forgiveness or punishment for a crime/mistake a person commits against another person is a human affair to be dealt with human Justice. Forgiveness for mistakes committed against God is a divine prerogative to be dealt with divine Justice. Not all human errors/sin have this duality---some crimes/mistakes are only human affairs---some are only for God to decide---for example, when a person makes partners to the One God---this is an error in belief and God has the right to decide to forgive or not---but it is not a crime against another person, and so, has nothing to do with human justice.

                              the cross---from a Muslim perspective, God does not need a cross to forgive---he does as he wills whenever he wills.

                              ....will reply to other points when I get the time---

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Christian3 View Post
                                Are you saying that you believe Jesus did die, but the Jews did not kill Jesus?

                                If you still don't believe Jesus was crucified and died, then take us through it step by step starting with the capture of Jesus.

                                Was Jesus captured?

                                Was Jesus put on trial by the Romans?

                                Was Jesus beaten, etc."

                                Thank you.
                                The generally accepted idea within Islam is substitution---that it was not Jesus Christ. As to what actually happened to Messiah Jesus is known to God---this is what the Quran has to say---

                                Quran 4:157

                                Sahih International: And [for] their saying, "Indeed, we have killed the Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, the messenger of Allah." And they did not kill him, nor did they crucify him; but [another] was made to resemble him to them. And indeed, those who differ over it are in doubt about it. They have no knowledge of it except the following of assumption. And they did not kill him, for certain.

                                Pickthall: And because of their saying: We slew the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, Allah's messenger - they slew him not nor crucified him, but it appeared so unto them; and lo! those who disagree concerning it are in doubt thereof; they have no knowledge thereof save pursuit of a conjecture; they slew him not for certain.

                                Yusuf Ali: That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-



                                and Quran 3: 55

                                Sahih International: [Mention] when Allah said, "O Jesus, indeed I will take you and raise you to Myself and purify you from those who disbelieve and make those who follow you [in submission to Allah alone] superior to those who disbelieve until the Day of Resurrection. Then to Me is your return, and I will judge between you concerning that in which you used to differ.

                                Pickthall: (And remember) when Allah said: O Jesus! Lo! I am gathering thee and causing thee to ascend unto Me, and am cleansing thee of those who disbelieve and am setting those who follow thee above those who disbelieve until the Day of Resurrection. Then unto Me ye will (all) return, and I shall judge between you as to that wherein ye used to differ.

                                Yusuf Ali: Behold! Allah said: "O Jesus! I will take thee and raise thee to Myself and clear thee (of the falsehoods) of those who blaspheme; I will make those who follow thee superior to those who reject faith, to the Day of Resurrection: Then shall ye all return unto me, and I will judge between you of the matters wherein ye dispute.


                                ...therefore God "took him" to himself---and it is generally believed that Jesus Christ will come again (2nd coming?)....
                                For Muslims---the details of the situation are not important, instead, what is important is that the Jews did not kill him. That which the Quran does not elaborate on...is simply speculative and so, no opinion need be formed on it.

                                Comment

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