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Muhammad mentioned by name in the Song of Songs?

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  • Originally posted by siam View Post
    here is a talk by a Catholic about his impressions/opinions on the Jesus of the Quran
    ...it is a different perspective than what I as a Muslim thinks the Quran is/might be saying....

    the talk begins at 24:26
    its by Klaus Von Stosch

    Put what you want to convey in your own words. Thanks.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by siam View Post
      Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) in the Old Testament:

      The Qur’an mentions in Surah Al-Araf chapter 7 verse 157:

      "Those who follow the Messenger, the unlettered Prophet, whom they find mentioned in their own (scriptures) in the law and the Gospel".


      1.
      MUHAMMAD (PBUH) PROPHESISED IN THE BOOK OF DEUTERONOMY:


      Almighty God speaks to Moses in Book of Deuteronomy chapter 18 verse 18:

      "I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and I will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him."

      The Christians say that this prophecy refers to Jesus (pbuh) because Jesus (pbuh) was like Moses (pbuh). Moses (pbuh) was a Jew, as well as Jesus (pbuh) was a Jew. Moses (pbuh) was a Prophet and Jesus (pbuh) was also a Prophet.

      If these two are the only criteria for this prophecy to be fulfilled, then all the Prophets of the Bible who came after
      Moses (pbuh) such as Solomon, Isaiah, Ezekiel, Daniel, Hosea, Joel, Malachi, John the Baptist, etc. (pbut) will
      fulfill this prophecy since all were Jews as well as prophets.

      However, it is Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) who is like Moses (pbuh):


      i)

      Both had a father and a mother, while Jesus (pbuh) was born miraculously without any male intervention.

      [Mathew 1:18 and Luke 1:35 and also Al-Qur'an 3:42-47]


      ii)
      Both were married and had children. Jesus (pbuh) according to the Bible did not marry nor had children.

      iii)
      Both died natural deaths. Jesus (pbuh) has been raised up alive. (4:157-158)


      Muhammad (pbuh) is from among the brethren of Moses (pbuh). Arabs are brethren of Jews. Abraham (pbuh) had two sons: Ishmail and Isaac (pbut). The Arabs are the descendants of Ishmail (pbuh) and the Jews are the descendants of Isaac (pbuh).

      Words in the mouth:

      Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) was unlettered and whatever revelations he received from Almighty God he repeated them verbatim.

      "I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him."

      [Deuteronomy 18:18]


      iv)
      Both besides being Prophets were also kings i.e. they could inflict capital punishment. Jesus (pbuh) said, "My kingdom is not of this world." (John 18:36).

      v)
      Both were accepted as Prophets by their people in their lifetime but Jesus (pbuh) was rejected by his
      people. John chapter 1 verse 11 states, "He came unto his own, but his own received him not."

      iv)
      Both brought new laws and new regulations for their people. Jesus (pbuh) according to the Bible did not bring any new laws. (Mathew 5:17-18).

      2.
      It is Mentioned in the book of Deuteronomy chapter 18:19


      "And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not harken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him."


      3.
      Muhammad (pbuh) is prophesised in the book of Isaiah:


      It is mentioned in the book of Isaiah chapter 29 verse 12:

      "And the book is delivered to him that is not learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I am not learned."

      When Archangel Gabrail commanded Muhammad (pbuh) by saying Iqra - "Read", he replied, "I am not learned".


      4.
      prophet Muhammad (pbuh) mentioned by name in the old testament:


      Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) is mentioned by name in the Song of Solomon chapter 5 verse 16:

      "Hikko Mamittakim we kullo Muhammadim Zehdoodeh wa Zehraee Bayna Jerusalem."

      "His mouth is most sweet: yea, he is altogether lovely. This is my beloved, and this is my friend, O daughters
      of Jerusalem."

      In the Hebrew language im is added for respect. Similarely im is added after the name of Prophet Muhammad
      (pbuh) to make it Muhammadim. In English translation they have even translated the name of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) as "altogether lovely", but in the Old Testament in Hebrew, the name of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) is yet present.


      Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) in the New Testament:

      Al-Qur'an Chapter 61 Verse 6:

      "And remember, Jesus, the son of Mary, said, 'O Children of Israel! I am the messenger of Allah (sent) to you, confirming the Law (which came) before me and giving glad tidings of a messenger to come after me, whose name shall be Ahmed.' But when he came to them with clear signs, they said, 'This is evident sorcery!' "

      All the prophecies mentioned in the Old Testament regarding Muhammad (pbuh) besides applying to the Jews also hold good for the Christians.


      1.
      John chapter 14 verse 16:
      "And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you forever."

      2.
      Gospel of John chapter 15 verse 26:

      "But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which
      proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me."

      3.
      Gospel of John chapter 16 verse 7:


      "Nevertheless I tell you the truth; it is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not
      come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you".

      "Ahmed" or "Muhammad" meaning "the one who praises" or "the praised one" is almost the translation of the
      Greek word Periclytos. In the Gospel of John 14:16, 15:26, and 16:7. The word 'Comforter' is used in the English translation for the Greek word Paracletos which means advocate or a kind friend rather than a comforter.
      Paracletos is the warped reading for Periclytos. Jesus (pbuh) actually prophesised Ahmed by name. Even the
      Greek word Paraclete refers to the Prophet (pbuh) who is a mercy for all creatures.

      Some Christians say that the Comforter mentioned in these prophecies refers to the Holy Sprit. They fail to realise
      that the prophecy clearly says that only if Jesus (pbuh) departs will the Comforter come. The Bible states that the
      Holy Spirit was already present on earth before and during the time of Jesus (pbuh), in the womb of Elizabeth, and again when Jesus (pbuh) was being baptised, etc. Hence this prophecy refers to none other than Prophet
      Muhammad (pbuh).


      4.
      Gospel of John chapter 16 verse 12-14:

      "I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth is
      come, he will guide you unto all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me".

      The Sprit of Truth, spoken about in this prophecy referes to none other than Prophet Muhammad (pbuh)
      NOTE: All quotations of the Bible are taken from the King James Version.

      ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
      The verse in the Quran that mentions this:---Surah 7, verse 156, 157

      156. "And ordain for us that which is good, in this life and in the Hereafter: for we have turned unto Thee." He said: "With My punishment I visit whom I will; but My mercy extends to all things. That (mercy) I shall ordain for those who do right, and practice regular charity, and those who believe in Our signs;-

      157. "Those who follow the messenger, the unlettered Prophet, whom they find mentioned in their own (scriptures),- in the law and the Gospel;- for he commands them what is just and forbids them what is evil; he allows them as lawful what is good (and pure) and prohibits them from what is bad (and impure); He releases them from their heavy burdens and from the yokes that are upon them. So it is those who believe in him, honour him, help him, and follow the light which is sent down with him,- it is they who will prosper."

      --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
      Personally, I am neutral when it comes to such things---since my belief in Islam as "my way" is based on other criteria....
      WHAT IS THE “NAME” OF GOD MENTIONED AT DEUTERONOMEY 18:19?


      The following is an explanation of what is said about Deuteronomy 18:19 in the book ‘A Brief Illustrated Guide To Understanding Islam’ on page 35 under the heading “A prophet like Moses” which reads:-

      “Note that God has said in the prophecy of Deuteronomy: “If anyone does not listen to my words that the prophet speaks in my name, I myself will call him to account.” (Deuteronomy, 18:19). This means that however believes in the Bible must believe in what this prophet say, and this prophet is Muhammad.”

      Is the conclusion that is stated in the last sentence above correct? It reads:-

      “This means that however believes in the Bible must believe in what this prophet say, and this prophet is Muhammad.”

      To find out we need to go back to what the Biblical text says, which is:-

      “If anyone does not listen to my words that the prophet speaks in my name, I myself will call him to account.”

      This quote above is taken form the ‘New International Version’ of the Bible. The King James Version (1611) of Deuteronomy 18:19 reads:-

      “And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him.”

      Which is very similar in wording and thought. So what does this verse say? It is God speaking about the prophet to come ‘like Moses’, this prophet is spoken of at Deuteronomy Ch. 18 verse 15 which reads first from the:-

      New International Version
      “The LORD your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among your own brothers. You must listen to him.”

      King James Version
      “The LORD thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken.”

      We see again that in both versions of the Bible it reads much the same. So let us look at what verse 19 of chapter 18 of Deuteronomy says, using the quoted verse from ‘A Brief Illustrated Guide To Understanding Islam’ on page 35, which is from the ‘New International Version’ of the Bible:-

      “If anyone does not listen to my words that the prophet speaks in my name, I myself will call him to account.”

      This verse makes four points, a) God’s words are to come, b) via “the prophet” c) “the prophet” is to speak in God’s “name” d) if “the prophet” is “not” listened to, God will hold an accounting with those who do not listen, this last point is a warning from God that he will punish them! What do the four points mean?

      Points a, b, and d, are easy to understand, God will use his prophet to send his message to mankind explaining his will for them, which they will either obey and reap blessing from God, or disobey and suffer the consequences of their actions and God’s displeasure.

      Point d, is interesting as it says “that the prophet speaks in my name.” We should ask what is that “name,” as it is the “name” of the God of Moses, so to find what that “name” is we will look as something else Moses wrote.

      In the King James Version of The Bible at Exodus 6:2-3 we read what Moses heard God say of himself:-

      “And God spake unto Moses, and said unto him, I am the LORD: And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by the name of God Almighty, but by my name JEHOVAH was I not known to them.”

      The ‘New International Version’ of the Bible” renders the same verse as:-

      “God also said to Moses, "I am the LORD. I appeared to Abraham, to Isaac and to Jacob as God Almighty, but by my name the LORD I did not make myself known to them.”

      Notice that the ‘New International Version’ leave out the “name” “Jehovah” and substitutes the word “LORD” instead, why is this? The introduction of the New International Version Study Bible on page xii it explains:-

      “In regards to the divine name YHWH, commonly called the Tetragrammaton, the translators adopted the device used in most English versions of rendering that name as “LORD” in capital letters to distinguish it from Adonai, another Hebrew word rendered “lord” for which small letters are used. Where ever the two names stand together in the Old Testament as a compound name of God, they are rendered “Sovereign LORD.””

      Whereas the King James Version uses the divine “name,” instead of “LORD,” in one of the two places, were it appears in these two verses. The correctness of the King James Version using “Jehovah” is show proved by James Strong’s Hebrew Dictionary which states on “Jehovah”:-

      "No.3069 [YHWH] Yehovah, yeh-ho-vee’; from 1961; (the) self-Existent or Eternal; Jehovah, Jewish national name of God :- Jehovah, the Lord. Comp. 3050, 3060."

      Other Biblical texts where God’s name “JEHOVAH” can be found in the Kings James Version of the Bible are Psalm 83:18; Isaiah 12:2 and 26:4. Further to the above is this comment by D.B.J. in his book ‘The Old Testament for Modern Readers’:-

      “Of all the words for God Jehovah, ‘or Yahweh’ is the only one which is a proper name.”

      So we see that the ‘New International Version’ hides the fact that God has a “name” whereas the ‘King James Version of 1611’ uses the “name” –Jehovah- thus showing that “the prophet” of Deuteronomy 18:15 would come in the “name” of “Jehovah.” Muhammad did not do that, so how can he be the promised “prophet”?

      BU

      Comment


      • "Jehovah" is a particularly inapt way to render the Tetragrammaton. It is a transliteration from Hebrew to Latin to German to English, and IIRC uses the vowel markings for "Adonai" which the Jews pronounced instead of the Tetragrammaton when reading.
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        Comment


        • Originally posted by Bibleuser View Post
          WHAT IS THE “NAME” OF GOD MENTIONED AT DEUTERONOMEY 18:19

          “Of all the words for God Jehovah, ‘or Yahweh’ is the only one which is a proper name.”

          So we see that the ‘New International Version’ hides the fact that God has a “name” whereas the ‘King James Version of 1611’ uses the “name” –Jehovah- thus showing that “the prophet” of Deuteronomy 18:15 would come in the “name” of “Jehovah.” Muhammad did not do that, so how can he be the promised “prophet”?

          BU
          I respect that different Christianities may have different points of emphasis on various matters---As a Muslim, Tawheed (Shema) is a very important concept. Tawheed = God is One/Unique. Therefore, to understand Tawheed correctly means we should not be using "your" God/"my" God---but "our" God because there is only ONE God in existence---to divide God into yours/mine, true/false, or other criteria is to possibly fall into the error of "shirk"(division). Of the 2 conceptions of God, ----one that places emphasis on a "personal name" and one that encourages the use of a generic label,---I would commend the use of a generic label because it more easily expresses the idea of Tawheed---that all humanity worships the one God---the languages, cultures and paradigm in which the concepts of God are articulated differ.

          Islam has "99 names" of God. The number 99 is used to keep the number open-ended so that there can be a thousand "names" of God. What is important is that there is only ONE God and that there is no power other than "The One God". Therefore all the blessings, trials, and destiny that all of humanity are given is from One God and none other. The various labels and names that human groups use as identity and the various languages used to express concepts of God do not invalidate that there is only One God---it only shows the diversity that human creativity produces. As the Quran explains---this diversity is "God's plan" because we grow in the practice of compassion and mercy through this diversity.

          Muslims do not use the Torah or other books to validate the Quran/Islam. The criteria to use to know if the Quran is the word of God or man,--- is given by the Quran itself. If the Quran is indeed the word of God---then automatically the Prophet Muhammed is the messenger of God. (The word translated as "Prophet" does not mean "prophesy"/one who foretells---the Arabic word means "messenger"/one who is given revelation)

          I do not come from a Jewish or Christian background/heritage so this verse (157) is simply one of many interesting verses of the Quran only. Perhaps it would hold more relevance if I had been Christian?....I don't know....

          Comment


          • Originally posted by siam View Post
            I respect that different Christianities may have different points of emphasis on various matters---As a Muslim, Tawheed (Shema) is a very important concept. Tawheed = God is One/Unique. Therefore, to understand Tawheed correctly means we should not be using "your" God/"my" God---but "our" God because there is only ONE God in existence---to divide God into yours/mine, true/false, or other criteria is to possibly fall into the error of "shirk"(division). Of the 2 conceptions of God, ----one that places emphasis on a "personal name" and one that encourages the use of a generic label,---I would commend the use of a generic label because it more easily expresses the idea of Tawheed---that all humanity worships the one God---the languages, cultures and paradigm in which the concepts of God are articulated differ.

            Islam has "99 names" of God. The number 99 is used to keep the number open-ended so that there can be a thousand "names" of God. What is important is that there is only ONE God and that there is no power other than "The One God". Therefore all the blessings, trials, and destiny that all of humanity are given is from One God and none other. The various labels and names that human groups use as identity and the various languages used to express concepts of God do not invalidate that there is only One God---it only shows the diversity that human creativity produces. As the Quran explains---this diversity is "God's plan" because we grow in the practice of compassion and mercy through this diversity.

            Muslims do not use the Torah or other books to validate the Quran/Islam. The criteria to use to know if the Quran is the word of God or man,--- is given by the Quran itself. If the Quran is indeed the word of God---then automatically the Prophet Muhammed is the messenger of God. (The word translated as "Prophet" does not mean "prophesy"/one who foretells---the Arabic word means "messenger"/one who is given revelation)

            I do not come from a Jewish or Christian background/heritage so this verse (157) is simply one of many interesting verses of the Quran only. Perhaps it would hold more relevance if I had been Christian?....I don't know....

            MMMMMMM ......

            If the Qur'an is the word of God then it MUST be it Total harmony with The Bible, it this is not the case then the Qur'an must be a fault!
            Right

            BU

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Bibleuser View Post
              MMMMMMM ......

              If the Qur'an is the word of God then it MUST be it Total harmony with The Bible, it this is not the case then the Qur'an must be a fault!
              Right

              BU
              For this conclusion to work---one must start from the assumption that the "Christian" Bible IS the word of God. The Christian Bible is the OT and NT right?...If so, a Jew would disagree that the Christian Bible is the "word of God"...and some Jews do claim that Christians misinterpret many parts of the Torah.....

              Christians have appropriated the Torah (OT) as their scripture so for Christians it is important to assume the Torah/OT---IS the word of God. However, we Muslims do not require the Torah/OT or the NT to be a part of our "scripture"/sacred texts....the Quran as the "word of God" is enough---it stands on its own. Therefore, unlike Christianity,---we do not begin with the same assumption about the Bible---this means your conclusion does not work.

              But even if we were to start with the assumption that all of the Christian Bible is the "word of God" the question is --- which one? The Catholic or Protestant? The books of the Eastern Churches or Western Church? Peshitta, Diatessaron, or Ge'ez bible? .....

              If one begins with the assumption that the Quran is the last "word of God" then it seems more appropriate to use the Quran as the standard for checking the truth of previous works?....

              Comment


              • Originally posted by siam View Post
                For this conclusion to work---one must start from the assumption that the "Christian" Bible IS the word of God. The Christian Bible is the OT and NT right?...If so, a Jew would disagree that the Christian Bible is the "word of God"...and some Jews do claim that Christians misinterpret many parts of the Torah.....

                Christians have appropriated the Torah (OT) as their scripture so for Christians it is important to assume the Torah/OT---IS the word of God. However, we Muslims do not require the Torah/OT or the NT to be a part of our "scripture"/sacred texts....the Quran as the "word of God" is enough---it stands on its own. Therefore, unlike Christianity,---we do not begin with the same assumption about the Bible---this means your conclusion does not work.

                But even if we were to start with the assumption that all of the Christian Bible is the "word of God" the question is --- which one? The Catholic or Protestant? The books of the Eastern Churches or Western Church? Peshitta, Diatessaron, or Ge'ez bible? .....

                If one begins with the assumption that the Quran is the last "word of God" then it seems more appropriate to use the Quran as the standard for checking the truth of previous works?....
                Not really since 1. The books themselves are the for the most part the same between Christian groups. There are some extra books, but all contain the same set core for their canon. 2. The Quran, Hadith, and Tafsir shows that Mohammed was commanded to check the Injeel and Torah to see if they lined up with the Quran, something he failed to do. We know he failed to do this because he never learned how ignorant he really was about how the Quran was not a confirmation of the Torah and Injeel as it claims to be. 3. The Quran takes the Injeel and Torah as authoritative, and 4. The Quran states that a Muslim must accept the Torah and Injeel as God's word.

                By the way, which Quran interpretation should we use, Shia, Sunni, Ahmadiyya? Which of the 26 Arabic Qurans should we use? Warsh? Qalun? Hafs?

                I wouldn't go with Hafs given he was considered unreliable for the purposes of isnad.

                Source: Musnad Imam Ahmed ibn Hanbal

                1268. It was narrated that 'Ali
                (4=) said: The Messenger of Allah
                Ots) said: "Whoever reads Qur'an
                and learns it by heart, he will be
                granted intercession for ten of his
                family for whom Hell was due."

                Comments: [Its isnad is da'eef jiddan
                because of the weakness of 'Amr
                bin Uthman and Hafs bin Abu
                Umar al-Qari
                and Katheer bin
                Zadhan is unknown]

                © Copyright Original Source

                Comment


                • [QUOTE=Cerebrum123;508612]Not really since
                  1. The books themselves are the for the most part the same between Christian groups. There are some extra books, but all contain the same set core for their canon.
                  2. The Quran, Hadith, and Tafsir shows that Mohammed was commanded to check the Injeel and Torah to see if they lined up with the Quran, something he failed to do. We know he failed to do this because he never learned how ignorant he really was about how the Quran was not a confirmation of the Torah and Injeel as it claims to be.
                  3. The Quran takes the Injeel and Torah as authoritative, and
                  4. The Quran states that a Muslim must accept the Torah and Injeel as God's word.

                  By the way, which Quran interpretation should we use, Shia, Sunni, Ahmadiyya? Which of the 26 Arabic Qurans should we use? Warsh? Qalun? Hafs?

                  1. Since the various Christian bibles are not in complete "harmony" with each other---to ask the Quran to be "in harmony" would not be reasonable?
                  2. The Quran is addressed to a variety of audiences some of them are the "people of the book". The Quran specifies that the Prophet(pbuh) is "illiterate"---does not know scripture/cannot read...obviously checking of any previous scripture cannot be asked of him!!!---The Quran clarifies it is a confirmation of the Torah and the Injeel in those parts that hold the truth---not in those parts that have been corrupted. Personally I think this is a sensible approach---there is no need to repeat mistakes.
                  3. The Quran stands on its own. Muslims do not use any other sacred scripture (revelation).
                  4. The Quran also says that God has sent Guidance to all humanity (because ALL humanity is his creation)---not just the Jews. So far as I have looked, the sacred scriptures of others, like that of the Christians and Jews----also contains truth as well as error. I find echoes of the Quran in the Tao te Ching for example....but not just that---all of creation/nature/universe is also a revelation/a sign (ayah) from him.

                  So....which of God's signs (ayah) would you deny?

                  Interpretations/translations of the Quran are NOT the Quran---they are Tafsir. There is only 1 Quran.
                  There are many styles of reading the Quran as this is an art form. The written Quran (Uthmani codex) uses the Quraishi dialect (The tribe of the Prophet(pbuh)).

                  There are 2 English translations that I like---Marmaduke Pickthall and Yusuf ali and two English interpretations---Yusuf ali and Muhammed Asad. These attempts try to accurately convey the meaning of the Quran...but the beauty of the language is lost---one small attempt to show the literary beauty of the language in translation is done by Micheal Sells---it sacrifices precise meaning...but a glimpse of the poetic beauty of the Quran can be seen.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by siam View Post
                    For this conclusion to work---one must start from the assumption that the "Christian" Bible IS the word of God. The Christian Bible is the OT and NT right?...If so, a Jew would disagree that the Christian Bible is the "word of God"...and some Jews do claim that Christians misinterpret many parts of the Torah.....

                    Christians have appropriated the Torah (OT) as their scripture so for Christians it is important to assume the Torah/OT---IS the word of God. However, we Muslims do not require the Torah/OT or the NT to be a part of our "scripture"/sacred texts....the Quran as the "word of God" is enough---it stands on its own. Therefore, unlike Christianity,---we do not begin with the same assumption about the Bible---this means your conclusion does not work.

                    But even if we were to start with the assumption that all of the Christian Bible is the "word of God" the question is --- which one? The Catholic or Protestant? The books of the Eastern Churches or Western Church? Peshitta, Diatessaron, or Ge'ez bible? .....

                    If one begins with the assumption that the Quran is the last "word of God" then it seems more appropriate to use the Quran as the standard for checking the truth of previous works?....
                    There in NO "Christian Bible" there is Just The Bible or God's Words or The Holy Scriptures to all mankind!

                    There is no Old Testament or New Testament there is ONE Testament from Genesis to Revelation and one main Bible Theme which is God's Kingdom to all mankind.

                    Acts 22:14, 15
                    He said: ‘The God of our forefathers has chosen you (Saul/Paul) to come to know his will and to see the righteous one and to hear the voice of his mouth,
                    15 because you are to be a witness for him to all men of the things you have seen and heard.

                    That which come last must follow that which came first.
                    The Cart does not push the horse or the or the runner start from the finishing line!!

                    BU
                    Last edited by Bibleuser; 01-16-2018, 06:54 AM.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Bibleuser View Post
                      There in NO "Christian Bible" there is Just The Bible or God's Words or The Holy Scriptures to all mankind!

                      There is no Old Testament or New Testament there is ONE Testament from Genesis to Revelation and one main Bible Theme which is God's Kingdom to all mankind.

                      Acts 22:14, 15
                      He said: ‘The God of our forefathers has chosen you (Saul/Paul) to come to know his will and to see the righteous one and to hear the voice of his mouth,
                      15 because you are to be a witness for him to all men of the things you have seen and heard.

                      That which come last must follow that which came first.
                      The Cart does not push the horse or the or the runner start from the finishing line!!

                      BU
                      Respectfully, Old Testament and New Testament are renderings of Old Covenant and New Covenant (Jeremiah 31:31-34, Hebrews 8:8-12).
                      . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                      . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                      Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by siam View Post
                        1. Since the various Christian bibles are not in complete "harmony" with each other---to ask the Quran to be "in harmony" would not be reasonable?
                        2. The Quran is addressed to a variety of audiences some of them are the "people of the book". The Quran specifies that the Prophet(pbuh) is "illiterate"---does not know scripture/cannot read...obviously checking of any previous scripture cannot be asked of him!!!---The Quran clarifies it is a confirmation of the Torah and the Injeel in those parts that hold the truth---not in those parts that have been corrupted. Personally I think this is a sensible approach---there is no need to repeat mistakes.
                        3. The Quran stands on its own. Muslims do not use any other sacred scripture (revelation).
                        4. The Quran also says that God has sent Guidance to all humanity (because ALL humanity is his creation)---not just the Jews. So far as I have looked, the sacred scriptures of others, like that of the Christians and Jews----also contains truth as well as error. I find echoes of the Quran in the Tao te Ching for example....but not just that---all of creation/nature/universe is also a revelation/a sign (ayah) from him.

                        So....which of God's signs (ayah) would you deny?

                        Interpretations/translations of the Quran are NOT the Quran---they are Tafsir. There is only 1 Quran.
                        There are many styles of reading the Quran as this is an art form. The written Quran (Uthmani codex) uses the Quraishi dialect (The tribe of the Prophet(pbuh)).

                        There are 2 English translations that I like---Marmaduke Pickthall and Yusuf ali and two English interpretations---Yusuf ali and Muhammed Asad. These attempts try to accurately convey the meaning of the Quran...but the beauty of the language is lost---one small attempt to show the literary beauty of the language in translation is done by Micheal Sells---it sacrifices precise meaning...but a glimpse of the poetic beauty of the Quran can be seen.
                        1. The Quran is not in harmony, even when looking only at the parts addressed to Muslims specifically. Early it calls for peace, later it calls for the murder of those who do not believe Islam, purely on the basis that they reject Islam. I have shown you this with the immediate, extended, and historical context, along with the Tafsir and Hadith to confirm it.
                        2. So, you understand that different audiences actually means something with regards to consistency in the Quran, which is one book, but don't seem to realize that this is an even greater concern for around 60 books across hundreds of years.
                        3. Not really, because without the Hadith and Tafsir the Quran is incomprehensible jibberish, even in Arabic. Without those two sources to prop up the Quran, no one could really understand any of it.
                        4. The message of Jesus was for all mankind, and is called the Gospel. Oddly enough, the Quran was revealed in Arabic specifically for Arabs, well, if you believe the Quran on the matter. I have shown there to be a lot of moral, historical, textual, linguistic, and theological errors in the Quran, you have shown none in the Old Testament or New Testament.

                        I deny no signs from God, I do deny a poorly written, and evil book from "Allah". For the "Allah" described within is not the God who created everything, who brought the Israelites out of Egypt, or who sent Jesus Christ to die for our sins. He is the antichrist, the father of lies. He is the devil himself.

                        2 Corinthians 11:12 And I will keep on doing what I am doing in order to cut the ground from under those who want an opportunity to be considered equal with us in the things they boast about. 13 For such people are false apostles, deceitful workers, masquerading as apostles of Christ. 14 And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. 15 It is not surprising, then, if his servants also masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their end will be what their actions deserve.

                        Matthew 24:23-25New International Version (NIV)
                        23 At that time if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Messiah!’ or, ‘There he is!’ do not believe it. 24 For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 25 See, I have told you ahead of time.

                        No amount of peasant aural stimulus can truly mask the evil in the Quran.

                        Looks like there are over 30 Arabic Qurans, not translations from Arabic, but actual Arabic Qurans that all differ from each other. The video is long, but it gives examples of where these Arabic versions of the Quran significantly differ from each other in meaning. Some of the variations are minor, and are not a problem, but that is not true of all of them. Around the 35 minute mark he starts getting into some of the thousands of differences.



                        There would be a lot more if Uthman hadn't burned all of the competing codices from his time.

                        Edit. I snipped out the part of the quote that got scrambled in from one of my previous post. I hope I got all of it.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                          Respectfully, Old Testament and New Testament are renderings of Old Covenant and New Covenant (Jeremiah 31:31-34, Hebrews 8:8-12).
                          True 2 covenants, but one text from start to finish, one story, one promise, one Christ, one God, one kingdom, one Bible.
                          So I don not hold to OT and NT is all one Testament.
                          BU

                          BU

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Christian3 View Post
                            Song of Solomon 5:16 Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)

                            16 His mouth is sweetness.
                            He is absolutely desirable.
                            This is my love, and this is my friend,
                            young women of Jerusalem.

                            Muslims: Do you believe Muhammad's name appears in the Song of Songs?

                            Thank you.
                            The descendants of Ishmael, the Ishmaelites, are numbered among the enemies of Allah because as a nation the turned against Allah and his people the Israelites:-

                            Psalm 83:1-9
                            O God, let there be no silence on your part; Do not keep speechless, and do not stay quiet, O Divine One.
                            2 For, look! your very enemies are in an uproar; And the very ones intensely hating you have raised [their] head.
                            3 Against your people
                            they cunningly carry on their confidential talk; And they conspire against your concealed ones.
                            4 They have said: "Come and let us efface them from being a nation, That the name of Israel may be remembered no more."
                            5 For with the heart they have unitedly exchanged counsel; Against you they proceeded to conclude even a covenant,
                            6 The tents of Edom and the ISHMAELITES, Moab and the Hagrites,
                            7 Gebal and Ammon and Amalek, Philistia together with the inhabitants of Tyre.
                            8 Also, Assyria itself has become joined with them; They have become an arm to the sons of Lot.
                            9 Do to them as to Midian, as to Sisera, As to Jabin at the torrent valley of Kishon*. ....
                            16 Fill their faces with dishonor, That people may search for your name, O Jehovah.
                            17 O may they be ashamed and be disturbed for all times, And may they become abashed and perish;
                            18 That people may know that you, whose name is Jehovah, You alone are the Most High over all the earth.

                            Vs. 9 *Which is to destroy them!

                            So why would God choose a man to be his prophet from a nation that the considered his enemy and was only fit for destruction?

                            BU

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Bibleuser View Post
                              There in NO "Christian Bible" there is Just The Bible or God's Words or The Holy Scriptures to all mankind!

                              There is no Old Testament or New Testament there is ONE Testament from Genesis to Revelation and one main Bible Theme which is God's Kingdom to all mankind.

                              Acts 22:14, 15
                              He said: ‘The God of our forefathers has chosen you (Saul/Paul) to come to know his will and to see the righteous one and to hear the voice of his mouth,
                              15 because you are to be a witness for him to all men of the things you have seen and heard.

                              That which come last must follow that which came first.
                              The Cart does not push the horse or the or the runner start from the finishing line!!

                              BU
                              One Testament?---perhaps our definition of one is different? Do not different Christianities have a different set of Bible (books)?, do'nt they also have books they have discarded so that these works are divided into Canon (authoritative) and apocrypha? It seems God's words that fit with what Christians want to believe are canon and those that do not fit are discarded? is this so?

                              The sacred text of the Jews is mainly the Torah (Tanakh/Talmud)...these include the "law"/mitzvot---yet, Christians have discarded this part of "God's words" claiming they no longer apply?...am I correct?
                              Most Jews do not recognize the Gospels and other "Christian" texts as "Gods words" and Christians also disregard some parts of Jewish sacred texts which they (Jews) regard as "God's words"?

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                                Respectfully, Old Testament and New Testament are renderings of Old Covenant and New Covenant (Jeremiah 31:31-34, Hebrews 8:8-12).
                                Is there a Noah covenant? I hear Christians discussing Noahide something?..Law?
                                How important is the "covenant" theme compared to other themes such as crucifixion, resurrection etc?
                                Is there an Adamic covenant?

                                Comment

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