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Thread: Muhammad mentioned by name in the Song of Songs?

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    Surah Al-Ikhlas (Purity) 112

    This is an early Meccan Surah---and its audience would have been the Meccan polytheists. The Meccan Supreme God had daughters and this Surah is teaching them about the concept of Tawheed (Unity)---One God.

    The "one" used here is "ahad" in Arabic (verse 1)---it connotes "unique" as opposed to a numerical one. (Hebrew = Echad)
    In the Arabic, the ending of the next verse rhymes with the ending of the first---the word is "Samad" In the Tafsir of Yusuf Ali, 2 understanding of this word is given 1) All "existence" except that of God is temporal/conditional 2) God is independent---but all creation is dependent on God.

    the 3rd verse clearly restates the concept of "one" (Ahad) means there are no offspring/Parents (neither sons nor daughters nor Father nor Mother) of God.

    and the 4rth verse restates that "ahad" connotes Uniqueness---"there is none like unto him"

    The core essence of Islam is explained in 4 poetic verses using words of profound meaning as well as pleasant sound.

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    Quote Originally Posted by siam View Post
    So, your criteria of "great lawgiver" is one who gives 2 laws instead of the 613 mitzvot?
    "Great Lawgiver for his nation. Jesus taught on his own authority the laws of God and raised observance of those laws to a new and higher level"

    Jesus improved on the law.

    Siam, your list of Muhammad and Moses are alike was sort of like saying they both had brown eyes and Jesus' was blue.

    Jesus and Moses were uniquely alike.

    Besides taking Deuteronomy 18 in context leaves Muhammad out. The prophet like Moses would come from their brothers the tribes of Israel.

    Also, I don't think the following verses of the Qur'an are about Muhammad:

    Surah 7:157

    Literal
    (Word by Word) Those who follow the Messenger, the unlettered Prophet, whom they find him written with them in the Taurat and the Injeel. He commands them to the right and forbids them from the wrong, and he makes lawful for them the pure things and makes unlawful for them the impure things and he relieves from them their burden and the fetters which were upon them. So those who believe in him and honor him, and help him and follow the light which has been sent down with him. Those (are) [they] the successful ones."


    Surah 7:158

    Literal
    (Word by Word) Say, "O mankind! Indeed I am (the) Messenger (of) Allah to you all, the One for Whom (is the) dominion (of) the heavens and the earth. (There is) no god except Him, He gives life and causes death. So believe in Allah and His Messenger, the unlettered [the] Prophet the one who believes in Allah and His Words, and follow so that you may (be) guided."

    They could be about Jesus and that is why we can't find Muhammad foretold in the Bible.

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    Troll Magnet Sparko's Avatar
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    So, apparently the bible mentions me in two places.

    Job 5:7
    Yet man is born to trouble as surely as sparks fly upward.

    Job 41:19
    Flames stream from its mouth; sparks of fire shoot out.

  4. Amen Bill the Cat amen'd this post.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Christian3 View Post
    "Great Lawgiver for his nation. Jesus taught on his own authority the laws of God and raised observance of those laws to a new and higher level"

    Jesus improved on the law.

    Siam, your list of Muhammad and Moses are alike was sort of like saying they both had brown eyes and Jesus' was blue.

    Jesus and Moses were uniquely alike.

    Besides taking Deuteronomy 18 in context leaves Muhammad out. The prophet like Moses would come from their brothers the tribes of Israel.

    Also, I don't think the following verses of the Qur'an are about Muhammad:

    Surah 7:157

    Literal
    (Word by Word) Those who follow the Messenger, the unlettered Prophet, whom they find him written with them in the Taurat and the Injeel. He commands them to the right and forbids them from the wrong, and he makes lawful for them the pure things and makes unlawful for them the impure things and he relieves from them their burden and the fetters which were upon them. So those who believe in him and honor him, and help him and follow the light which has been sent down with him. Those (are) [they] the successful ones."


    Surah 7:158

    Literal
    (Word by Word) Say, "O mankind! Indeed I am (the) Messenger (of) Allah to you all, the One for Whom (is the) dominion (of) the heavens and the earth. (There is) no god except Him, He gives life and causes death. So believe in Allah and His Messenger, the unlettered [the] Prophet the one who believes in Allah and His Words, and follow so that you may (be) guided."

    They could be about Jesus and that is why we can't find Muhammad foretold in the Bible.
    Deuteronomy 18 ---
    "I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and I will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him."

    The Quran traces the brotherhood between Jews and Muslims to the Prophet Abraham and his two sons (peace be upon them). (see Quran, Surah 2 verses 122-141)
    132. And Abraham enjoined upon his sons and so did Jacob; "Oh my sons! God has chosen the faith for you; then die not except in a state of submission (to me) (= muslim)
    133. Were you witnesses when death appeared before Jacob? Behold, he said to his sons: "what will you worship after me?" They said: "We shall your God and the God of your fathers, of Abraham, Ismail, and Isaac, the one and only God; to him do we submit.
    134. That was a people that has passed away. They shall reap the fruit of what they did and you of what you do. You shall not be asked about what they did.
    135. They say: "Become Jews or Christians if you would be guided (to salvation)" Say you; No (I would rather) the religion of Abraham the true, and he joined not gods with God".
    136. Say you "We believe in God and the revelation given to us, and to Abraham, Ismail, Isaac, Jacob and the tribes, and that given to Moses and Jesus, and that given to all Prophets from their Lord: We make no difference between one and another of them: and we submit to God.

    "My Words"----Muslims understand the Quran as the "words of God". The Prophet simply recited these words as commanded by God.

    Surah 7 verses 157, 158
    The verses could refer to Prophet Jesus (pbuh) if "unlettered" were excluded. Prophet Jesus was knowledgeable of Jewish scriptures. This is explained in Surah 3 verse 48, 51 (...also hinted at in Luke 2:46,47.)

    Verse 48. "And God will teach him the Book and Wisdom, the Torah and the Injil,"

    which is why, from a Muslim perspective---the reference is to Prophet Muhammed.
    Last edited by siam; 05-05-2017 at 03:36 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by siam View Post
    Surah Al-Ikhlas (Purity) 112

    This is an early Meccan Surah---and its audience would have been the Meccan polytheists. The Meccan Supreme God had daughters and this Surah is teaching them about the concept of Tawheed (Unity)---One God.

    The "one" used here is "ahad" in Arabic (verse 1)---it connotes "unique" as opposed to a numerical one. (Hebrew = Echad)
    In the Arabic, the ending of the next verse rhymes with the ending of the first---the word is "Samad" In the Tafsir of Yusuf Ali, 2 understanding of this word is given 1) All "existence" except that of God is temporal/conditional 2) God is independent---but all creation is dependent on God.

    the 3rd verse clearly restates the concept of "one" (Ahad) means there are no offspring/Parents (neither sons nor daughters nor Father nor Mother) of God.

    and the 4rth verse restates that "ahad" connotes Uniqueness---"there is none like unto him"

    The core essence of Islam is explained in 4 poetic verses using words of profound meaning as well as pleasant sound.
    You do know that Christians worship only God, don't you?

  7. Amen Cerebrum123 amen'd this post.
  8. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by siam View Post
    Deuteronomy 18 ---
    "I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and I will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him."

    The Quran traces the brotherhood between Jews and Muslims to the Prophet Abraham and his two sons (peace be upon them). (see Quran, Surah 2 verses 122-141)
    132. And Abraham enjoined upon his sons and so did Jacob; "Oh my sons! God has chosen the faith for you; then die not except in a state of submission (to me) (= muslim)
    133. Were you witnesses when death appeared before Jacob? Behold, he said to his sons: "what will you worship after me?" They said: "We shall your God and the God of your fathers, of Abraham, Ismail, and Isaac, the one and only God; to him do we submit.
    134. That was a people that has passed away. They shall reap the fruit of what they did and you of what you do. You shall not be asked about what they did.
    135. They say: "Become Jews or Christians if you would be guided (to salvation)" Say you; No (I would rather) the religion of Abraham the true, and he joined not gods with God".
    136. Say you "We believe in God and the revelation given to us, and to Abraham, Ismail, Isaac, Jacob and the tribes, and that given to Moses and Jesus, and that given to all Prophets from their Lord: We make no difference between one and another of them: and we submit to God.

    "My Words"----Muslims understand the Quran as the "words of God". The Prophet simply recited these words as commanded by God.

    Surah 7 verses 157, 158
    The verses could refer to Prophet Jesus (pbuh) if "unlettered" were excluded. Prophet Jesus was knowledgeable of Jewish scriptures. This is explained in Surah 3 verse 48, 51 (...also hinted at in Luke 2:46,47.)

    Verse 48. "And God will teach him the Book and Wisdom, the Torah and the Injil,"

    which is why, from a Muslim perspective---the reference is to Prophet Muhammed.
    Everyone acknowledges that Abraham had two sons.

    The context of Deuteronomy 18 confirms that the brothers would come from the remaining 11 tribes of Israel.

    Many Muslims say that Muhammad was illiterate, but the Qur'an says he was unlettered, he wasn't schooled.

    those who follow the Messenger the uninstructed Prophet Muhammad s whom they will find inscribed in their Torah and Gospel in name and description enjoining them to decency and forbidding them indecency making lawful for them the good things which were forbidden to them by their Law and making unlawful for them the vile things such as carrion and the like and relieving them of their burden their onus and the shackles the hardships that they used to bear such as the requirement to kill oneself as a repentance and the severing of that part that had come into contact with any impurity. Then those who believe in him from among them and honour revere him and help him and follow the light that has been revealed with him namely the Qur’ān they are the ones who will prosper’.

    http://altafsir.com/Tafasir.asp?tMad...&UserProfile=0

    Jesus was unlettered.

    John 714 When the festival was already half over, Jesus went up into the temple complex and began to teach. 15 Then the Jews were amazed and said, “How does He know the Scriptures, since He hasn’t been trained?”

    John 7:14-15New American Standard Bible (NASB)

    14 But when it was now the midst of the feast Jesus went up into the temple, and began to teach. 15 The Jews then were astonished, saying, “How has this man become learned, having never been educated?”

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    tWebber Chrawnus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparko View Post
    So, apparently the bible mentions me in two places.

    Job 5:7
    Yet man is born to trouble as surely as sparks fly upward.

    Job 41:19
    Flames stream from its mouth; sparks of fire shoot out.
    Pfft.

    Psalm 103:4 who redeems your life from the pit, who crowns you with steadfast love and mercy,

    Song of Solomon 7:5 Your head crowns you like Carmel, and your flowing locks are like purple; a king is held captive in the tresses.

    Isaiah 23:8 Who has purposed this against Tyre, the bestower of crowns, whose merchants were princes, whose traders were the honored of the earth?

    Ezekiel 23:42 The sound of a carefree multitude was with her; and with men of the common sort, drunkards were brought from the wilderness; and they put bracelets on the hands of the women, and beautiful crowns on their heads.

    Revelation 4:4 Around the throne were twenty-four thrones, and seated on the thrones were twenty-four elders, clothed in white garments, with golden crowns on their heads.

    Revelation 4:10 the twenty-four elders fall down before him who is seated on the throne and worship him who lives forever and ever. They cast their crowns before the throne, saying,

    Revelation 9:7 In appearance the locusts were like horses prepared for battle: on their heads were what looked like crowns of gold; their faces were like human faces,

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    tWebber Bisto's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chrawnus View Post
    Pfft.

    Psalm 103:4 who redeems your life from the pit, who crowns you with steadfast love and mercy,

    Song of Solomon 7:5 Your head crowns you like Carmel, and your flowing locks are like purple; a king is held captive in the tresses.

    Isaiah 23:8 Who has purposed this against Tyre, the bestower of crowns, whose merchants were princes, whose traders were the honored of the earth?

    Ezekiel 23:42 The sound of a carefree multitude was with her; and with men of the common sort, drunkards were brought from the wilderness; and they put bracelets on the hands of the women, and beautiful crowns on their heads.

    Revelation 4:4 Around the throne were twenty-four thrones, and seated on the thrones were twenty-four elders, clothed in white garments, with golden crowns on their heads.

    Revelation 4:10 the twenty-four elders fall down before him who is seated on the throne and worship him who lives forever and ever. They cast their crowns before the throne, saying,

    Revelation 9:7 In appearance the locusts were like horses prepared for battle: on their heads were what looked like crowns of gold; their faces were like human faces,
    Mine is earlier

    Scripture Verse: Genesis 1:24

    And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.

    © Copyright Original Source

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    tWebber Bisto's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by siam View Post
    Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) in the Old Testament:

    The Qur’an mentions in Surah Al-Araf chapter 7 verse 157:

    "Those who follow the Messenger, the unlettered Prophet, whom they find mentioned in their own (scriptures) in the law and the Gospel".


    1.
    MUHAMMAD (PBUH) PROPHESISED IN THE BOOK OF DEUTERONOMY:


    Almighty God speaks to Moses in Book of Deuteronomy chapter 18 verse 18:

    "I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and I will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him."

    The Christians say that this prophecy refers to Jesus (pbuh) because Jesus (pbuh) was like Moses (pbuh). Moses (pbuh) was a Jew, as well as Jesus (pbuh) was a Jew. Moses (pbuh) was a Prophet and Jesus (pbuh) was also a Prophet.

    If these two are the only criteria for this prophecy to be fulfilled, then all the Prophets of the Bible who came after
    Moses (pbuh) such as Solomon, Isaiah, Ezekiel, Daniel, Hosea, Joel, Malachi, John the Baptist, etc. (pbut) will
    fulfill this prophecy since all were Jews as well as prophets.

    However, it is Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) who is like Moses (pbuh):


    i)

    Both had a father and a mother, while Jesus (pbuh) was born miraculously without any male intervention.

    [Mathew 1:18 and Luke 1:35 and also Al-Qur'an 3:42-47]


    ii)
    Both were married and had children. Jesus (pbuh) according to the Bible did not marry nor had children.

    iii)
    Both died natural deaths. Jesus (pbuh) has been raised up alive. (4:157-158)


    Muhammad (pbuh) is from among the brethren of Moses (pbuh). Arabs are brethren of Jews. Abraham (pbuh) had two sons: Ishmail and Isaac (pbut). The Arabs are the descendants of Ishmail (pbuh) and the Jews are the descendants of Isaac (pbuh).

    Words in the mouth:

    Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) was unlettered and whatever revelations he received from Almighty God he repeated them verbatim.

    "I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him."

    [Deuteronomy 18:18]


    iv)
    Both besides being Prophets were also kings i.e. they could inflict capital punishment. Jesus (pbuh) said, "My kingdom is not of this world." (John 18:36).

    v)
    Both were accepted as Prophets by their people in their lifetime but Jesus (pbuh) was rejected by his
    people. John chapter 1 verse 11 states, "He came unto his own, but his own received him not."

    iv)
    Both brought new laws and new regulations for their people. Jesus (pbuh) according to the Bible did not bring any new laws. (Mathew 5:17-18).

    2.
    It is Mentioned in the book of Deuteronomy chapter 18:19


    "And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not harken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him."


    3.
    Muhammad (pbuh) is prophesised in the book of Isaiah:


    It is mentioned in the book of Isaiah chapter 29 verse 12:

    "And the book is delivered to him that is not learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I am not learned."

    When Archangel Gabrail commanded Muhammad (pbuh) by saying Iqra - "Read", he replied, "I am not learned".


    4.
    prophet Muhammad (pbuh) mentioned by name in the old testament:


    Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) is mentioned by name in the Song of Solomon chapter 5 verse 16:

    "Hikko Mamittakim we kullo Muhammadim Zehdoodeh wa Zehraee Bayna Jerusalem."

    "His mouth is most sweet: yea, he is altogether lovely. This is my beloved, and this is my friend, O daughters
    of Jerusalem."

    In the Hebrew language im is added for respect. Similarely im is added after the name of Prophet Muhammad
    (pbuh) to make it Muhammadim. In English translation they have even translated the name of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) as "altogether lovely", but in the Old Testament in Hebrew, the name of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) is yet present.


    Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) in the New Testament:

    Al-Qur'an Chapter 61 Verse 6:

    "And remember, Jesus, the son of Mary, said, 'O Children of Israel! I am the messenger of Allah (sent) to you, confirming the Law (which came) before me and giving glad tidings of a messenger to come after me, whose name shall be Ahmed.' But when he came to them with clear signs, they said, 'This is evident sorcery!' "

    All the prophecies mentioned in the Old Testament regarding Muhammad (pbuh) besides applying to the Jews also hold good for the Christians.


    1.
    John chapter 14 verse 16:
    "And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you forever."

    2.
    Gospel of John chapter 15 verse 26:

    "But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which
    proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me."

    3.
    Gospel of John chapter 16 verse 7:


    "Nevertheless I tell you the truth; it is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not
    come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you".

    "Ahmed" or "Muhammad" meaning "the one who praises" or "the praised one" is almost the translation of the
    Greek word Periclytos. In the Gospel of John 14:16, 15:26, and 16:7. The word 'Comforter' is used in the English translation for the Greek word Paracletos which means advocate or a kind friend rather than a comforter.
    Paracletos is the warped reading for Periclytos. Jesus (pbuh) actually prophesised Ahmed by name. Even the
    Greek word Paraclete refers to the Prophet (pbuh) who is a mercy for all creatures.

    Some Christians say that the Comforter mentioned in these prophecies refers to the Holy Sprit. They fail to realise
    that the prophecy clearly says that only if Jesus (pbuh) departs will the Comforter come. The Bible states that the
    Holy Spirit was already present on earth before and during the time of Jesus (pbuh), in the womb of Elizabeth, and again when Jesus (pbuh) was being baptised, etc. Hence this prophecy refers to none other than Prophet
    Muhammad (pbuh).


    4.
    Gospel of John chapter 16 verse 12-14:

    "I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth is
    come, he will guide you unto all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me".

    The Sprit of Truth, spoken about in this prophecy referes to none other than Prophet Muhammad (pbuh)
    NOTE: All quotations of the Bible are taken from the King James Version.

    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    The verse in the Quran that mentions this:---Surah 7, verse 156, 157

    156. "And ordain for us that which is good, in this life and in the Hereafter: for we have turned unto Thee." He said: "With My punishment I visit whom I will; but My mercy extends to all things. That (mercy) I shall ordain for those who do right, and practice regular charity, and those who believe in Our signs;-

    157. "Those who follow the messenger, the unlettered Prophet, whom they find mentioned in their own (scriptures),- in the law and the Gospel;- for he commands them what is just and forbids them what is evil; he allows them as lawful what is good (and pure) and prohibits them from what is bad (and impure); He releases them from their heavy burdens and from the yokes that are upon them. So it is those who believe in him, honour him, help him, and follow the light which is sent down with him,- it is they who will prosper."

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Personally, I am neutral when it comes to such things---since my belief in Islam as "my way" is based on other criteria....
    Hi Mr. Siam. I don't think we've interacted before. I just want to say that after reading some of your posts and threads in the months I've been here at tweb, I think this comparison (whether Jesus or Muhammad are 'more like' Moses) seems not thoughtful enough to be coming from you. I think your posts are almost always delightful to read -- this time, I was disappointed :(
    We are therefore Christ's ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore on Christ's behalf: 'Be reconciled to God!!'
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  12. #30
    Professor Cerebrum123's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bisto View Post
    Hi Mr. Siam. I don't think we've interacted before. I just want to say that after reading some of your posts and threads in the months I've been here at tweb, I think this comparison (whether Jesus or Muhammad are 'more like' Moses) seems not thoughtful enough to be coming from you. I think your posts are almost always delightful to read -- this time, I was disappointed :(
    In my experience most of his posts are like the one you just quoted. Cherry picks what he wants to believe, and ignores what doesn't fit that.
    Safka, you are NOT "unknown", you were loved by many, and you will not be forgotten. I will always remember you Puginator.


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