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Muhammad mentioned by name in the Song of Songs?

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  • #31
    Originally posted by Cerebrum123 View Post
    In my experience most of his posts are like the one you just quoted. Cherry picks what he wants to believe, and ignores what doesn't fit that.
    Fwiw, I don't remember reading posts by him about scripture interpretation (Muslim or otherwise). The kind of posts I am referring to are where he discusses more social and political stuff, e.g. discussions with Robrecht. Those I liked.

    Nonetheless, I would imagine you two have already discussed some points of interaction/friction between Christian and Muslim scriptures...?
    We are therefore Christ's ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore on Christ's behalf: 'Be reconciled to God!!'
    - 2 Corinthians 5:20.
    In deviantArt: ll-bisto-ll.deviantart.com
    Christian art and more: Christians.deviantart.com

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by Bisto View Post
      Fwiw, I don't remember reading posts by him about scripture interpretation (Muslim or otherwise). The kind of posts I am referring to are where he discusses more social and political stuff, e.g. discussions with Robrecht. Those I liked.

      Nonetheless, I would imagine you two have already discussed some points of interaction/friction between Christian and Muslim scriptures...?
      Didn't see those, I'm referring to stuff like this. He pretty much skips over anything he doesn't like, and basically admits it in one of the posts.

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by Bisto View Post
        Hi Mr. Siam. I don't think we've interacted before. I just want to say that after reading some of your posts and threads in the months I've been here at tweb, I think this comparison (whether Jesus or Muhammad are 'more like' Moses) seems not thoughtful enough to be coming from you. I think your posts are almost always delightful to read -- this time, I was disappointed :(
        It didn't come from Siam. It is a copy and paste from this site:

        http://www.islam101.com/religions/ch...ity/mBible.htm

        by Muslim Dr. Zakir Naik.

        i)
        Both had a father and a mother, while Jesus (pbuh) was born miraculously without any male intervention.
        [Mathew 1:18 and Luke 1:35 and also Al-Qur'an 3:42-47]

        ii)
        Both were married and had children. Jesus (pbuh) according to the Bible did not marry nor had children.

        iii)
        Both died natural deaths. Jesus (pbuh) has been raised up alive. (4:157-158)

        iv)
        Both besides being Prophets were also kings i.e. they could inflict capital punishment. Jesus (pbuh) said, "My kingdom is not of this world." (John 18:36).

        v)
        Both were accepted as Prophets by their people in their lifetime but Jesus (pbuh) was rejected by his
        people. John chapter 1 verse 11 states, "He came unto his own, but his own received him not."

        iv)
        Both brought new laws and new regulations for their people. Jesus (pbuh) according to the Bible did not bring any new laws. (Mathew 5:17-18).

        There is a warning in Deuteronomy 18:

        Deuteronomy 18:19Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)

        19 I will hold accountable whoever does not listen to My words that he speaks in My name.

        People like Dr. Zakir Naik keep Muslims from knowing who Jesus is and following Him, which is tragic.

        As Jesus said:

        "Salvation is from the Jews."

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by Christian3 View Post
          It didn't come from Siam. It is a copy and paste from this site:

          http://www.islam101.com/religions/ch...ity/mBible.htm

          by Muslim Dr. Zakir Naik.

          i)
          Both had a father and a mother, while Jesus (pbuh) was born miraculously without any male intervention.
          [Mathew 1:18 and Luke 1:35 and also Al-Qur'an 3:42-47]

          ii)
          Both were married and had children. Jesus (pbuh) according to the Bible did not marry nor had children.

          iii)
          Both died natural deaths. Jesus (pbuh) has been raised up alive. (4:157-158)

          iv)
          Both besides being Prophets were also kings i.e. they could inflict capital punishment. Jesus (pbuh) said, "My kingdom is not of this world." (John 18:36).

          v)
          Both were accepted as Prophets by their people in their lifetime but Jesus (pbuh) was rejected by his
          people. John chapter 1 verse 11 states, "He came unto his own, but his own received him not."

          iv)
          Both brought new laws and new regulations for their people. Jesus (pbuh) according to the Bible did not bring any new laws. (Mathew 5:17-18).

          There is a warning in Deuteronomy 18:

          Deuteronomy 18:19Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)

          19 I will hold accountable whoever does not listen to My words that he speaks in My name.

          People like Dr. Zakir Naik keep Muslims from knowing who Jesus is and following Him, which is tragic.

          As Jesus said:

          "Salvation is from the Jews."
          Zakir Naik?

          That explains so much.

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by Christian3 View Post
            Everyone acknowledges that Abraham had two sons.

            The context of Deuteronomy 18 confirms that the brothers would come from the remaining 11 tribes of Israel.

            Many Muslims say that Muhammad was illiterate, but the Qur'an says he was unlettered, he wasn't schooled.

            those who follow the Messenger the uninstructed Prophet Muhammad s whom they will find inscribed in their Torah and Gospel in name and description enjoining them to decency and forbidding them indecency making lawful for them the good things which were forbidden to them by their Law and making unlawful for them the vile things such as carrion and the like and relieving them of their burden their onus and the shackles the hardships that they used to bear such as the requirement to kill oneself as a repentance and the severing of that part that had come into contact with any impurity. Then those who believe in him from among them and honour revere him and help him and follow the light that has been revealed with him namely the Qur’ān they are the ones who will prosper’.

            http://altafsir.com/Tafasir.asp?tMad...&UserProfile=0

            Jesus was unlettered.

            John 714 When the festival was already half over, Jesus went up into the temple complex and began to teach. 15 Then the Jews were amazed and said, “How does He know the Scriptures, since He hasn’t been trained?”

            John 7:14-15New American Standard Bible (NASB)

            14 But when it was now the midst of the feast Jesus went up into the temple, and began to teach. 15 The Jews then were astonished, saying, “How has this man become learned, having never been educated?”
            Surah 7 verses 157, 158
            The verses could refer to Prophet Jesus (pbuh) if "unlettered" were excluded. Prophet Jesus was knowledgeable of Jewish scriptures. This is explained in Surah 3 verse 48, 51 (...also hinted at in Luke 2:46,47.)

            Verse 48. "And God will teach him the Book and Wisdom, the Torah and the Injil,"

            Jesus Christ (pbuh) is supposed to be God in Christianity? Yet, God needs to be taught? I find it interesting that the Christian Jesus (pbuh) often appears more human than the Muslim one....anyway...according to the verse in Surah 3, Jesus(pbuh) was taught by God...therefore, he was literate in scripture and language....just as he was given the ability to turn clay birds into real ones and to cure the ill, the blind....etc...

            Verse 49 SAHIH INTERNATIONAL
            And [make him] a messenger to the Children of Israel, [who will say], 'Indeed I have come to you with a sign from your Lord in that I design for you from clay [that which is] like the form of a bird, then I breathe into it and it becomes a bird by permission of Allah . And I cure the blind and the leper, and I give life to the dead - by permission of Allah . And I inform you of what you eat and what you store in your houses. Indeed in that is a sign for you, if you are believers.

            therefore---"unlettered" would not apply to Jesus Christ (pbuh) for Muslims....

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by Bisto View Post
              Hi Mr. Siam. I don't think we've interacted before. I just want to say that after reading some of your posts and threads in the months I've been here at tweb, I think this comparison (whether Jesus or Muhammad are 'more like' Moses) seems not thoughtful enough to be coming from you. I think your posts are almost always delightful to read -- this time, I was disappointed :(
              Thankyou for your kind words. I look forward to our conversation. I am neutral on this topic...therefore I copy/paste info on this from the net.
              I am selective about my interactions---there is an internet apologetics site called answering Muslims (David Wood) which has corresponding answering Christians site....Such apologetics may be useful for some but it is not of interest to me personally.....exploring ideas is interesting....such as...

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by siam View Post
                Surah 7 verses 157, 158
                The verses could refer to Prophet Jesus (pbuh) if "unlettered" were excluded. Prophet Jesus was knowledgeable of Jewish scriptures. This is explained in Surah 3 verse 48, 51 (...also hinted at in Luke 2:46,47.)
                This happened when Jesus was 12 and shows us that Jesus was special in His understanding.

                Originally posted by siam View Post

                Verse 48. "And God will teach him the Book and Wisdom, the Torah and the Injil,"

                Jesus Christ (pbuh) is supposed to be God in Christianity? Yet, God needs to be taught?
                What you need to understand is that the Scriptures show that Jesus is genuinely human and genuinely divine. As human Jesus was taught. The Qur'an says that Jesus could not be God because He had to eat food, which would lead one to believe Allah had never heard of the Incarnation.

                Originally posted by siam View Post


                I find it interesting that the Christian Jesus (pbuh) often appears more human than the Muslim one..
                On the contrary, Jesus Christ made claims for Himself that only God could make for Himself.

                Example 1.

                Jesus: "I am the good shepherd." John 10:11

                Yet, YHWH is the Shepherd.

                YHWH: " Psalm 23:1. The LORD is my shepherd, I shall not be in want.

                Example 2.

                Jesus: Jesus claimed to be judge of all men and nations.

                John 5:27And he has given him authority to judge because he is the Son of Man.

                Matthew 25 31"When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. 32All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left..

                Yet YHWH claims to be the judge.

                YHWH:

                Joel 3:
                12 "Let the nations be roused;
                let them advance into the Valley of Jehoshaphat,
                for there I will sit
                to judge all the nations on every side.

                Example 3.

                Jesus: John 8: 12When Jesus spoke again to the people, he said, "I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life.""I am the light of the world.

                Yet is is YHWH who is the light.

                YHWH:

                Isaiah 60: 19 The sun will no more be your light by day,
                nor will the brightness of the moon shine on you,
                for the LORD will be your everlasting light,
                and your God will be your glory.


                Example 4.

                Jesus described Himself as the coming bridegroom.

                Matthew 25: 1"At that time the kingdom of heaven will be like ten virgins who took their lamps and went out to meet the bridegroom.

                Yet, YHWH is described as the bridegroom.

                YHWH:

                Isaiah 62: 5 As a young man marries a maiden,
                so will your sons [a] marry you;
                as a bridegroom rejoices over his bride,
                so will your God rejoice over you.

                Hosea 2: 16 "In that day," declares the LORD,
                "you will call me 'my husband';
                you will no longer call me 'my master.[a]'



                Example 5.

                Jesus: Revelation 1:17

                Revelation 1:17When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said: "Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last.

                Yet it is YHWH who is the First and the Last.

                YHWH:

                Isaiah 48: 12 "Listen to me, O Jacob,
                Israel, whom I have called:
                I am he;
                I am the first and I am the last.


                Example 6.

                Jesus: Jesus claimed to be the great I AM.

                John 8:58,"I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!"

                Yet it is YHWH who is the Great I AM.

                YHWH: Exodus 3:14

                Exodus 3: 14 God said to Moses, "I am who I am .[a] This is what you are to say to the Israelites:'I AM has sent me to you.' "

                Originally posted by siam View Post

                ..anyway...according to the verse in Surah 3, Jesus(pbuh) was taught by God...therefore, he was literate in scripture and language....just as he was given the ability to turn clay birds into real ones and to cure the ill, the blind....etc...
                Wasn’t Muhammad taught by Allah? Muhammad was not illiterate as in not being able to read or write; he was unschooled.

                http://submission.org/Claim_of_Muham...lliteracy.html


                Originally posted by siam View Post

                Verse 49 SAHIH INTERNATIONAL
                And [make him] a messenger to the Children of Israel, [who will say], 'Indeed I have come to you with a sign from your Lord in that I design for you from clay [that which is] like the form of a bird, then I breathe into it and it becomes a bird by permission of Allah . And I cure the blind and the leper, and I give life to the dead - by permission of Allah . And I inform you of what you eat and what you store in your houses. Indeed in that is a sign for you, if you are believers.
                As for Jesus making clay birds that could fly, this comes from a Christian book written about 140-170 AD with an overactive imagination. The thought was if Jesus was the Word of God Incarnation, who made everything, then surely He could create life as a small boy.

                http://www.earlychristianwritings.co...a-roberts.html

                If Jesus could create life at this young age and this account were true, the Christians would have used it.

                There is also a book that says that Jesus could speak as an infant; His first words were:

                3 "Mary, I am Jesus the Son of God, that word which thou didst bring forth according to the declaration of the angel Gabriel to thee, and my father hath sent me for the salvation of the world."
                Source: http://www.pseudepigrapha.com/LostBooks/infancyall.htm

                I especially like the book that has Jesus as an infant so divine that the Virgin Mary went about town making miracles with His bathwater.

                These books are considered folklore.


                Originally posted by siam View Post



                therefore---"unlettered" would not apply to Jesus Christ (pbuh) for Muslims....
                Jesus was unlettered.

                John 714 When the festival was already half over, Jesus went up into the temple complex and began to teach. 15 Then the Jews were amazed and said, “How does He know the Scriptures, since He hasn’t been trained?”

                John 7:14-15New American Standard Bible (NASB)

                14 But when it was now the midst of the feast Jesus went up into the temple, and began to teach. 15 The Jews then were astonished, saying, “How has this man become learned, having never been educated?”

                Comment


                • #38
                  You might as well try a serious discussion with Zakir Naik. At least then it would be more entertaining.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Christian3 View Post






                    Jesus was unlettered.

                    John 714 When the festival was already half over, Jesus went up into the temple complex and began to teach. 15 Then the Jews were amazed and said, “How does He know the Scriptures, since He hasn’t been trained?”

                    John 7:14-15New American Standard Bible (NASB)

                    14 But when it was now the midst of the feast Jesus went up into the temple, and began to teach. 15 The Jews then were astonished, saying, “How has this man become learned, having never been educated?”
                    Maybe you meant something different here than what I'm thinking but I tend to doubt that Jesus was illiterate. IIRC, the Jews of His time were regarded as being among the most literate people in the world. Synagogues encouraged males to have at least a rudimentary level of literacy -- especially those who were regarded as rabbis (Jesus was referred to as rabbi by his disciples, the Pharisees and the Sadducees -- though it is often translated as "teacher" or "master").

                    I'm always still in trouble again

                    "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                    "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                    "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                      Maybe you meant something different here than what I'm thinking but I tend to doubt that Jesus was illiterate. IIRC, the Jews of His time were regarded as being among the most literate people in the world. Synagogues encouraged males to have at least a rudimentary level of literacy -- especially those who were regarded as rabbis (Jesus was referred to as rabbi by his disciples, the Pharisees and the Sadducees -- though it is often translated as "teacher" or "master").
                      He did mean something different. Specifically that Jesus wasn't taught what He knew in some kind of school, but by God directly.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        The Pericope Adulterae (which we know is controversial but at the very least does reflect early church tradition) does suggest that Jesus wasn't illiterate because he was trying to write something in the dust. Granted, nobody seems to be arguing that he was, but there is that.
                        "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
                          The Pericope Adulterae (which we know is controversial but at the very least does reflect early church tradition) does suggest that Jesus wasn't illiterate because he was trying to write something in the dust. Granted, nobody seems to be arguing that he was, but there is that.
                          Luke 4:16-21 is probably an even better passage if you want to show that Jesus was literate.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            @Christian3

                            "Wasn’t Muhammad taught by Allah? Muhammad was not illiterate as in not being able to read or write; he was unschooled."

                            As mentioned before---there are 2 interpretations (opinions)...1) that he did not know how to read and write 2) that he did not know scriptures. Historically, the Prophet dictated everything to scribes---letters, treaties, the Quran....so the opinion that he did not know how to read and write could be correct....and I have no problem accepting it. My personal opinion is that the Quran is using the term in the 2nd context---that of being unknowledgeable about scripture....there have been accusations that he was "taught" the Bible by Jews and Christian scholars because the Quran makes references to Jewish rabbinical writings, the Torah, Talmuds, and others as well as Gospels, Apocrypha, and folk stories. This comprises a large body of literature.....
                            For Muslims---Jesus Christ is considered Highly spiritual and knowledgeable....the Wisdom and scripture was taught/given to Jesus Christ (pbuh) by God---but Quran is given to all humanity---as the revelation of a Surah or part of a Surah occurred, the Prophet sat among scribes and dictated it....the people who heard it, memorized it there.(Muslims do not consider the Prophet to be the "author" of the Quran) Regardless of the process of the acquisition of knowledge,...all knowledge belongs to God and comes from God. Our intellectual capacity for the acquisition of knowledge is also as God wills---some have more intellectual capacity, others have less....those who have been given more, have a higher degree of responsibility to share/teach others.


                            Revelation of Quran----

                            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y6z5BhoCkfU
                            Last edited by siam; 05-10-2017, 12:15 AM.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                              Maybe you meant something different here than what I'm thinking but I tend to doubt that Jesus was illiterate. IIRC, the Jews of His time were regarded as being among the most literate people in the world. Synagogues encouraged males to have at least a rudimentary level of literacy -- especially those who were regarded as rabbis (Jesus was referred to as rabbi by his disciples, the Pharisees and the Sadducees -- though it is often translated as "teacher" or "master").

                              I didn't say Jesus was illiterate as in could not read and write; we know Jesus could read. I said He was unlettered in that He was not taught in schools, which I think is the case of Muhammad. Muhammad was not taught in school, but he could read and write.

                              http://submission.org/Claim_of_Muham...lliteracy.html

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
                                The Pericope Adulterae (which we know is controversial but at the very least does reflect early church tradition) does suggest that Jesus wasn't illiterate because he was trying to write something in the dust. Granted, nobody seems to be arguing that he was, but there is that.
                                I didn't say Jesus was illiterate.

                                Comment

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