Messianic Prophecies Examined

[theseed]

Eliyosef, I've noticed that you have tendancy to make fun of the people that post there rather than even attempt to address anything they say. Is this because you have nothing to offer? That your confounded, and that your afraid of admitting to yourself that your position is weak? Or do you know your position is week, and you cover it up by putting other people down? Perhaps you have an inferiority complex.

If this is not true, then why don't you take the time to address what people like Heaven say?

[Menachem]

http://www.tektonics.org/guest/antianti.html

Eliyosef, have you readen above article? It's discusses Messianic prophecies, and make some good points.

I just thought, because you know your bible so well and hebrew also. Could you tell me, if possible, is there some flaws in that article?



[Genesis 3:15] [Isaiah 7:14] [Isaiah 9:6] [Micah 5:2] [Jeremiah 31:31-34] [Zechariah 12:10] [Psalm 2] [Psalm 110] [Proverbs 30:2-4] [Psalm 22] [Isaiah 53] [Daniel 9:24-27]

Above prophecies are investigated.

Genesis 3:15: One of his first mistakes was to pretend like he knew hebrew and the Hebrew bible really well.

His first mistake is in the verse itself. The word Zera( זרע ) Which the person writer is trying to establish as singular is in fact plural and the writer proves it much more when he decides to quote the TArgum of Yonatan. What the writer then does after realizing this he then diverts your attention from the usage and tries then to force the DIea of it being about Messiah down your throat....Interresting how he doesnt want to continue down the road of trying to prove Zera( זרע ) to be singular. Here is a good reference to it being plural and not singular:

Genesis 16:10 - And the angel of the L-rd said to her [Hagar], “I will greatly increase your seed ( זרעך )zar’ech) and they will not be counted for abundance.”

There word here Zar'ech is is in the second person singular feminine conjugated form.. Saying "Your Seed" Tell me is this particular word meant as singular in this instance??? The answer is no...


Also the author bases his assumption of the word Hu( הוא ) which can be singular meaning "He" or "Him" However this word also has a plural meaning as well as in "Them" or "They" for example:

Exodus 1:6,10 – (6) And Joseph died, and all his brothers, and all that generation (ha'dor ha'hu).
(10) Come on, let us deal wisely with them; lest they multiply, and it may come to pass, that, when there would be any war, they too (gam hu) should join our enemies, and fight against us; and so get them out of the land.

The wor Atah(you) in this verse can be plural also for example:

Exodus 33:3 - To a land flowing with milk and honey; for I will not go up in the midst of you since you (atah) are a stiff-necked people; lest I consume you in the way.


Deuteronomy 9:6 - And you shall know that, not because of your righteousness, the L-rd, your G-d, gives you this land to possess it; for you (atah) are a stiff-necked people.


Plus the writer also makes a false reference in this part right here:

Consider also,

Bere[color=red]EDITME[/color][color=red]EDITME[/color][color=red]EDITME[/color][color=red]EDITME[/color]h Rabba (the Midrash or Commentary on Genesis ):

"This is That Seed that is coming from another place, and who is this? This is the King Messiah."

This is not in bere[color=red]EDITME[/color][color=red]EDITME[/color][color=red]EDITME[/color][color=red]EDITME[/color] Rabbah nor is it even an actual quote of Bere[color=red]EDITME[/color][color=red]EDITME[/color][color=red]EDITME[/color][color=red]EDITME[/color] Rabbah... This person, I can tell, didn't do his homework because this is not even in the Midrash period....

Rabbi David Kimchi (lived in the south of France and lived 1160 - 1235)

"As thou wentest forth for the salvation of thy people by the hands of Meshiha, the Son of David, who shall wound satan, who is the head, the king and prince of the house of the wicked..." (Source)

This is a case of innacurately quoting of a text and substituting for words.. the actual text states:

"And you went forth to save your people by way of the King Messiah, son of David, Who shall bruise the head of the evil inclination." I have no idea where the rest of the particular portion came from ....christian tradition perhaps.....

also on the note of one thing in particular about this being about "the seed"
in particular "the seed of woman" as christians claim....This verse not just about the offspring of the humans and the serpents but about the enmity between them for what happened in the Garden of Eden. The funny thing about this is they continue going on the "seed of woman" notion as if it was something special....Let me tell you it isnt...."If you can find a person who is not born from a woman let us all know" you have just become a rich person....

The writer JPHolding doesnt make a strong enough case in this article to try and sway an uneducated Jew much less an educated one...

Psalm 22

Now on to this one and thats all I have time for today I will tackle the rest at a later time.

the author fist makes the claim of this:

You can't blame Christians for trying to fit this psalm into their crucifixion story.

Actually the christians were the ones to do it!

The Jewish renderings fo this Psalms never said "Pierced" nor anything to that affect. I can quote such a Targum right now:

Psalm 22:16. My strength has dried up like a potsherd, and my tongue is stuck to my palate; and you have brought me to the grave.
17. Because the wicked have surrounded me, who are like many dogs; a gathering of evildoers has hemmed me in, biting my hands and feet like a lion.
18. I will tell of all the wounds of my bones; those who see me despise me.
19. They divide my clothing for themselves; and for my cloak they will cast lots.


In aramaic:

ייבש היך פחר חילי׳ליחתי״׳ ולישני אדביק למוריגיי ולבית קבורתא
אמטיתני׃
מטול׳ארום דאחזרו עלי רשיעי׳סיעת חייבין״׳ דמתילין לכלביא
סגיעי כינשת מבאישין אקפוני נכתין היך כאריא אידי ורגלי׃
אחוי כל חלבשושי גרמיי׳איברי אינון׳הינון מיסתכלין מבזן
לי׃


The author then goes on to quote Glen Miller, Who is ultimately not the best to quote at all, to say this:

"1. "Like a lion" is rejected for a number of reasons by scholars: makes no sense, MT manuscript evidence against it, all the earliest translations (not interpretive paraphrases) reject it, its highly unusual form (for the 'like a lion' expression), the conclusive existence of the verb reading at Qumran, and even ancient rabbinic rejection of the meaning.

the only problem with this is that Mr. Miller doesn't explain anyhting except a perception. In actuality in hebrew the verb "to be" does not have to be in the text to be used here according to hebrew Grammer. The verse could read "Like a Lion are my hands and my feet" This gives the notion of defending oneself from evil doers..

The the writer goes on to say the DSS say peirced. News flash the DSS dont contain this Psalm the scrolls at Nechal Hever do. Also they want to say that Ka'ari( כארי ) in this verse is written as Ka'aru( כארו ) The only problem with this assessment is that the word Ka'aru is nto a word in the Hebrew language. I have spoken directly with Emmanuel Tov on this matter and this is the assessment he gave me..

There is another big error in this Psalm that also lends more credibility to my argument but they want to ignore it so i am going to move on...

The author then tries to say that the LXX says "Pierced" which is a load of crap anyway.. According to An Intermediate Greek-English Lexicon By Henry George Liddel The word here Oruskan comes form the word Orusso(to dig[a trench]) which does not have the meaning nor connotation of pierced as the Author suggests. That is the product of Christians trying to force the theology in there. The LXX that we have today is the product of Origen's and Lucian's work in the 2nd and 3rd centuries.

The he goes on to misquote the Peskita Rabbatai just as he did David Kimchi and the bere[color=red]EDITME[/color][color=red]EDITME[/color][color=red]EDITME[/color][color=red]EDITME[/color] Rabbah...

so you make the call....I will try and get to the rest of these at a later time...Shalom..

[Menachem]

Eliyosef, I've noticed that you have tendancy to make fun of the people that post there rather than even attempt to address anything they say. Is this because you have nothing to offer? That your confounded, and that your afraid of admitting to yourself that your position is weak? Or do you know your position is week, and you cover it up by putting other people down? Perhaps you have an inferiority complex.

If this is not true, then why don't you take the time to address what people like Heaven say?

I addressed everything you said and destroyed it every time...When heaven actually makes a point instead of rambling on about christian spirituality I will address it...

[lee_merrill]

Hi Eliyosef,

The the writer goes on to say the DSS say peirced. News flash the DSS dont contain this Psalm the scrolls at Nechal Hever do.

I don't know about Nechal Hever (it seems, via Google, it has a meaning in Czechoslovakian!), but the footnotes I have seen mention this reading as indeed part of the DSS, maybe these scrolls are considered by some to be part of this find? Some manuscripts have this, in any case, manuscripts that are considered not out of court.

Also they want to say that Ka'ari( כארי ) in this verse is written as Ka'aru( כארו ) The only problem with this assessment is that the word Ka'aru is not a word in the Hebrew language.

Well, then, the translators that list this as a possible translation, are wrong. It sure seems to be a proper word to me, from my limited knowledge of Hebrew, just the standard Qal form.

The LXX that we have today is the product of Origen's and Lucian's work in the 2nd and 3rd centuries.

I haven't heard this before, I'm surprised, why do people think that?

Blessings,
Lee

[Menachem]

Hi Eliyosef,

I don't know about Nechal Hever (it seems, via Google, it has a meaning in Czechoslovakian!), but the footnotes I have seen mention this reading as indeed part of the DSS, maybe these scrolls are considered by some to be part of this find? Some manuscripts have this, in any case, manuscripts that are considered not out of court.

Nehal Hever is listed by some to be part of the find but is not in the area where the DSS were found. Nehal Hever is south of where the DSS were discovered...

Well, then, the translators that list this as a possible translation, are wrong. It sure seems to be a proper word to me, from my limited knowledge of Hebrew, just the standard Qal form.

It isnt a proper word for sure. Any Hebrew Grammarian will tell you that...

I haven't heard this before, I'm surprised, why do people think that?

Blessings,
Lee

ever hear of the Hexapla....I.e. the work done by Origen to put the Hebrew Bible into Greek with extant copies and editing of his own....

http://www.irr.org/English-JW/tetra-appenJ.pdf

[lee_merrill]

Hi Eliyosef,

Nehal Hever is listed by some to be part of the find but is not in the area where the DSS were found. Nehal Hever is south of where the DSS were discovered...

Thanks, now I know more about those Sea Scrolls. I wish I knew what "Nehal Hever" means in Czech...

It isnt a proper word for sure. Any Hebrew Grammarian will tell you that...

Well, I find this difficult to understand, if standard translations (implying standard translators!) put this in as a possible reading.

ever hear of the Hexapla....I.e. the work done by Origen to put the Hebrew Bible into Greek with extant copies and editing of his own...

Yes, but don't the Christian Greek scriptures quote the Septuagint, long before Origen?

Blessings,
Lee

[Menachem]

Hi Eliyosef,


Thanks, now I know more about those Sea Scrolls. I wish I knew what "Nehal Hever" means in Czech...

Hrm...I have no Idea for that one...

Well, I find this difficult to understand, if standard translations (implying standard translators!) put this in as a possible reading.

no standard(secular and Jewish) translators put it that way and they acknowledge thatr it is not even a Hebrew word....Only Christian translators do that to try and force the jesus theology in where it isn't....

Yes, but don't the Christian Greek scriptures quote the Septuagint, long before Origen?

Blessings,
Lee

nope....The septuagint, originally, only comprised of the Torah. The prophets and writings were done later by unknown people, quite probably the Hellenists in Jewish society or even Gentiles....

[lee_merrill]

Hrm...I have no Idea for that one...

Here's some Czech, with Nechal Hever in it, courtesy of Google! As an exercise for the reader...

... a znova kamení a jedno kolo, a druhé kolo, a znova hever a znova ... Nechal jsem parťáka líčit své story a věnoval se mým mongolským sourozencům Tallemu ...

I would send it through the Internet translator, but I would have no idea which words correspond to which.

no standard(secular and Jewish) translators put it that way ...

The septuagint, originally, only comprised of the Torah. The prophets and writings were done later by unknown people...

Well, I guess we'll leave it at that...

Blessings,
Lee

[theseed]

I addressed everything you said and destroyed it every time...When heaven actually makes a point instead of rambling on about christian spirituality I will address it...

Destroyed? Hardly. And your still ignoring the fact that you are making fun of people.

[Menachem]

Destroyed? Hardly. And your still ignoring the fact that you are making fun of people.

LoL...show me where I am making fun of people then I will accept your claim....since cannot do so, except to make a ludicrous claim like that, then I must then say that you are making a false claim....

"Destroyed? Hardly"

Really?? I would love to hear why you couldn't prove your point at all?? How every verse you gave sort of got tossed away with a verse I gave and by context??? Or, The fact that you can't participate any longer because its is going way over your head or you cant convince anyone of your side???

Tell you what, Why dont you rejoin us and if you think you can redeem yourself and make an argument that sort of disproves Prayer of Judaism as a temporary substitute for sacrifices as the prophet Hoshea says...I would be more than happy to take you up on it, again...

[One Bad Pig]

http://www.tektonics.org/guest/antianti.html

This article was written not by JPH, as some have erroneously assumed, but by guest writer Wildcat. He has been made aware of the criticisms of his article, and will respond as his busy schedule allows.

[Menachem]

This article was written not by JPH, as some have erroneously assumed, but by guest writer Wildcat. He has been made aware of the criticisms of his article, and will respond as his busy schedule allows.

Sorry, I usually associate the work of that website with JPHolding....My Bad...

[shunyadragon]

Sorry, I usually associate the work of that website with JPHolding....My Bad...

Not a mistake. If the material is on the site JPH either wrote or endorses it.

[heaven]

Dear Eliyosef:

as per Psalm 22......the Roman soldiers cast lots for the cloak of Yeshua, this actually
happened as he was nailed naked to the cross.

[Sacrificial Ram]

Dear Eliyosef:

as per Psalm 22......the Roman soldiers cast lots for the cloak of Yeshua, this actually
happened as he was nailed naked to the cross.

The typical Christian translation of Psalm 22 is quite inaccurate.

The phrase "k'ari" more likely is "like a lion" -- i.e. "a band of evildoers has surrounded me, like a lion, (at) my hands and feet," and indeed, lions are mentioned elsewhere in that Psalm.

So, purposeful mistranslations do not a prophecy make.