Thread: The word made flesh!
February 26th 2011, 03:39 PM #16
Re: The word made flesh!
The whole issue of the Torah and the "oral law" or the interpretations of it are a source of contention. I have to believe that the information that Moshe received was transferred directly to his mind by God.
With Abraham, Genesis 12:1 The LORD had said to Abram “Go from your country, your people and your father’s household to the land I will show you.2 “I will make you into a great nation,
and I will bless you; I will make your name great, and you will be a blessing.3 I will bless those who bless you, and whoever curses you I will curse; and all peoples on earth
will be blessed through you.” (begins the covenant between God and Abraham), then in Genesis 15, God (1st) appeared to him in a vision (was the promise of Sarah to conceive), then as you read out Genesis 17, When Abram was ninety-nine years old, the LORD appeared to him (covenant of circumcision, the naming of Isaac, changing of Abram and Sarai name, and promise and blessing of Ishmael), Genesis 18:1 The LORD appeared to Abraham near the great trees of Mamre. (Announcement of the birth of Isaac)
When God appeared (either in a vision or some physical form) the words to Abraham had never been dictated or transmitted - even in his mind...
9 Then God said to Abraham, “As for you, you must keep my covenant, you and your descendants after you for the generations to come. 10 This is my covenant "....does this sound like dictation? or transmitted. The relationship and the way God spoke to Abraham was seen, as in the same way, with Moses.
With Moses - 11 And the LORD spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend. And he turned again into the camp: but his servant Joshua, the son of Nun, a young man, departed not out of the tabernacle. ------
Exodus 19:19 ‘and the sound of the trumpet grew louder and louder. Then Moses spoke and the voice of God answered him”
Exodus 20:18When the people saw the thunder and lightning and heard the trumpet and saw the mountain in smoke, they trembled with fear. They stayed at a distance 19and said to Moses, “Speak to us yourself and we will listen. But do not have God speak to us or we will die”
Exodus 33:9 “And it came to pass, as Moses entered into the tabernacle, the cloudy pillar descended, and stood at the door of the tabernacle, and the Lord talked with Moses
Deuteronomy 4:36, “From heaven he made you hear his voice to discipline you. On earth he showed you his great fire, and you heard his words from out of the fire”
“12 Moses said to the LORD, “You have been telling me, ‘Lead these people,’ but you have not let me know whom you will send with me. You have said, ‘I know you by name and you have found favor with me.’ 13 If you are pleased with me, teach me your ways so I may know you and continue to find favor with you. Remember that this nation is your people.”
14 The LORD replied, “My Presence will go with you, and I will give you rest.”
15 Then Moses said to him, “If your Presence does not go with us, do not send us up from here. 16 How will anyone know that you are pleased with me and with your people unless you go with us? What else will distinguish me and your people from all the other people on the face of the earth?”
17 And the LORD said to Moses, “I will do the very thing you have asked, because I am pleased with you and I know you by name.”
18 Then Moses said, “Now show me your glory.”
That's why it's said: Moses was the greatest prophet, leader and teacher
Moses was the greatest prophet, leader and teacher that Judaism has ever known. In fact, one of Rambam's 13 Principles of Faith is the belief that Moses' prophecies are true, and that he was the greatest of the prophets. He is called "Moshe Rabbeinu," that is, Moses, Our Teacher/Rabbi. Interestingly, the numerical value of "Moshe Rabbeinu" is 613: the number of mitzvot that Moses taught the Children of Israel! He is described as the only person who ever knew G-d face-to-face (Deut. 34:10) and mouth-to-mouth (Num. 12:8), which means that G-d spoke to Moses directly, in plain language, not through visions and dreams, as G-d communicated with other prophets.
Last edited by mitzi; February 26th 2011 at 03:47 PM.
February 26th 2011, 03:56 PM #17
Re: The word made flesh!
The giving of the instructions and the empowerment to live it. God himself told the people that these things were not to difficult for them! And yet the very nature of man seems to be rebellion and disobedience. It is only through the Holy Spirit that we can truely yield to God and His will.
February 26th 2011, 03:59 PM #18
Re: The word made flesh!
Eisav" comes from the Hebrew root "asah" which means doing.
Yakov is a gentle, studious person while Eisav is an outdoorsman and man of action. The Rabbis of the Talmud demonstrated how their very names illustrated the profound divergence in their personalities. "Eisav" comes from the Hebrew root "asah" which means doing. The name denotes someone who is done, meaning complete and finished. "Yakov" comes from the root "akav" which means struggling.
February 26th 2011, 07:41 PM #19
Re: The word made flesh!
James 1:22 reminds us of the mandate to not just hear the word but to do it. (Act on it) Faith is the basis and always has been. Heb. 11 We see from the beginning on how faith was a part of the actions it inspired in obedience. I suppose it has been the same for those who looked ahead to Messiah as it is for those who look back to his first coming. Without the substance of works there is little that can substanciate that faith as a reality.Show me your faith without works and Ill show you mine by my works. I believe these are the fruits we bear spiritually. Both Messiah and the Torah are embraced spiritually but it is obedience that defines that faith.
February 26th 2011, 09:39 PM #20
Re: The word made flesh!4 Zion;
James 1:22 reminds us of the mandate to not just hear the word but to do it. (Act on it) Faith is the basis and always has been. Heb. 11 We see from the beginning on how faith was a part of the actions it inspired in obedience. I suppose it has been the same for those who looked ahead to Messiah as it is for those who look back to his first coming. Without the substance of works there is little that can substantiate that faith as a reality.Show me your faith without works and Ill show you mine by my works. I believe these are the fruits we bear spiritually. Both Messiah and the Torah are embraced spiritually but it is obedience that defines that faith.
Using a couple of passages to show this would have been in Luke 1, with Mary. After Mary had received God's Word of the promise, from the angel, she was filled with the Spirit and exclaimed "May your word to me be fulfilled" and also Elizabeth (at the time of the visitation) both women were filled with the Spirit - Elizabeth exclaimed "In a loud voice" - “Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the child you will bear!" and then scripture follows with the "Song of Mary" - and that is where we begin to understand the process of receiving the word of God - "My soul glorifies the Lord and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior". The soul receives the word of God (Torah) - The Spirit (and after we receive God's word) - The Spirit (guides us) to the understanding of it, the acceptance of God's word within us (ref. to Hebrews 3 - When You Hear God's Voice), God's words to us fill our entire being - the mind - "Give ear and hear my voice, Listen and hear my words." - The word becomes "Active and Alive".
We also (read) this same feeling of God's spirit at Pentecost - "4 All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues[a] as the Spirit enabled them." I think the end remark describes that emotion of having God's Spirit, within us - "“They have had too much wine.”
Backing up, Acts 1, we read these words (when thinking about these words - think, about the emotional feel of receiving Torah at Mt Sinai (Zion) ) - He appeared to them over a period of forty days and spoke about the kingdom of God. 4 On one occasion, while he was eating with them, he gave them this command: “Do not leave Jerusalem, but wait for the gift my Father promised, which you have heard me speak about. 5 For John baptized with water, but in a few days you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.”
6 Then they gathered around him and asked him, “Lord, are you at this time going to restore the kingdom to Israel?”
7 He said to them: “It is not for you to know the times or dates the Father has set by his own authority. 8 But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.” 9 After he said this, he was taken up before their very eyes, and a cloud hid him from their sight.
Read articles, when you have the time
Understanding the Value of Inspiration link is within the title
"The Torah states regarding the building of the Mishkan (Sanctuary), "Hashem spoke to Moshe saying: Speak to the Children of Israel and let them take for Me a portion (Terumah), from every man whose heart motivates him (yidvenu leebo) you shall take My portion." In the Portion of Vayakhel the Torah states regarding the building of the Mishkan, "Every man whose heart inspired him (yeesah leebo) came; and everyone whose spirit motivated him brought the portion of Hashem..." We see from these two references that their were two types of people who provided for the building of the Mishkan - those who were "motivated by their hearts"- yidvenu leebo and those who gave with an "inspired heart"- yeesah leebo. What is the difference between these people?"
and - 4. Going Beyond Our Limits link is within the title
"The Ramban states that Positive Commandants represent the "Love of Hashem" whereas the Negative Commandments signify "the Fear of Hashem". In order for one to refrain from transgressing the Will of Hashem it is sufficient to fear Divine retribution. However, in order to perform a Positive Commandment one needs to be motivated, and love is the motivating factor. If one is imbued with love for Hashem there are no limits to one's commitment. This is why we ask Hashem every day in our prayers to place "love in our hearts" so that we will be inspired to respond unimpeded to serve Hashem."
Last edited by mitzi; February 26th 2011 at 09:46 PM.
February 27th 2011, 12:42 AM #21
Re: The word made flesh!
Yes, serving or giving can be motivated by a number of factors. Sometimes people give to look good in the eyes of others (for their own honor) others give out of a sense of compulsion (expectations of others) still others give for emotional reasons (it makes me feel good) These are all selfish blemished offerings. G-d is not satisfied to have our second best Part of us or anything less then our all! The blemished offering is an insult and offense. Sacrifice can be a painful thing unless our hearts are right before Him. Then it becomes a pleasure and even a joy! We owe Him our all and everything we have and everything we are. We come to the realization that we are nothing without Him. Everything is a gift from Him! Nothing can repay Him. To thoroughly submit means we voluntarily lay on the altar and present ourselves as living sacrifices each and every day. A sacrifice of true love for Him. All we are and all we will become. This is being lead by His Holy Spirit and not our own.
Last edited by 4 Zion; February 27th 2011 at 12:52 AM.
February 27th 2011, 01:15 PM #22
Re: The word made flesh!
2 There a centurion’s servant, whom his master valued highly, was sick and about to die. 3 The centurion heard of Jesus and sent some elders of the Jews to him, asking him to come and heal his servant. 4 When they came to Jesus, they pleaded earnestly with him, “This man deserves to have you do this, 5 because he loves our nation and has built our synagogue.” 6 So Jesus went with them.
He was not far from the house when the centurion sent friends to say to him: “Lord, don’t trouble yourself, for I do not deserve to have you come under my roof. 7 That is why I did not even consider myself worthy to come to you. But say the word, and my servant will be healed. 8 For I myself am a man under authority, with soldiers under me. I tell this one, ‘Go,’ and he goes; and that one, ‘Come,’ and he comes. I say to my servant, ‘Do this,’ and he does it.”
9 When Jesus heard this, he was amazed at him, and turning to the crowd following him, he said, “I tell you, I have not found such great faith even in Israel.” 10 Then the men who had been sent returned to the house and found the servant well.
Original post by: 4 ZionBoth
Messiah and the Torah are embraced spiritually but it is obedience that defines that faith.
- If we are to be fully obedient to the law, which is impossible, then know that grace and mercy must come into play - Teshuvah, "Repentance.” Like learning any lesson – you will not be perfect at the start – only through guidance from prayer, and those who are close to us – will we learn to know. We know that we will fall short – at times – and God knows this – but the very act of forgiveness, bonds us back to God, each time – Nehemiah 9.
I not insinuating that you should not comply with studying the law, for the law guides us to the understanding, it is a means to the path to follow, so understand the law -practice the law - but know (internally) that the law (Torah) has many layers to it. The Torah is many things but understand "why" you are obedient to God and his instructions, it is "HIS" Spirit which guides us, strengthen us to the understanding – and to the mercies of God.
(Remember) Matthew 19:16 – 28; emphasizing “25 When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished and asked, “Who then can be saved? 26 Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”
The Come and Follow Me:
And then John 17: 3 Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.
You didn't read the article that I posted for you and other; or if you did, you missed the mark – 6. Understanding the Value of Inspiration
“If a person, wants to reach this level of inspiration to be driven to acquire Torah he needs to have a special level of appreciation of Torah, which can only come about with Divine Assistance (siyata d'shmaya). We say in the blessing of the Shema, "...instill in our hearts to understand and elucidate, to listen, learn, safeguard, perform, and fulfill all the words of Your Torah's teaching with love." We pray that Hashem should inspire our hearts and give us that special level of appreciation.”
- 1 Chronicles 16
8 Give praise to the LORD, proclaim his name;make known among the nations what he has done. 9 Sing to him, sing praise to him; tell of all his wonderful acts.10 Glory in his holy name;
let the hearts of those who seek the LORD rejoice.11 Look to the LORD and his strength; seek his face always.
1 Corinthians 13
1 If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. 2 If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. 3 If I give all I possess to the poor and surrender my body to the flames,but have not love, I gain nothing.
4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.
8 Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10 but when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears. 11 When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put childish ways behind me. 12 Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.
13And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.
February 27th 2011, 01:28 PM #23
Re: The word made flesh!
re emphasizing this remark: those who were "motivated by their hearts"- yidvenu leebo and those who gave with an "inspired heart"- yeesah leebo. What is the difference between these people?"
February 27th 2011, 01:36 PM #24
Re: The word made flesh!
Article: Purpose of the TORAH - There are some very good points in this article
"What Torah really means is instruction, like the direction and discipline which a father gives to a son. Of course with police, judges and a legal system there is very little in the way of mercy and grace. But with a father teaching a child grace and mercy can abound. This basic misunderstanding about what the Torah is intended to accomplish and what it’s not supposed to be used for has confused millions of believers and the unsaved alike.
Rom 8:3 It is not possible for the Law to do some things (three points below) because of the weakness of our flesh (sinful human nature), not that the Law failed us (because it is perfect and holy Rom 7:12) but rather our sinful nature failed us. Any effort or teaching to make the Law accomplish the following three points constitutes legalism. Legalism is by definition using the Law for purposes God declares to be invalid. License is not respecting the limitations that God put on man by the Law. Both errors cripple an individual’s victorious spiritual life, legalism by adding to God’s Word and license by taking away from God’s Word."
February 27th 2011, 03:03 PM #25
Re: The word made flesh!
Verse 2 say that this one was in the beginning with God. The five books (Gensis to Deuteronomy) did not exist in the beginning (Genesis 1:1), but the Word did! In the beginning when God created the earth and put man on it there were no laws on animal sacrifice as yet. There were no laws on slavery as yet. There were no laws on unclean versus clean meats as yet. Most of the laws of Moses did not yet exist in Eden back at creation, but the Word did exist! John 1:3 goes on to say that "panta di autou egeneto," literally, all things through him came to be.It goes on to state in that verse that without him (the Word) nothing was made at all. So we have here the Word being involved in creation. He made all things. An abstract entity such as the law could not have created all things, nor did it even exist back then at the creation; so we know the Word in John 1:1-3 is a person, not an abstract idea such as law.
Verse 14 says that the Word became flesh. I don't see how the law itself would become flesh. This is talking about a man. Revelation 19:13 tells us his name is the Word of God.
February 27th 2011, 04:19 PM #26
Re: The word made flesh!Verse 14 says that the Word became flesh. I don't see how the law itself would become flesh.
God's word commands all things, whether they had existed or created them into existences - as in Isaiah 55:11 "so is my word that goes out from my mouth: It will not return to me empty, but will accomplish what I desire and achieve the purpose for which I sent it."
Isaiah 44:25 who foils the signs of false prophets and makes fools of diviners,who overthrows the learning of the wise and turns it into nonsense, 26who carries out the words of his servants and fulfills the predictions of his messengers, who says of Jerusalem, ‘It shall be inhabited,’ of the towns of Judah, ‘They shall be built, and of their ruins, ‘I will restore them,’ 27who says to the watery deep, ‘Be dry, and I will dry up your streams,’ 28who says of Cyrus, ‘He is my shepherd and will accomplish all that I please;he will say of Jerusalem, “Let it be rebuilt,”and of the temple, “Let its foundations be laid.”’
The same (exact) passage was expressed to Moshe from God, at the beginning of Exodus. Moses being afraid to face Pharaoh felt that he didn’t carry the skills of speech to deliver God's message in order to release the Israelite from the Egyptians. This is the way Moshe saw it - but God knew differently. Reading from Isaiah 44 to Exodus 11 – tells us “Who” made…. Moses said to the LORD, “Pardon your servant, Lord. I have never been eloquent, neither in the past nor since you have spoken to your servant. I am slow of speech and tongue. 11 The LORD said to him, “Who gave human beings their mouths? Who makes them deaf or mute? Who gives them sight or makes them blind? Is it not I, the LORD? 12 Now go; I will help you speak and will teach you what to say. 13 But Moses said, “Pardon your servant, Lord. Please send someone else.”
What's so remarkable about God is that He continually guides us by the Spirit. Paul tells us "Awake, O sleeper, rise up from the dead, that is, Wake up to God's word "The word "ha'azinu", generally translated as "listen", or "hear", literally means to "give ear" in Hebrew, as in to actively hear or listen and understand what is being said to oneself. In the case of the Song "Ha'azinu", this means that the Hebrew/Jewish people must actively hear or listen to the message that is being said to them by Moses so that they will be able to pass this message down to future generations." LINK
1 Corinthians 1, God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong. 28 God chose the lowly things of this world and the despised things—and the things that are not—to nullify the things that are, 29 so that no one may boast before him. 30 It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God—that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption. 31 Therefore, as it is written: “Let the one who boasts boast in the Lord.”
-All by His Word. Again, it's that verse that says: "26 His God instructs him and teaches him the right way." - When God's word goes out, He creates "that something from nothingness" - in both the outer sphere (in nature) as well as, in a personal way - ourselves. When Moses began - He was very weak in faith but look at "who" Moses became toward the end, as the Jewish people say "There has never been a great Prophet than Moses" - but from the beginnings, Moses really questioned the who, what and the why - he was the only Prophet who got away with that.
Isaiah 45:23 "By myself I have sworn, my mouth has uttered in all integrity a word that will not be revoked: Before me every knee will bow; by me every tongue will swear."
February 27th 2011, 04:30 PM #27
February 28th 2011, 04:26 AM #28
Re: The word made flesh!
February 28th 2011, 04:30 AM #29
February 28th 2011, 04:34 AM #30
By Ormly in forum Theology 201Replies: 2Last Post: February 3rd 2007, 10:24 AM
By Christian2 in forum Theology 201Replies: 33Last Post: January 5th 2007, 03:55 PM
By SteveF in forum Game RoomReplies: 7Last Post: June 2nd 2006, 12:21 PM
By Maxentius in forum Ecclesiology 201Replies: 2Last Post: October 15th 2004, 02:59 PM
By Magdalenbrother in forum Unorthodox Theology 201Replies: 37Last Post: September 11th 2004, 01:59 PM