Thread: The word made flesh!
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March 7th 2011, 02:19 AM #61
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March 7th 2011, 11:11 PM #62
Re: The word made flesh!
Hi Reece:
Yes - God's words are eternal - the law is eternal >>theses thoughts are not separate but together as one - and I've pointed "many" scriptural passages to that thought, as the Divine Degree.
"What are the decrees of God? Answer: The decrees of God are His eternal purpose, according to the counsel of His will, whereby, for His own glory, he hath fore-ordained whatsoever comes to pass.
The Westminster Shorter Catechism began with a description of God's being all-in-all from the point of view of His being and person. Now it continues with a consideration of His working all-in-all, and for introductory purposes begins with this question of the doctrine of the decree. This is indeed the true and proper place to put this doctrine in relation to the others because of our conception of God as a rational, intelligent being who is a wise builder, who has an idea of His works before He does them. It is clear that God works in time and therefore we suppose that He intended to do so before time". LINK
and here is the "Plain fact" - that God (by decree) knew beforehand what His Son had to suffer - as scripture tells us in John 17. But to quote:
"The subject of the decree, or what is decreed. The catechism gives the answer, "whatsoever comes to pass", that is to say everything that happens in the world. The Bible is clear, that the decree involves all things, and extends to all events, Eph 1:11 "...according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will." The decree reaches to sparrows, Matt 10:29, to gourds and worms, Jonah 4. In the same way that it doesn't neglect the little things, it orders the greatest, such as all changes in kingdoms and States, Dan. 4.32. Even the most random of events are ordered by the decree, Prov 16:33 "The lot is cast into the lap, but its every decision is from the LORD." Even the arbitrary contingent acts of rational beings are decreed, Acts 2:23 "This man was handed over to you by God's set purpose and foreknowledge; and you, with the help of wicked men, put him to death by nailing him to the cross."
You think, and as you had pointed toward the laws of circumcision, - which was the "Covenant of Circumcision" between God and Abraham - was not heavenly ordained? That is the contractual agreement to the promise of Salvation? And this was not "thought of" by God, in the beginning - John 1:1?
Mitzi
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March 8th 2011, 01:03 AM #63
Re: The word made flesh!
You really take a long round about road to answering simple questions. The simplicity of it is this, to say that God always knew that he was going to implement a law, is not the same thing as saying that that law always existed. Sure, God knew that Jesus was going to die on the cross before he created the world, but that doesn't mean Jesus was already dead and resurrected before he created the world. There is a difference between knowing and (or) planning for something, and that thing actually existing. So I can grant you that God always purposed that he would command Abraham to circumcise before God created the world, and not even this would mean that this law existed.
You also didn't answer my question. Can you tell me eactly who was circumcised before the earth was created? Can you tell me who practised polygamy before the earth was created? If nobody was doinng these things before God created th earth, then the laws on these things obviously were not needed, and didn't exist!
You make an issue about the fact that Moses received these laws from heaven. So what? He received manna from heaven, that doesn't mean that the bread always existed in the spirit ream, does it? Angels come from heaven, that doesn't mean they always existed. So the law coming from heaven (having a divine origin) does not mean it always existed. This is getting tiring repeating myself, so you can have the last word on it if you will. Thak you.
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March 8th 2011, 06:59 AM #64
Re: The word made flesh!
It is not a matter of before and after.
John 8:58,
πρὶν Ἀβραὰμ γενέσθαι ἐγὼ εἰμί - Before Abraham became I am
Which is a play with "ginomai" = to become and "einai" = to be.
Abraham is the circumcised one, while Abram was imprisoned in his foreskin.
So: "Before Abraham was circumcised I already was the circumcised one "
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March 9th 2011, 12:01 PM #65
Re: The word made flesh!
hahahahaahah ur kiddind!
all this means is "before Abraham (existed) I (AM)." he existed as God even before Abraham existed. this verse doesn't even mention circumcision. just because Abraham got circumcised u put circumcision in the text? how dishonestly u've dealt with the verse.
So, according to you, before Abraham was circumcised, Jesus was circumcised? well, Jesus was not yet a man, he was a spirit in heaven, and if you believe that a pirit was circumcised, too bad for u...I will not bother to continue discussing this with YOU cause u obviously aren't taking it very serious. i would be shocked to think u actually believe this...good bye
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March 9th 2011, 07:50 PM #66
Re: The word made flesh!
A couple of points :Reece1984; Also, the sabbath doesn't help you in this discussion. Genesis 2:1-3 tells us that God santified the day, that he made it holy. Notice that the day wasn't always holy in eternity, it had to be made that way. Also, the day itself did not always exist - the 7th day was created just like all the other six days were created with the heavens and the earth in Genesis 1. So the sabbathday is not the Word, the Word was not created; he was already in the beginning with God! He created all things, including the law. (John 1;3)
The Shabbat sealed creation - Shabbat as in the relationship to Creation
2 By the seventh day God had finished the work he had been doing; so on the seventh day he rested from all his work. 3 Then God blessed the seventh day and made it holy, because on it he rested from all the work of creating that he had done.
The Shabbat, as toward Redemption - Shabbat HaGadol commemorates a "great" miracle that happened on the Shabbat before Exodus.
It's not just like any other day - Christ took the disciplines and celebrated the Passover - Passion week when Christ was crucified. Jesus died and was taken off the cross on the day of the Jewish sabbath......
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March 10th 2011, 02:27 AM #67
Re: The word made flesh!
Next verse, John 8:59,
Then took they up stones to cast at him
They didn't understand it either.
This because wisdom , "chochmah", has the same gematria as misunderstanding "i-hawanah".
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RabbiGinsburgh Rabbi Y. Ginsburgh
"Wisdom," 73, is equal to "misunderstanding." The world was created with wisdom that gives rise to misunderstanding.
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Wisdom we know from Revelation 13:18,
Here is the wisdom. Let him that has understanding count the number of the beast
The beast = the uncircumcised one.
Since 666 is gematria of "yom shishi", sixth day, while there is written "yom hashishi", the sixth day; so "yom shishi" + "heh", the letter that was added to Abram (Genesis 17:5)
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March 10th 2011, 04:06 AM #68
Re: The word made flesh!
For the record:
As the resurrected one Jesus is circumcised -- like also he has holes in his hands and side, John 20:27.
The resurrected one is the eternal one.
(Eternity being not the same as endless time).
That's why I don't have to be circumcised. Happy in my foreskin.
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March 10th 2011, 06:27 PM #69
Re: The word made flesh!
I don't see how this issue of whether the things that were part of God's plan for the human race before the creation needed to be in physical applications like circumcision in the spiritual realm. The fact that they were in God's mind and plan that would be implemented at some point in history for specific purposes and were not being manifested in the flesh seems to much like Messiahs existence prior to His incarnation. The events were a reality prior to actually taking physical form. We conceive a thought and then go about trying to make it work or create something. As humans the thought is potential, but to God it does not have the same form. If he conceives it and wills it. IT WILL HAPPEN! To our finite minds a plan does not constitute reality. We are limited to the flesh and cognative organ physically. The creator has no such limits. Even the issue of time is relevant. God says events will take place and speaks to His prophets. I belive it is a done deal!Even though it has not happened in the physical Yet. It will happen just as he foretold. Does he know us and the choices we will make prior to our conception? I believe He does! He is the creator of time and he is not influenced by it or under its limitations we are flesh and under those constrictions as part of His creation.
I perceive in God's mind thought = reality. He conceived creation then spoke it into (existence). I think I am understanding Mitzi's earlier point about hearing and the spoken word. I do belive the Word was spoken audably to Moses , spoken into a form to be applied physically. To hear and do! We may individually hear God speak directly to our minds also as we pray and meditate also. God is not limited to our ears or auditory organs. But the spoken word was manifested and then became the written word to physically hand down from generation to generation. Not just conveyed in thought.
I have to say Reece i am not understanding the physical having to pre exist in physical form in the spiritual realm prior to its being physically manifested. Maybe i'm misunderstanding the point you are trying to make here.I don't mean to misinterpret your comments. But I am not getting your intent I guess.
We can not entirely know the mind of God while in this flesh. His ways are far above what we can even comprehend. Yet we seem to be trying to struggle with that reality.
BlessingsLast edited by 4 Zion; March 10th 2011 at 06:54 PM.
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March 14th 2011, 09:39 PM #70
Re: The word made flesh!
Excellent point -
"Even though G-d's plan hasn't happened in the physical, yet!" – G-d’s word is decreed out, as being brought forth into the realm of reality (physical)! As well as His plan for salvation - was realized within Christ.
As to the meaning of creation, G-d said….referring to the 10 utterances – The word was brought forth – ordered and decreed! Creation was by the Law of decree (a set of order) but formed by Wisdom (Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters. ) and as scripture notes, in vv 7:26, “For she is the brightness of eternal light, and the unspotted mirror of God’s majesty, and the image of his goodness” as John 1:1, states “ 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4 In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind. 5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.” When reading the first half of Genesis (Genesis 1), God said let there be light – 3 “And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light. 4 God saw that the light was good, and he separated the light from the darkness. 5 God called the light “day,” and the darkness he called “night.” And there was evening, and there was morning—the first day.” …. Neither the sun nor the moon were created until the 4th day of creation “16 God made two great lights—the greater light to govern the day and the lesser light to govern the night. He also made the stars. 17 God set them in the vault of the sky to give light on the earth, 18 to govern the day and the night, and to separate light from darkness. And God saw that it was good. 19 And there was evening, and there was morning—the fourth day.”
As the prophets vocalized by saying "LISTEN" and "HEAR" ....Ha'azinu (Deuteronomy 32) Listen and Hear: Heaven and Earth: Listen, O heavens, and I will speak; and let the earth hear the words of my mouth. (Devarim 32:1) - A decree went forth. And in Mark 12:29 “"The most important one," answered Jesus, "is this: 'Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one. Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength. The second is this: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no commandment greater than these." … "Well said, teacher," the man replied. "You are right in saying that God is one and there is no other but him.” And in Then Mark 4:9, Jesus said, "He who has ears to hear, let him hear."
The first facet of Torah acceptance is what the Bnai Yisroel refer to as "doing" the Torah, or "Na'aseh". The second is what they called "Nishma", or hearing the Torah -- with the connotation of understanding what is being heard. (The verb "Sh'ma", which is usually translated as "listen" or "hear" can also mean "understand") LINK
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March 14th 2011, 11:22 PM #71
Re: The word made flesh!
Shalom!
Yes I can see that as well.
We first hear the word, and then act on it, and in the process of obedience we understand and it takes root. This becomes part of our faith life.
It is much the same in the process of being trained for a task/job. We are instructed what is expected and then apply the instruction with hands on experience, and in that process learn the task/job quickly. (on the job training...lol!) There is a reason many employers use this technique to train new employees... It works!
" Be not just hearers of the word, but doers also!...and faith without works is dead!"
Hearing and understanding requires an action or it has no life.
Blessings!Last edited by 4 Zion; March 14th 2011 at 11:37 PM.
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March 19th 2011, 12:01 PM #72
Re: The word made flesh!
We first hear the word, and then act on it, and in the process of obedience we understand and it takes root. This becomes part of our faith life.- Hi 4Zion:
......But what makes this possible - to hear the word, to act on it and to be obedient - the soul then can understand the word (as to absorb the word - to taste the words "Pleasing words are like honey, sweet to the soul and new life to the bones") All of this - for the soul must yearn for God's words to take root! (and as Genesis 1 says "God saw all that he had made, and it was very good.")
Remember on another thread (I-53):
Also mentioning, "eish shahor al gabei eish lavan", refers to "black fire upon white fire."
TWO PERSPECTIVES:
1. The Alter Rebbe explains [4] that there are two levels of 'white' and 'black fire': 1) white and black from the perspective of a teacher, and 2) white and black from the perspective of a student.
2. Engraved letters are recessed into a surface, like vessels that can receive light. Thus, when we say, "formed light," we touch the arm tefillin. Embossed letters, protrude from a surface, and therefore cannot receive light. Thus, when we say, "created darkness," we touch the head tefillin.[5]
My favorite part of scripture or when I read from scripture, some quotes will begin with "Hear" or in one passage, it states; "23 Listen and hear my voice; pay attention and hear what I say." From the 1st of the two perspectives - the light of knowledge, is to listen and then do or as it is said, do and then understand - "Naaseh V’Nishmah" - "We will do and then we will attempt to understand."
Perhaps the hidden things (or key knowledge) was never given but not the knowledge of "who" God is, was not excluded - (although) Matt 6:22 "The lamp of the body is the eye. If your eye is sound, your whole body will be filled with light;23 but if your eye is bad, your whole body will be in darkness. And if the light in you is darkness, how great will the darkness be." This verse is similar to the 2nd perspective - Embossed letters, protrude from a surface, and therefore cannot receive light. Thus, when we say, "created darkness," we touch the head tefillin."
Many interpretations to "black fire upon white fire." - click on the paraphrase in-between the brackets to get to the website.
LINK
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Read below - When God's Spirit is present within us (we unite both with Christ and God's Spirit: John 17: 21 that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. 22 I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one— 23 I in them and you in me—so that they may be brought to complete unity.)- His Spirit continually creates as in the very 1st day. God continually creates and renews... Jesus said to them, "Since my Father continues to do his work, I am free to do my work as well." Christ was not (only) speaking of the physical creation but the spiritual that is within us....like with Moses, Isaiah 28:26 "His God instructs him and teaches him the right way." and Psalm 119:33
Teach me, LORD, the way of your decrees,
that I may follow it to the end.
34 Give me understanding, so that I may keep your law
and obey it with all my heart.
35 Direct me in the path of your commands,
for there I find delight.
36 Turn my heart toward your statutes
and not toward selfish gain.
37 Turn my eyes away from worthless things;
preserve my life according to your word.[c]
38 Fulfill your promise to your servant,
so that you may be feared.
39 Take away the disgrace I dread,
for your laws are good.
40 How I long for your precepts!
In your righteousness preserve my life.
Amen!!!!
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Spiritual Pyromania
By Mendel Kalmenson
Yehudah Avner, who served on the staff of five Israeli prime ministers, once asked the Rebbe, "As a Jewish leader, what are your ambitions?"
"Yehudah," said the Rebbe, "what we call a candle is merely a piece of wax with a string down the middle. When does it really become a candle? When a flame ignites the string." The Rebbe continued: "The wax is the body of a human being, and the wick is the soul. When the flame of Divine wisdom ignites the soul, the person becomes complete. That is what I try to do—to ignite souls."
Aaron, then, who lit the Menorah, represents one who lights souls.
G‑d said to Moses, "Speak to Aaron and say to him: 'When you kindle [beha'alotcha] the lamps…"
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Read scriptural points: - “The Holy Spirit will come on you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you."
- "1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters."
- "“Do not leave Jerusalem, but wait for the gift my Father promised, which you have heard me speak about. 5 For John baptized with water, but in a few days you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.”
- 1 When the day of Pentecost came, they were all together in one place. 2 Suddenly a sound like the blowing of a violent wind came from heaven and filled the whole house where they were sitting. 3 They saw what seemed to be tongues of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them. 4 All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues[a] as the Spirit enabled them.
- "5 Now there were staying in Jerusalem God-fearing Jews from every nation under heaven. 6 When they heard this sound, a crowd came together in bewilderment, because each one heard their own language being spoken."
- "16 The LORD said to Moses: “Bring me seventy of Israel’s elders who are known to you as leaders and officials among the people. Have them come to the tent of meeting, that they may stand there with you. 17 I will come down and speak with you there, and I will take some of the power of the Spirit that is on you and put it on them. They will share the burden of the people with you so that you will not have to carry it alone."
- Hi 4Zion:
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March 19th 2011, 12:15 PM #73
Re: The word made flesh!
Matt 6:22 "The lamp of the body is the eye. If your eye is sound, your whole body will be filled with light;23 but if your eye is bad, your whole body will be in darkness. And if the light in you is darkness, how great will the darkness be."
the soul is constantly (Steadfast in purpose, loyalty, or affection; faithful.) looking for God's enlightenment....Read what the article tells us:
Hebrew for "when you step up,” ....... 'When you kindle [beha'alotcha] the lamps…"
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March 19th 2011, 02:08 PM #74
Re: The word made flesh!
The misleading "word made flesh" stems from Vulgata:
http://www.intratext.com/IXT/LAT0001/_PV0.HTM
14 et Verbum caro factum est
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March 19th 2011, 10:35 PM #75
Re: The word made flesh!
"The Latin incarnatio (in: caro, flesh) corresponds to the Greek sarkosis, or ensarkosis, which words depend on John (1:14) kai ho Logos sarx egeneto, "And the Word was made flesh". These two terms were in use by the Greek Fathers from the time of St. Irenćus--i.e. according to Harnack, A.D. 181-189 (cf. Irenaeus, "Adv. Haer." III, 19, n. i.; Migne, VII, 939). The verb sarkousthai, to be made flesh, occurs in the creed of the Council of Nicaea (cf. Denzinger, "Enchiridion", n. 86). In the language of Holy Writ, flesh means, by synecdoche, human nature or man (cf. Luke 3:6; Romans 3:20). Francisco Suárez deems the choice of the word incarnation to have been very apt. Man is called flesh to emphasize the weaker part of his nature. When the Word is said to have been incarnate, to have been made Flesh, the Divine goodness is better expressed whereby God "emptied Himself . . . and was found in outward bearing (schemati) like a man" (Philippians 2:7); He took upon Himself not only the nature of man, a nature capable of suffering and sickness and death, He became like a man in all save only sin (cf. Francisco Suárez, "De Incarnatione", Praef. n. 5). The Fathers now and then use the word henanthropesis, the act of becoming man, to which correspond the terms inhumanatio, used by some Latin Fathers, and "Menschwerdung", current in German. The mystery of the Incarnation is expressed in Scripture by other terms: epilepsis, the act of taking on a nature (Hebrews 2:16): epiphaneia, appearance (2 Timothy 1:10); phanerosis hen sarki, manifestation in the flesh (1 Timothy 3:16); somatos katartismos, the fitting of a body, what some Latin Fathers call incorporatio (Hebrews 10:5); kenosis, the act of emptying one's self (Philippians 2:7)."
LINK
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