Evolution of The Beetles

[magellan004]

I would like to introduce you to The Beetles. These little guys are going to walk us through a hypothetical simulation of evolution.

It all started in Year tx with about 10 brown Beetles living on an island that had no other beetles but was very close to the mainland.
These Beetles produce children about once a year and only have one breeding season..
Each beetle has an identifier on it which shows names of its two parents and their parents etc. . This identifier system is passed on to children so the ‘first generation’ children have a record or their own parents (the tx generation) and their parent’s parents etc.

Millions of years later , in say year ty, there are 20 Beetles.
Professor Smithers Bones examines all of the Beetles There are some brown Beetles. The rest are green.
He can trace each beetle back through time.

But something puzzles the good Professor- Have these Beetles evolved and are there different 'Species' of Beetles?

Any ideas how we might answer these questions?


Magellan

[Catholicity]

Help Help!!! Help from the Beatles!!!

[rogue06]

Help Help!!! Help from the Beatles!!!

Now, now C26. He distinctly asked about Beatle evolution. Perhaps this'll help:

beatleevo.jpg

[Catholicity]

Now, now C26. He distinctly asked about Beatle evolution. Perhaps this'll help:

beatleevo.jpg

Of course next thing "clowny" will want to know is how the "Monkees" became the "Beatles"

"Ed Sullivan" could answer that.

[ericmurphy]

I would like to introduce you to The Beetles.

This should be entertaining.

These little guys are going to walk us through a hypothetical simulation of evolution.

Not exactly. They're going to walk us through a "hypothetical simulation" of Magellan's absurdly mistaken caricature of evolutionary theory.

It all started in Year tx with about 10 brown Beetles living on an island that had no other beetles but was very close to the mainland.
These Beetles produce children about once a year and only have one breeding season..
Each beetle has an identifier on it which shows names of its two parents and their parents etc. . This identifier system is passed on to children so the ‘first generation’ children have a record or their own parents (the tx generation) and their parent’s parents etc.

Millions of years later , in say year ty, there are 20 Beetles.

So in millions of years, we go from 10 beetles to 20 beetles. That, to you, is a realistic "simulation" of anything? And, let's see. Millions of years means millions of generations. Each generation doubles the number of ancestors: two parents, four grandparents, eight great-grandparents, etc. How many years back to these beetles have a record of all their ancestors written on their backs? Given that going back even 60 generations will give you billions of ancestors?

Just how big are these beetles, Magellan?

Professor Smithers Bones examines all of the Beetles There are some brown Beetles. The rest are green.
He can trace each beetle back through time.

But something puzzles the good Professor- Have these Beetles evolved and are there different 'Species' of Beetles?

Any ideas how we might answer these questions?

Well, if there were no "green" alleles present in the original population, but how there are now (how many, Magellan? any ideas?), then "evolution," defined as "a change in heritable characters in populations over time," has happened.

Are there different species? Well, I don't know, Magellan. Are the two varieties of beetle identical aside from color? Can the "green" beetles interbreed with the "brown" beetles? Are we allowed to know, for the purposes of this "simulation"? Or are we supposed to guess?

So far your "hypothetical simulation of evolution" is a bit of a bust. The questions you're asking are more or less on the level of asking, "What's the difference between a duck?"

[ericmurphy]

Now, now C26. He distinctly asked about Beatle evolution. Perhaps this'll help:

Actually, he asked about Beetle evolution. Presumably from this:



to this:

[rogue06]

Actually, he asked about Beetle evolution. Presumably from this:



to this:

But of course. Then maybe this'll help then:

evolution-ad.jpg
Appears they went through a period of stasis

[Tiggy]

Actually, he asked about Beetle evolution. Presumably from this:



to this:

C'mon eric, that's a misleading rabbit trail from you. Clownshoes distinctly asked about brown Beetles



- T

[rogue06]

C'mon eric, that's a misleading rabbit trail from you. Clownshoes distinctly asked about brown Beetles



- T

Let's not forget the green ones

[Tiggy]

The blue ones are extinct

Rare ‘M&M’s Beetle’ Declared Extinct, Snackish Zookeeper to Blame

A rare species of beetle that shared a close morphology with a popular candy known as M&M’s has been declared extinct after an incident last week involving a snackish zookeeper at the San Diego Zoo. While cleaning the Hall of Insects and Amphibians at a late hour, 14-year zoo employee Tim Williams developed a hunger that would prove fatal to the specimens of Deliciousi emanemus, commonly known as the “M&M’s Beetle,” housed at the zoo. They were the last two of their kind.

“I was thinking about food while cleaning the cages, and without even noticing what I was doing must have just placed them in my mouth and then they were gone,” said a distraught Williams. “I didn’t even realize what I’d done until it was over.”

http://scientificenquirer.wordpress....eper-to-blame/

Don't know about the brown and green ones though.

- T

[Theostudent]

Imagine if the beetles had not evolved, then I would not be able to listen to this amazing gift from John.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-b7qaSxuZUg

[magellan004]

So in millions of years, we go from 10 beetles to 20 beetles. That, to you, is a realistic "simulation" of anything? And, let's see. Millions of years means millions of generations. Each generation doubles the number of ancestors: two parents, four grandparents, eight great-grandparents, etc. How many years back to these beetles have a record of all their ancestors written on their backs? Given that going back even 60 generations will give you billions of ancestors?

Birds have been busily pecking.

Just how big are these beetles, Magellan?

Their size is only limited by your mind.

Well, if there were no "green" alleles present in the original population, but how there are now (how many, Magellan? any ideas?), then "evolution," defined as "a change in heritable characters in populations over time," has happened.

Professor Smithers Bones is of the old school - magnifying glass and tweed coat. He doesn't have an Allele Detector. Neither did Darwin.

SmithersBones.jpgPicture of Professor SmithersBones

The point is can we say whether the Beetles have evolved without your fictitious Allele Dectector?

Are there different species? Well, I don't know, Magellan. Are the two varieties of beetle identical aside from color? Can the "green" beetles interbreed with the "brown" beetles? Are we allowed to know, for the purposes of this "simulation"? Or are we supposed to guess?

Are the two varieties of beetle identical aside from color? Does it matter?
How many features do you need to make a determination about Species?

Can the "green" beetles interbreed with the "brown" beetles? How might we test this? I ask because I understand -
1 Hybrids might muck things up and
2. Long tern viability is important.

But let's say -
1. The only apparent difference is green/brown color and
2. The brown Beetles do appear to mate with the green Beatles.
Given that, are these diferent species?

These are not trick questions by the way. We have only started our journey with the Beetles.

Magellan



PS Volkswagen - Did I detect a natural nested hierarchy in the development of the VW?

[ericmurphy]

Birds have been busily pecking.

First, no. No population that never grows beyond 20 individuals would persist for millions of years. Ludicrously unrealistic.

Their size is only limited by your mind.

No, it's limited by reality. You might have noticed that there are no beetles that are a foot long. There's a reason for that. So, in other words, you can't have beetles with the names of billions of ancestors written on them.

Professor Smithers Bones is of the old school - magnifying glass and tweed coat. He doesn't have an Allele Detector. Neither did Darwin.

Gee, Magellan, I don't remember mentioning alleles. I said, "a change in heritable characters in populations over time. I'm sure your red-neck caricature of a scientist can observe characters just as well as Darwin could.

The point is can we say whether the Beetles have evolved without your fictitious Allele Dectector?

You're the only one talking about alleles, Magellan. But what, you're just banning any ability to detect alleles, which Mendel could do without any knowledge of chromosomes, DNA, or any notion of how traits were inherited?

Are the two varieties of beetle identical aside from color? Does it matter?

Yes, Magellan, it does matter. See below.

How many features do you need to make a determination about Species?

With living species? Just one: can they interbreed, or can't they?

Can the "green" beetles interbreed with the "brown" beetles? How might we test this? I ask because I understand -
1 Hybrids might muck things up and
2. Long tern viability is important.

I'm sure you can tell after a year or so whether or not these beetles (even insects with a year-long generation time) can produce viable offspring.

And in case you've forgotten, Magellan: evolutionary theory predicts it will sometimes be difficult to tell if two morphotypes are the same species or not. Creationism, on the other hand, predicts it should never be difficult to tell.

But let's say -
1. The only apparent difference is green/brown color and
2. The brown Beetles do appear to mate with the green Beatles.
Given that, are these diferent species?

Nope.

These are not trick questions by the way. We have only started our journey with the Beetles.

They're not trick questions; just stupid ones.

And so far, our "journey" hasn't managed to back out of the garage yet. Bummer; looks like four flat tires.

PS Volkswagen - Did I detect a natural nested hierarchy in the development of the VW?

With two vehicles? How do you make a nested hierarchy with two vehicles, Magellan?

[ericmurphy]

Also note that so far Magellan's little "simulation" here makes no mention of selection pressures.

And no, Magellan, saying the "birds have been busy" does not amount to selection pressure. Can you figure out why?

[magellan004]

Also note that so far Magellan's little "simulation" here makes no mention of selection pressures.

And no, Magellan, saying the "birds have been busy" does not amount to selection pressure. Can you figure out why?

There are about 2000 to 3000 pandas. Such a low number means (according to you) that -
1. Pandas did not evolve or
2. If we know what the selection pressures were that brought them to this low number then they did evolve.

I hope that's what you meant.

Magellan