Thread: Israel the olive tree!
March 5th 2011, 04:42 PM #16
March 5th 2011, 09:22 PM #17
March 5th 2011, 10:13 PM #18
Re: Israel the olive tree!
Just wanted to say I realized i was quoting from Mitzi's post, took the quotes off your post though. I also want to thank you for your post. We are all in a state of learning and development. Not one of us has arrived or has all the answers. If we think we have arrived I think we are in big trouble! Some members on here have a lot of formal education in religious schools or personal studies. Lots of accumulated knowledge. That is fine and we can all learn on here. But wisdom and spiritual understanding will always come through the Holy Spirit . The Apostle Paul was very highly educated and knowledgeable in religion. But in his own words " I count it as dung"! Though Paul was well meaning and sincere I believe his knowledge and position caused him to become prideful and it took intervention on the LORD's part to finally get him on God's path. I know education is a useful tool but in the end it wont count for much when we stand before the Creator. So we keep learning and asking God for wisdom submitting ourselves humbly before Him.
The following tWebber says Amen to 4 Zion for this useful Post:
March 6th 2011, 06:10 PM #19
Re: Israel the olive tree!Originally post by 4 Zion;
Thank you all for the comments to this post. Always good to see the perspectives of other posters. Just wanted to reply briefly as my time will be limited today for Shabbat
Yes the main doctrines are of course foundational to the churchs. Virgin birth, Diety of Jesus, heaven, hell, and so on. Sometimes the means of salvation by faith would be interpreted differantly by differant groups. For instance keeping and participating in the sacraments as a means of salvation. Or being part of a particular faith and accepting the theology of one specific church and excluding others outside of it. This is what lead to much persecution through the ages. Almost all the countries of of western Europe were part of the Roman empire during its hayday. The influence of the Roman empire can be seen in the archetecture and road systems throughout Europe to this day . Much of the progress of Europe was greatly due to the Roman /Greek culture. Education and language being a huge part of that. The Greek mind and education of that time was very analytical and that aspect of education of course influenced the entire western cultures and the offshoots of it through history. US, Canada, S. America ,Africa etc. Our American educational systems were founded on the Greek mindset predominately as are the educations of our Seminaries and Bible colleges.The use of Greek as a trade language throughout was essential and added the spread of christianity throughout the western world and parts of the east orthedox world as well. These are all good things for the most part as Europe was basically made up of pagan barbarian tribes prior to this. Geece was Pagan as well just more advanced as a civilization and technology.It is obvious that God uses even the ungodly to accomplish purposes. Well theologies evolve and sometimes it is over many hundreds of years. Influence of church fathers and theologians being primary influences.
Where do I begin with all of this? - I'll start by quoting from out of your post:
"Education and language being a huge part of that. The Greek mind and education of that time was very analytical and that aspect of education of course influenced the entire western cultures and the offshoots of it through history. US, Canada, S. America ,Africa etc. Our American educational systems were founded on the Greek mindset predominately as are the educations of our Seminaries and Bible colleges."
Again, not the fault of the church - but, you should be aware of the Middle East region - on whether or not they have to learn the Koran before or after they have to learn scripture from the Christian bible....same thought. You know the animosity towards that and learning Arabic before you learn Hebrew. I believe it is or was enforced - again people who grew up in that region of the world are very well educated and are well grounded in scripture before the age of 13.......
Blame isn't really the issue as far as the aspect that each group needs to take responsibility for their own theologies. The cleaning out process has barely begun as far as I can see. I suppose the reformation can be viewed in that light. The sexual abuses of involved with the doctrine of celebacy should have been delt with many centuries ago but it wasn't until it became a public outcry because of media coverage. That this church began to deal with it. The persecutions and slaughter of untold numbers of peoples that were not of the catholic faith included forced conversions and death to those they held dominance over. The Jewish people of Spain are another example. Convert or leave! If you didn't do so you would be tortured to death or recant. The complacency during the Nazi holocost is also an issue. Even the crusades continue to impact ministries to Muslims. These are not superficial things that can be delt with with a simple statement from the leadership of a specific "church". Having said that i dont expect anything beyond what has been acknowedged publically by the Papal see. But the issues are really about acountability and the whole church is involved with this to bring light. These are issues that have affected humans throughout history and continue to plague the ministries of Christianity to this day. The world outside sees "the church" as a whole. So when Muslims or Jews or even athiests look at crimes against humanity they lump Christianity into the same group. All of us are impacted to some degree. The point is we can't atone for these things. But we all bear the effects of them when we minister to others. I specifically see it in ministering to Jewish people and trying to convince them the Jesus of Christianity is their true Messiah.
When you are witnessing to someone - do you wear a collar to identify yourself, as a priest? Obviously, you don't – so how can you say that you can understand the suffering in the same way. People, I think, can discern for themselves between denominations over another - An example: A Jehovah witness comes to a particular persons' door to witness to them face to face. As they approach the door to knock; someone from within side the house opens' the door. The person at the house (A Baptist) who is being witness to ends up witnessing back to the Jehovah witness instead - the reply back from the person who is Baptist; study your bible. There are other examples -
I'm sorry - the Catholic Church is not the only denomination that makes or breaks the Christian faith. It's by Individuals - who do that! And should be seen – as such, but that is not the case – they consider these individual as a reflection of the congregation – and if that be the case, then we are all in trouble for the same offense. As for the sexual impropriety and/or harassment and/or assault - I believe, a painful and a very sick "disease", ran rapid throughout all denominations, as well - The Catholic Church authority is not a sole proprietor (as the church – it’s authority – it administrators, all believing members are those who uphold the message of Christ and His teachings – as do all other congregations – they are the ones’ that hold the “Keys” to the storehouse of both the old and the new – (see also Matthew 16:19) So – to the ones’ who abuse that right – and as Jesus said it himself on how they will be dealt with (Luke 12:35–48, Luke 12:43, Psalm 123:2, Mark 13:35)
The church only enforces their disciplinary actions within its own congregation as well as to the calling out to their members to pursue Christ’s word – as to seek and to follow him. There are many members that I truly admirer for their spiritual hard work and dedication to the service of Christ, they are the faithful servants of Christ. So “How” can I look down on any member who truly seeks the Lord …. All of us, as being a congregation unto Christ, are witnessing the world going through some very troubling times – we should look toward each other as all are going through the same enduring and painful experience – as the Christian calling to respond back to each other. The Church never gave the impression that they will set the pace for others– as far as I know that will be at the discretion of the authorities from within every Christian faith. Yes, I agree, we all must be actively participating and also be responsible for how our church members fulfill their commitments and obligations. However, it is very unfortunate, that the Church will somehow be the one who will set the stage and be highlighted knowing that there have been a gross amount of sexual misconduct from within the church leaderships! - The Church has taken a very "severe action" against their priests - and others members....the respond from its’ members to respond back is wide spread…..Amen!
How you personally accept "Jesus" as your personal "Savior" - how does "one" respond back. The whole idea of Torah - is out of Love. A very famous story about Hillel:
"Teach me the Torah while I stand on one foot."
Of course Hillel, too, saw that the heathen was scoffing, but calmly and patiently he said:
"You want to learn a great deal quickly, don't you? Very well, I shall teach you the Torah while you stand on one foot. This is our Holy Torah: 'What is hateful to you, do not do unto others.'"
Yes Messiah is the Key! And yes the gospel is clearly displayed in types and foresahadowings through out the word Tanak Both the Law and the Prophets point to Him. They are all esential to our complete understanding of Messiah and His continued ministry throughout the ages. The tendancy to simply take what is written in the NT and discard most of the earlier scripture unless portions are used to support specific theologies leads to a distorted perspective in my opinion.Most have built theologies based entirely on interpretations of the epistles and gospels. Sometimes taking passages completely out of context to support views. I see this as wreckless theology. The entire body of scripture is a whole from Genesis to Revelation. The apostles had no scripture to teach from and frame the understanding of Jesus and salvation except the existing OT scriptures. I think that perspective is often missed and as a result many are at odds with the OT.
The primary issue which was addressed related to the requirement of circumcision, as the author of Acts relates, but other matters arose as well, as the Apostolic Decree indicates. The dispute was between those, such as the followers of the "Pillars of the Church," led by James, who believed, following his interpretation of the Great Commission, that the church must observe the Torah, i.e. the rules of traditional Judaism, and Paul of Tarsus, who believed there was no such necessity. (See also Supersessionism, New Covenant, Antinomianism, Hellenistic Judaism, Paul of Tarsus and Judaism)
Again, 4 Zion, what was the deciding factor on the laws for Gentile? - What pertain to them personally according to the law? There are some laws that applied to the Gentile, the seven Noachide Laws? What was it that was taken out and what was it that was replaced...
The apostle Peter and Paul, Agreed on the subject - and I have to fully agree with this (totally) “Brothers, you know that some time ago God made a choice among you that the Gentiles might hear from my lips the message of the gospel and believe. 8 God, who knows the heart, showed that he accepted them by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as he did to us. 9 He did not discriminate between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith. 10 Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of Gentiles a yoke that neither we nor our ancestors have been able to bear? 11 No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are.”
Ok I'm running out of time so will
send my blessings for a peaceful Sabbath.
March 7th 2011, 03:55 AM #20
Re: Israel the olive tree!
Thank you Mitzi, and your points are well taken. I had to smile about the question about the messianic judaism faith. The answer is yes! LOL!
So we believe in all the basic orthedox doctrines of the Christian faith and still embrace Torah as God's standard of rightiusness for our daily lives. As a result Christians tend to reject us because of Torah and most Jews because of Jesus. That seems ironic to me in a lot of ways.Because we dont believe it is an either or option.We are not trying to earn our salvation by being Torah observant. Christians tend to mistake us as legalists or judaisers and Jews tend to see us as some sort of Christian sect. So I guess we get to thoroughly confuse both sides! We believe we are simply restoring the Hebrew roots of our faith. I guess that makes us orphans, huh?
Ok that should cause enough disruption for one post!
Blessings on y' all
March 7th 2011, 10:50 PM #21
Re: Israel the olive tree!
and I'll repeat, I hope you had a very good Shabbos -
My beloved, come to greet the bride; let us receive the Sabbath.
The only God caused us to hear “keep” and “remember” in one utterance; the Eternal is One and God’s name is One, for honor and glory and praise.
Come, let us go to greet the Sabbath, which is the source of blessing. From its opening it is pouring as from the beginning; the end of Creation
from the beginning of thought.
Wake up! Wake up! For your light has come! Rise up my light! Awake! Awake! Sing! The Eternal’s glory is revealed to you!
Enter in peace, O Crown of Your husband; enter in joy and exultation. Come, O Bride! Come, O Bride! To the faithful people of the treasured nation.
March 22nd 2011, 09:45 PM #22
Re: Israel the olive tree!
An Open Letter to the House of Judah
These are indeed terrifying times, when the tenants of Islam are threatening to take over the governments of all of the surrounding Arab nations. For centuries crusades were fought by the Christians to secure the land of Israel, however for the most part, we didn't care very much for the Jews themselves. However, with the jihadist Arabs courting the political Left, the Jews and the Christians, (together hated by both the Arabs and the Left), are finding ourselves more and more in the same " Judeo-Christian" boat. It is as if the lost Ten Tribes of Israel, scattered amongst the Gentiles but associated through Christianity, are finally recognizing and joining, by default, their long forgotten brothers the Judeans, to remove the "Philistines." (Compare Isaiah 11:10-15 with Ezekiel 37:16-22) Forgive me for mixing religion with politics, but it increasingly feels like "the end is near" and that is what the "end of times" is all about, isn't it?
However, have no fear my brothers of the House of Judah, for as you can see, you are not alone, for we are still out here. We are widely dispersed throughout the Gentile nations into which we have been scattered, but we are still here, and there are millions of us. Most of us are, as yet, still unaware it's true, but many of us know exactly who we are! We are your brothers Israel, descendants of the so called "lost" Ten Tribes, but we are not so lost as you may think. We have been gathered, exactly how the Prophets of THE ALMIGHTY have foretold, into an association, a loose federation, under the "ensign" that is a Branch of Jesse.
"And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots: And the spirit of THE ALMIGHTY shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of THE ALMIGHTY;" (Isaiah 11:1,2) "And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious. And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea. And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth. The envy also of Ephraim shall depart, and the adversaries of Judah shall be cut off: Ephraim shall not envy Judah, and Judah shall not vex Ephraim. But they shall fly upon the shoulders of the Philistines toward the west; they shall spoil them of the east together: they shall lay their hand upon Edom and Moab; and the children of Ammon shall obey them. And the LORD shall utterly destroy the tongue of the Egyptian sea; and with his mighty wind shall he shake his hand over the river, and shall smite it in the seven streams, and make men go over dry-shod. And there shall be an highway for the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria; like as it was to Israel in the day that he came up out of the land of Egypt." (Isaiah 11:10-16)
One who has been "lifted up," in the same way that the serpent was lifted up by Moses in the wilderness, as an ensign to be looked upon ("And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up" John 3:14), is the very symbol (the Crucifix) of our association, Christianity. "And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. This he said, signifying what death he should die. The people answered him, We have heard out of the law that Christ abides for ever: and how sayest thou, The Son of man must be lifted up? who is this Son of man? Then Jesus said unto them, Yet a little while is the light with you. Walk while ye have the light, lest darkness come upon you: for he that walks in darkness knows not whither he goes. While ye have light, believe in the light, that ye may be the children of light. These things spoke Jesus, and departed, and did hide himself from them. But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him: That the saying of Isaiah the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spoke, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed? Therefore they could not believe, because that Isaiah said again, He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them. These things said Isaiah, when he saw his glory, and spoke of him. Nevertheless among the chief rulers also many believed on him; but because of the Pharisees they did not confess him, lest they should be put out of the synagogue: For they loved the praise of men more than the praise of God." (John 12:32-43).
The Ten Tribes, are reserved as an auxiliary for the eventual Jewish freedom and salvation ("Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things. And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him. As he spoke these words, many believed on him. Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free." John 8:28-32). Christians have been taught to worship THE ALMIGHTY, and have been taught to anticipate the coming Messiah and the Earthly establishment of Heavenly Jerusalem, we have, for the most part, circumcised ourselves, we realize our common enemy. Christians anxiously await the time when THE ALMIGHTY shall, for "the second time" come to look upon His people Israel ("So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation." Hebrews 9:28).
No matter that some have rejected the "chief cornerstone," for I have been confidently assured, that it is absolutely destined, that this cornerstone will become established upon Mount Zion, as the basis for an everlasting Temple. The persistence of your brother Joseph (as Sisyphus, who cannot abandon his "eye startling task,") will reap it's predestined reward. "Jesus said unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvelous in our eyes?" (Matthew 21:42. See also Mark 12:10, Luke 20:17, and Acts 4:11 Note the emphasis of the repetition.). And again at 1st Peter 2:6-10 where Peter ties Isaiah 28:16 ("… Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation …") in with Psalm 118:22 ("The stone which the builders refused is become the head stone of the corner.") thusly; "Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Zion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded. Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner, And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed. But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should show forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvelous light: Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy."
Now, I know that we have our differences between Christian and Jew (it is not my goal to tell Jews what to do, or what to believe), and I don't pretend to known exactly what THE ALMIGHTY will do to join us together. I only hope to bring some comfort, and to ease some fears, that many in the House of Judah must be feeling in these very trying times, by showing what I, and many others, have been told as Christians. What we were taught, leads naturally to the conclusion that we are your brothers Israel, once the thought occurs to us, even before the advent of the Messiah, it will spread like wild fire. Many of us already know, and many more are even now on the cusp of the realization. Soon enlightenment will be forced, by world events and other circumstances beyond our control, upon us all. It is inevitable (and apparently immanent) that one great day "Ephraim shall not envy Judah, and Judah shall not vex Ephraim." What is mere envy and vexation in the face of destruction?
As the possibility of a Muslim Caliphate grows, I must say that our meager differences are quite insignificant in comparison to the troubles that we both currently face, together.
March 25th 2011, 02:55 AM #23
Re: Israel the olive tree!
Thanks for sharing that. Yeah I do believe the lost tribes are scattered among the nations and are being called out supernaturally and drawn by the Holy Spirit to Zion. Most do not even realize that this must take place prior to the return of Messiah. I truely believe that the rift between Jews and Christians cannot be healed until Messiah is recognized by the Jews and Torah is embraced by the Christians. This will likely only happen as the Spirit draws people to this unity.
I do think that there have been some bridges built between Christianity and judaism .But I also see both religions are very flawed and filled with man made distortions. Will the threat of destruction and mutual persecution drive the two groups closer together? Sure it will! The enemy of both faiths will give a reason to seek a common ground.But at the same time niether group can see that Messiah Jesus/Y'shua is both the giver of the Torah( I AM) as well as Messiah. That realization may not come til the actual return of Jesus (Rev.11: 15-18) at the 7th trump when he will reveal Himself and establish His Kingdom on earth.
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