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Thread: The Identity of God.

  1. #21
    tWebber robrecht's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shunyadragon View Post
    I studied to be Priest of the Roman church for about a year when I finished High School, and concept of what it is to be save was of interest to me. The following a brief reference concerning which I will cite more, including Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus

    Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dominus_Iesus

    A Catholic dogma, Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus (literally "no salvation outside the Church") has sometimes been interpreted as denying salvation to non-Catholic Christians as well as non-Christians, though Catholic teaching has long stressed the possibility of salvation for persons invincibly ignorant (through no fault of their own) of the Catholic Church's necessity and thus not culpable for lacking communion with the Church. In the 20th century this inclusive approach was expressed in the condemnation of Feeneyism and in the declaration of the Second Vatican Council, which said that "the plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator," although this is ambiguous and numerous interpretations have arisen. Vatican II further affirmed that salvation could be available to people who had not even heard of Christ (cf. Acts 17:23)— but that all who gain salvation do so only by membership in the Catholic Church, whether that membership is ordinary (explicit) or by extraordinary means (implicit).[1]

    While affirming the teaching of Lumen Gentium (the 1964 Dogmatic Constitution on the Church that came out of the Second Vatican Council) that the Roman Catholic Church "is the single Church of Christ"[2] and that "[t]his Church, constituted and organized as a society in the present world, subsists in (subsistit in) the Catholic Church,"[3] Dominus Iesus offers further comments on what it means for the true Church to "subsist in" the Roman Catholic Church. The document states that, "[w]ith the expression subsistit in, the Second Vatican Council sought to harmonize two doctrinal statements: on the one hand, that the Church of Christ, despite the divisions which exist among Christians, continues to exist fully only in the Catholic Church, and on the other hand, that 'outside of her structure, many elements can be found of sanctification and truth.'

    © Copyright Original Source



    The bolded is what I acknowledged as possible salvation outside the church as defined within the church.
    There are indeed differing interpretations of Lumen Gentium, and even at the time of it's composition and ratification, it could be understood differently by its various authors (several of whom would go on to become bishops, cardinals, and pope) and by the prelates who ratified it and themselves disagreed, but it is clear that it unambiguously affirms the possibility of salvation for those who sincerely seek God, regardless of their formal membership in the Catholic church or any church or even for those who do not believe in God. Continuing arguments about the meaning of 'subsistit in' are irrelevant to this. And we do not see any limitation of sincerity to those below the age of consent and certainly no mention of the necessity of belief in the Apostles Creed.
    βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
    ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

    אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

  2. #22
    tWebber shunyadragon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by robrecht View Post
    There are indeed differing interpretations of Lumen Gentium, and even at the time of it's composition and ratification, it could be understood differently by its various authors (several of whom would go on to become bishops, cardinals, and pope) and by the prelates who ratified it and themselves disagreed, but it is clear that it unambiguously affirms the possibility of salvation for those who sincerely seek God, regardless of their formal membership in the Catholic church or any church or even for those who do not believe in God. Continuing arguments about the meaning of 'subsistit in' are irrelevant to this. And we do not see any limitation of sincerity to those below the age of consent and certainly no mention of the necessity of belief in the Apostles Creed.
    Does not address the Doctrine and Dogma of the Roman Church as specifically cited. The only allowance for salvation outside the church is defined as: Those who through no fault of their own have no knowledge of the One True Church, and those below the age of consent or otherwise not able to comprehend God and the One True Church (i.e. the mentally ill or incapacitated).
    Yes, this includes those who sincerely seek God, but through no fault of their own do not achieve the knowledge of the One True Church,

    You will have to more specific in citing documents of the Roman Church for your response to be meaningful. Actually your response has a high fog index. Please be specific if the Grace of Salvation is extended to others beyond what I have described above.

    Actually, unlike past ages, by far most of the people of the world have rejected the Roman Church as the One True Church with full knowledge of the Roman Church. What in the view of the Doctrine and Dogma of the Roman Church would there be any chance for them for salvation?
    Last edited by shunyadragon; 03-29-2014 at 12:37 PM.
    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

    go with the flow the river knows . . .

    Frank

    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

  3. #23
    tWebber robrecht's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shunyadragon View Post
    Does not address the Doctrine and Dogma of the Roman Church as specifically cited. The only allowance for salvation outside the church is defined as: Those who through no fault of their own have no knowledge of the One True Church, and those below the age of consent or otherwise not able to comprehend God and the One True Church (i.e. the mentally ill or incapacitated).
    Yes, this includes those who sincerely seek God, but through no fault of their own do not achieve the knowledge of the One True Church,

    You will have to more specific in citing documents of the Roman Church for your response to be meaningful. Actually your response has a high fog index. Please be specific if the Grace of Salvation is extended to others beyond what I have described above.

    Actually, unlike past ages, by far most of the people of the world have rejected the Roman Church as the One True Church with full knowledge of the Roman Church. What in the view of the Doctrine and Dogma of the Roman Church would there be any chance for them for salvation?
    Can you please cite your references and provide quotes regarding those below the age of consent, those unable to comprehend God and the One True Church, ie, the mentally ill or incapacitated? I provided a link to the most authoritative source for current Catholic teaching about salvation outside the church and it does not make any reference to these categories. I cannot cite what is not there.

    As for those who have who have rejected the Roman Catholic Church, are you claiming that the Roman Catholic Church teaches that those people cannot be saved? Can you please quote your source on this?
    βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
    ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

    אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

  4. #24
    tWebber shunyadragon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by robrecht View Post
    As for those who have who have rejected the Roman Catholic Church, are you claiming that the Roman Catholic Church teaches that those people cannot be saved? Can you please quote your source on this?
    All ready cited, Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus (literally "no salvation outside the Church")

    This is covered in the in the Doctrines and Dogma as 'Salvation' for those who have no knowledge of the One True Church 'through no fault of their own.' I will cite more, but important question 'Are you knowledgeable about the specifics of the Doctrine and Dogma documents of the Roman Church, and the implications of who is given the 'Grace of Salvation?'
    Last edited by shunyadragon; 03-29-2014 at 01:22 PM.
    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

    go with the flow the river knows . . .

    Frank

    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

  5. #25
    tWebber robrecht's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shunyadragon View Post
    All ready cited, Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus (literally "no salvation outside the Church"(
    I'm sorry, but a Wikipedia article about a Latin phrase of Cyprian of Carthage, and how it has been variously understood by some in the Church is not really a source of Catholic doctrine.
    βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
    ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

    אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

  6. #26
    tWebber robrecht's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shunyadragon View Post
    ... Will cite more, but important question are you knowledgeable about the specifics of the Doctrine and Dogma documents of the Roman Church, and the implications of who is given the 'Grace of Salvation?'
    Yes, I have some basic familiarity, which is why I linked you to the most authoritative teaching of the Catholic church regarding this.
    βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
    ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

    אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

  7. #27
    tWebber shunyadragon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by robrecht View Post
    I'm sorry, but a Wikipedia article about a Latin phrase of Cyprian of Carthage, and how it has been variously understood by some in the Church is not really a source of Catholic doctrine.
    It is by far adequate for you to go on and read the document itself. As I said. I would cite more, but this is not like making instant coffee (yuckety yuck yuck!!!). Wiki is of course brief, but you should not 'curse the source' unless you go on and actually read the referred documents themselves.
    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

    go with the flow the river knows . . .

    Frank

    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

  8. #28
    tWebber robrecht's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shunyadragon View Post
    It is by far adequate for you to go on and read the document itself. As I said. I would cite more, but this is not like making instant coffee (yuckety yuck yuck!!!). Wiki is of course brief, but you should not 'curse the source' unless you go on and actually read the referred documents themselves.
    I have read the document and I linked you to it. I did not curse Wikipedia, but tried to refer you to the original source.
    βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
    ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

    אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

  9. #29
    tWebber shunyadragon's Avatar
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    I was going to be selective, but I believe the whole document is warranted:

    Source: https://www.olrl.org/doctrine/eens2.shtml



    EXTRA ECCLESIAM NULLA SALUS (No Salvation Outside the Church)

    Today's pluralistic and godless society creates an environment of indifference in matters of religion in order to achieve a false and empty unity and liberty. It is said that everyone must be allowed to believe as they see fit and do what makes them happy. The implication is that God is not very concerned about whether one believes in what is true, for all will be saved as long as they are "nice." Some come to this conclusion by asserting that there does not exist any objective truth for us to adhere to, which in turn leads to a denial of the existence of God. Others say that there exist only a few basic objective truths that we need to believe in order to be saved. Both opinions miss the plain reality of the order established by God – the Catholic Church is the unique divine institution given to us for the salvation of mankind.

    This assertion implies that all non-Catholic religions are false and that only the Catholic Church contains the entire deposit of Truth given to the Apostles by Christ. Although these statements are denied and scorned by today's world, they are fully in accord with common sense and the constant teaching of the Church. While it is true that non-Catholics can gain admittance to the Church through the baptisms of blood and desire without having been formally admitted through baptism of water, yet these are still saved in the Church and because of the Church. The New Testament makes clear the need to attach oneself to the truths taught by the Catholic Faith. Christ gave to the Apostles the entire deposit of faith ("The Holy Ghost will teach you all things" John 14:26), told them to pass it on to the world ("Going therefore, teach ye all nations" Matt. 28:19), and threatened damnation for those who did not believe them ("He who believes not will be condemned" Mark 16:16). He would not have condemned to hell the disbelievers if either it was not important to believe all that the Apostles taught or if He was not certain that the Apostles were teaching the truth ("He that heareth you heareth Me" Luke 10:16). The Apostles themselves knew that all who believed in any way different from their infallible teaching would perish – "But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach a gospel to you besides that which we have preached to you, let him be anathema" (Gal. 1:8).

    Christ did not intend for only men who lived in the Apostles' lifetime to know and live the Truth. He ensured that the deposit of faith would be passed on throughout the generations so that all might have an opportunity to believe all that He entrusted to the Apostles – "I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world" (Matt. 28:20). His truth, the actual truth, never changes, and it is as important to hold it today as it was in the first century. It is only by holding to what is true that we can love and serve God and be saved, for false principles lead to evil actions. Since there is only one truth and it is unchanging and indispensable, it is impossible for more than one of the systems of belief or religions that exist in the world to lead to salvation. Any other position negates the words of Our Lord.

    It is certainly through the Catholic Church that Our Lord has guided men to keep the deposit entrusted to the Apostles throughout the centuries. It is the Catholic Church that defeated the many heresies against the nature and person of Christ, long before Protestant denominations appeared, such as Arianism, Monophysitism, Monothelitism, Nestorianism, Pelagianism, Apollonarism, etc.. – all of these had to be opposed vigorously with the true doctrine before they were extirpated, and some still exist today. It is the Catholic Church that holds to the same doctrines that the Fathers, who had the words of the Apostles "resounding in their ears", taught and defended and which all but the schismatics reject today – auricular confession, veneration of images, the Real Presence in the Eucharist, the existence of seven sacraments, the Church as the final arbiter of all doctrinal disputes, and many more. It is only the Catholic Church that has not changed and it is only She that has existed since the time of Christ.

    The Church has always been aware that she has been given by Christ the entire deposit of revelation to guard until the last day and thus asserts the infallibility of her Supreme Pastor, appointed by Christ to be His Vicar on earth, and also that salvation can be found only within her maternal bosom. Whenever the Pope, 1.) using his full apostolic authority, 2.) defines, 3.) as supreme teacher of all Christians, 4.) a matter of faith or morals 5.) that must be held by the universal Church, he is infallible and is expressing a doctrine that is part of the deposit of the faith entrusted to the Apostles and which has been believed always and everywhere by Catholics.

    The Catholic Church has solemnly defined three times by infallible declarations that outside the Catholic Church there is no salvation. The most explicit and forceful of the three came from Pope Eugene IV, in the Bull Cantate Domino, 1441, who proclaimed ex cathedra: "The Most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, also Jews, heretics, and schismatics can ever be partakers of eternal life, but that they are to go into the eternal fire 'which was prepared for the devil and his angels' (Mt. 25:41) unless before death they are joined with Her... No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ can be saved unless they abide within the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church."

    The other two infallible declarations are as follows: There is one universal Church of the faithful, outside of which no one at all can be saved. Pope Innocent III, ex cathedra, (Fourth Lateran Council, 1215).

    We declare, say , define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff. Pope Boniface VIII, (Unam Sanctam, 1302).

    This means, and has always meant, that salvation and unity exist only within the Catholic Church, and that members of heretical groups cannot be considered as "part" of the Church of Christ. This doctrine has been the consistent teaching of the Popes throughout the centuries.

    Further, it is dogmatically set forth that no authority in the Church, no matter how highly placed, may lawfully attempt to change the clear meaning of this (or any) infallible dogma. Vatican I taught: "The meaning of Sacred Dogmas, which must always be preserved, is that which our Holy Mother the Church has determined. Never is it permissible to depart from this in the name of a deeper understanding." This same Vatican I defined solemnly that not even a Pope may teach a new doctrine.

    © Copyright Original Source



    This reference will be split, because of limits to posting length. Please note, nothing Pope Francis can say can alter or change this infallible Doctrine.

    This Doctrine does not address the issue of those 'who no fault of their own' have no knowledge of the 'One True Church.'

    This I will address next.
    Last edited by shunyadragon; 03-29-2014 at 01:47 PM.
    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

    go with the flow the river knows . . .

    Frank

    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

  10. #30
    tWebber shunyadragon's Avatar
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    continued from previous post.

    Source: https://www.olrl.org/doctrine/eens2.shtml



    Naturally, the truth that there is no salvation outside of the Catholic Church has been supported by all the saints from every age. Following are several examples:

    St. Irenaeus (130-202), Bishop and Martyr: "The Church is the entrance to life; all others are thieves and robbers. On this account we are bound to avoid them . . . . We hear it declared of the unbelieving and the blinded of this world that they shall not inherit the world of life which is to come . . . . Resist them in defense of the only true and life giving faith, which the Church has received from the Apostles and imparted to her sons."

    St. Augustine (354-430), Bishop and Doctor of the Church: "No man can find salvation except in the Catholic Church. Outside the Catholic Church one can have everything except salvation. One can have honor, one can have sacraments, one can sing alleluia, one can answer amen, one can have faith in the Name of the Father and the Son and of the Holy Ghost, and preach it too, but never can one find salvation except in the Catholic Church."

    St. Fulgentius (468-533), Bishop: "Most firmly hold and never doubt that not only pagans, but also Jews, all heretics, and all schismatics who finish this life outside of the Catholic Church, will go into eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels."

    Pope St. Gregory the Great (590-604): "The holy universal Church teaches that it is not possible to worship God truly except in Her and asserts that all who are outside of Her will not be saved."

    St. Francis of Assisi (1182-1226): "All who have not believed that Jesus Christ was really the Son of God are doomed. Also, all who see the Sacrament of the Body of Christ and do not believe it is really the most holy Body and Blood of the Lord . . . these also are doomed!"

    St. Thomas Aquinas (1226-1274), the Angelic Doctor: There is no entering into salvation outside the Catholic Church, just as in the time of the Flood there was not salvation outside the Ark, which denotes the Church."

    St. Louis Marie de Montfort (1673-1716): "There is no salvation outside the Catholic Church. Anyone who resists this truth perishes."

    St. Robert Bellarmine (1542-1621), Bishop and Doctor of the Church: "Outside the Church there is no salvation...therefore in the symbol (Apostles Creed) we join together the Church with the remission of sins: 'I believe in the Holy Catholic Church, the communion of saints, the forgiveness of sins"...For this reason the Church is compared to the Ark of Noah, because just as during the deluge, everyone perished who was not in the ark, so now those perish who are not in the Church."

    St. Alphonsus Maria de Liguori (1696-1787), Bishop and Doctor of the Church: "All the misfortunes of unbelievers spring from too great an attachment to the things of life. This sickness of heart weakens and darkens the understanding, and leads to eternal ruin. If they would try to heal their hearts by purging them of their vices, they would soon receive light, which would show them the necessity of joining the Catholic Church, where alone is salvation. We should constantly thank the Lord for having granted us the gift of the true Faith, by associating us with the children of the Holy Catholic Church ... How many are the infidels, heretics, and schismatics who do not enjoy the happiness of the true Faith! Earth is full of them and they are all lost!"

    Pope Pius XII (1939-1958): Some say they are not bound by the doctrine which teaches that the Mystical Body of Christ and the Roman Catholic Church are one and the same thing. Some reduce to a meaningless formula the necessity of belonging to the true Church in order to gain eternal salvation. Others finally belittle the reasonable character of the credibility of Christian Faith. These and like ERRORS, it is clear, have crept in among certain of our sons who are deceived by imprudent zeal for souls or by false science."

    The greatest act of charity that one can perform is to bring others to the truth. The Catholic Faith is a gift from God, one that can be shared, one that gives life and salvation. Mother Church, being solicitous for the welfare of all mankind, has always sought to bring all into the One Fold (John 10:16), and to unite all in the profession of the one Faith given to us by Christ through the Apostles. If She were to hide the truth, or be content to leave others in their error, She would be cruel and indifferent.

    This is a great lesson for Catholics, for many do not esteem the priceless value of their Faith as they should. It must be given to others at every opportunity; it must be passed on to those who languish without the true sacraments, who struggle to interpret the Bible without an infallible teaching authority, or who lead often immoral lives without the guidance of the "pillar and ground of truth" (I Tim. 5"15).

    Let all Catholics then, be both like the martyrs of old, who died rather than relinquish one doctrine of their Catholic Faith, and like the great missionaries, who endured extreme privations and sufferings in order to bring salvation to even one soul. It is only a firm belief in the importance of the Catholic Faith for salvation that motivated these heroic actions and it is only such a faith that can "overcome the world" today (I John 5:4).

    © Copyright Original Source

    Last edited by shunyadragon; 03-29-2014 at 01:46 PM.
    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

    go with the flow the river knows . . .

    Frank

    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

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