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Cogito ergo sum

Here in the Philosophy forum we will talk about all the "why" questions. We'll have conversations about the way in which philosophy and theology and religion interact with each other. Metaphysics, ontology, origins, truth? They're all fair game so jump right in and have some fun! But remember...play nice!

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The Identity of God.

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  • #31
    Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
    I was going to be selective, but I believe the whole document is warranted:

    Source: https://www.olrl.org/doctrine/eens2.shtml



    EXTRA ECCLESIAM NULLA SALUS (No Salvation Outside the Church)

    ... This assertion implies that all non-Catholic religions are false ...

    This means, and has always meant, that salvation and unity exist only within the Catholic Church, and that members of heretical groups cannot be considered as "part" of the Church of Christ. This doctrine has been the consistent teaching of the Popes throughout the centuries.

    Further, it is dogmatically set forth that no authority in the Church, no matter how highly placed, may lawfully attempt to change the clear meaning of this (or any) infallible dogma. Vatican I taught: "The meaning of Sacred Dogmas, which must always be preserved, is that which our Holy Mother the Church has determined. Never is it permissible to depart from this in the name of a deeper understanding." This same Vatican I defined solemnly that not even a Pope may teach a new doctrine.

    © Copyright Original Source



    This reference will be split, because of limits to posting length. Please note, nothing Pope Francis can say can alter or change this infallible Doctrine.

    This Doctrine does not address the issue of those 'who no fault of their own' have no knowledge of the 'One True Church.'

    This I will address next.
    Shuny, do you happen to know who wrote this document?
    βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
    ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

    אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by Christianbookworm View Post
      Sounds good. But can I please play Devil's Advocate and ask how your proof proves the Christian God and not the one of the deists?
      (I am a Christian, just want to encourage discussion with some devil advocating. Even though I'm not so good at philosophy. I just had one class in college.)
      The ancient Hebrews worshiped their God by the Name which means "self Existent" (Strong's Hebrew dictionary number 3068) And has been variously translated, "the LORD," "The Eternal," "Jehovah," and "Yahweh" or "Yahvah." The Jewish faith is the basis of the Christian faith (John 4:22). Self existent existence is in need of no kind of God, so unless this is the very identity of God, there is none.
      . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

      . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

      Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

      Comment


      • #33
        Please note highlighted:

        Source: http://www.catholic.com/tracts/salvation-outside-the-church

        The following quotations from the Church Fathers give the straight story. They show that the early Church held the same position on this as the contemporary Church does—that is, while it is normatively necessary to be a Catholic to be saved (see CCC 846; Vatican II, Lumen Gentium 14), there are exceptions, and it is possible in some circumstances for people to be saved who have not been fully initiated into the Catholic Church (CCC 847).

        Notice that the same Fathers who declare the normative necessity of being Catholic also declare the possibility of salvation for some who are not Catholics.

        These can be saved by what later came to be known as "baptism of blood" or " baptism of desire" (for more on this subject, see the Fathers Know Best tract, The Necessity of Baptism).

        The Fathers likewise affirm the possibility of salvation for those who lived before Christ and who were not part of Israel, the Old Testament People of God.

        However, for those who knowingly and deliberately (that is, not out of innocent ignorance) commit the sins of heresy (rejecting divinely revealed doctrine) or schism (separating from the Catholic Church and/or joining a schismatic church), no salvation would be possible until they repented and returned to live in Catholic unity.

        © Copyright Original Source

        Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
        Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
        But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

        go with the flow the river knows . . .

        Frank

        I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
          Please note highlighted:

          Source: http://www.catholic.com/tracts/salvation-outside-the-church

          The following quotations from the Church Fathers give the straight story. They show that the early Church held the same position on this as the contemporary Church does—that is, while it is normatively necessary to be a Catholic to be saved (see CCC 846; Vatican II, Lumen Gentium 14), there are exceptions, and it is possible in some circumstances for people to be saved who have not been fully initiated into the Catholic Church (CCC 847).

          Notice that the same Fathers who declare the normative necessity of being Catholic also declare the possibility of salvation for some who are not Catholics.

          These can be saved by what later came to be known as "baptism of blood" or " baptism of desire" (for more on this subject, see the Fathers Know Best tract, The Necessity of Baptism).

          The Fathers likewise affirm the possibility of salvation for those who lived before Christ and who were not part of Israel, the Old Testament People of God.

          However, for those who knowingly and deliberately (that is, not out of innocent ignorance) commit the sins of heresy (rejecting divinely revealed doctrine) or schism (separating from the Catholic Church and/or joining a schismatic church), no salvation would be possible until they repented and returned to live in Catholic unity.

          © Copyright Original Source

          Shuny, why don't you quote the current authoritative teaching of the Catholic church? Despite this tract being approved by Bernadeane Carr, the Catholic church very clearly does not teach that Protestants need to return to the Catholic church in order to be saved. Why not take a look at the dogmatic documents of Vatican II or the later catechism?
          βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
          ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

          אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

          Comment


          • #35
            Inculpable ignorance - This is brief descriptive citation with references. More to follow:

            Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extra_Ecclesiam_nulla_salus

            In its statements of this doctrine, the Church expressly teaches that "it is necessary to hold for certain that they who labor in ignorance of the true religion, if this ignorance is invincible, will not be held guilty of this in the eyes of God";[6] that "outside of the Church, nobody can hope for life or salvation unless he is excused through ignorance beyond his control";[6] and that "they who labor in invincible ignorance of our most holy religion and who, zealously keeping the natural law and its precepts engraved in the hearts of all by God, and being ready to obey God, live an honest and upright life, can, by the operating power of divine light and grace, attain eternal life."[8]

            Inculpable ignorance is not a means of salvation.[18] But if by no fault of the individual ignorance cannot be overcome (if, that is, it is inculpable and invincible), it does not prevent the grace that comes from Christ, a grace that has a relationship with the Church, saving that person.

            © Copyright Original Source

            Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
            Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
            But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

            go with the flow the river knows . . .

            Frank

            I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
              Inculpable ignorance - This is brief descriptive citation with references. More to follow:

              Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extra_Ecclesiam_nulla_salus

              In its statements of this doctrine, the Church expressly teaches that "it is necessary to hold for certain that they who labor in ignorance of the true religion, if this ignorance is invincible, will not be held guilty of this in the eyes of God";[6] that "outside of the Church, nobody can hope for life or salvation unless he is excused through ignorance beyond his control";[6] and that "they who labor in invincible ignorance of our most holy religion and who, zealously keeping the natural law and its precepts engraved in the hearts of all by God, and being ready to obey God, live an honest and upright life, can, by the operating power of divine light and grace, attain eternal life."[8]

              Inculpable ignorance is not a means of salvation.[18] But if by no fault of the individual ignorance cannot be overcome (if, that is, it is inculpable and invincible), it does not prevent the grace that comes from Christ, a grace that has a relationship with the Church, saving that person.

              © Copyright Original Source

              Check the references to church documents: 1854 and 1863. Does not shed much light more recent Catholic teaching.
              βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
              ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

              אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

              Comment


              • #37
                Concerning Vatican II Salvation outside the church.

                Source: Second Vatican Council, Constitution Lumen gentium, 16

                "Those also can attain to salvation who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, yet sincerely seek God and moved by grace strive by their deeds to do His will as it is known to them through the dictates of conscience. Nor does Divine Providence deny the helps necessary for salvation to those who, without blame on their part, have not yet arrived at an explicit knowledge of God and with His grace strive to live a good life."

                © Copyright Original Source



                Many liberal theologians with from inside the Roman Church and outside often cite Vatican II as somehow radially changing church doctrine, particularly EXTRA ECCLESIAM NULLA SALUS, but this is not true. Like Pope Francis, the Vatican II made many carefully coached statements of tolerance, but the bottom line is also given in the Vatican II if you read the whole document.

                Eventually Pope Francis, like all popes before him have to give papal address confirming EXTRA ECCLESIAM NULLA SALUS and defining the doctrinal view of ecumenism of the Roman Church.
                Last edited by shunyadragon; 03-29-2014, 05:23 PM.
                Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                go with the flow the river knows . . .

                Frank

                I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by robrecht View Post
                  Shuny, why don't you quote the current authoritative teaching of the Catholic church? Despite this tract being approved by Bernadeane Carr, the Catholic church very clearly does not teach that Protestants need to return to the Catholic church in order to be saved. Why not take a look at the dogmatic documents of Vatican II or the later catechism?
                  I will cite them also, but nonetheless the EXTRA ECCLESIAM NULLA SALUS is an infallible doctrine of the Roman Church that cannot be changed, and actually if you carefully read the whole Vatican II, it does confirm EXTRA ECCLESIAM NULLA SALUS, and give the details of salvation outside the church as I cited in a previous post
                  Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                  Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                  But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                  go with the flow the river knows . . .

                  Frank

                  I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                    Concerning Vatican II Salvation outside the church.

                    Source: Second Vatican Council, Constitution Lumen gentium, 16

                    "Those also can attain to salvation who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, yet sincerely seek God and moved by grace strive by their deeds to do His will as it is known to them through the dictates of conscience. Nor does Divine Providence deny the helps necessary for salvation to those who, without blame on their part, have not yet arrived at an explicit knowledge of God and with His grace strive to live a good life."

                    © Copyright Original Source



                    Many liberal theologians with from inside the Roman Church and outside often cite Vatican II as somehow radially changing church doctrine, particularly EXTRA ECCLESIAM NULLA SALUS, but this is not true. Like Pope Francis, the Vatican II mad many carefully coached statements of tolerance, but the bottom line is also given in the Vatican II if you read the whole document.
                    Where does it say that Protestants must rejoin the Catholic Church in order to be saved? Where does it speak about those below the age of consent, those unable to comprehend God and the One True Church, ie, the mentally ill or incapacitated?
                    βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
                    ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

                    אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                      I will cite them also, but nonetheless the EXTRA ECCLESIAM NULLA SALUS is an infallible doctrine of the Roman Church that cannot be changed, and actually if you carefully read the whole Vatican II, it does confirm EXTRA ECCLESIAM NULLA SALUS, and give the details of salvation outside the church as I cited in a previous post
                      Please quote where it says that Protestants must rejoin the Catholic Church in order to be saved? Please quote where it speaks about those below the age of consent, those unable to comprehend God and the One True Church, ie, the mentally ill or incapacitated?
                      βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
                      ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

                      אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                        Eventually Pope Francis, like all popes before him have to give papal address confirming EXTRA ECCLESIAM NULLA SALUS and defining the doctrinal view of ecumenism of the Roman Church.
                        Now we are moving from your opinion and interpretation to prophecy. I will look forward to Pope Francis confirming your interpretation!
                        βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
                        ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

                        אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Source: Vatican II



                          Ecumenism and the Roman Church

                          The Introduction states the desire for ecumenism, but . . .

                          The restoration of unity among all Christians is one of the principal concerns of the Second Vatican Council. Christ the Lord founded one Church and one Church only. However, many Christian communions present themselves to men as the true inheritors of Jesus Christ; all indeed profess to be followers of the Lord but differ in mind and go their different ways, as if Christ Himself were divided.(1) Such division openly contradicts the will of Christ, scandalizes the world, and damages the holy cause of preaching the Gospel to every creature.

                          From CHAPTER I - CATHOLIC PRINCIPLES ON ECUMENISM

                          The Church, then, is God's only flock; it is like a standard lifted high for the nations to see it:(16) for it serves all mankind through the Gospel of peace(17) as it makes its pilgrim way in hope toward the goal of the fatherland above.(18)

                          In summary

                          Nevertheless, our separated brethren, whether considered as individuals or as Communities and Churches, are not blessed with that unity which Jesus Christ wished to bestow on all those who through Him were born again into one body, and with Him quickened to newness of life-that unity which the Holy Scriptures and the ancient Tradition of the Church proclaim. For it is only through Christ's Catholic Church, which is "the all-embracing means of salvation," that they can benefit fully from the means of salvation. We believe that Our Lord entrusted all the blessings of the New Covenant to the apostolic college alone, of which Peter is the head, in order to establish the one Body of Christ on earth to which all should be fully incorporated who belong in any way to the people of God. This people of God, though still in its members liable to sin, is ever growing in Christ during its pilgrimage on earth, and is guided by God's gentle wisdom, according to His hidden designs, until it shall happily arrive at the fullness of eternal glory in the heavenly Jerusalem.

                          . . . all Christians will at last, in a common celebration of the Eucharist, be gathered into the one and only Church in that unity which Christ bestowed on His Church from the beginning. We believe that this unity subsists in the Catholic Church as something she can never lose, and we hope that it will continue to increase until the end of time.

                          © Copyright Original Source

                          Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                          Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                          But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                          go with the flow the river knows . . .

                          Frank

                          I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by robrecht View Post
                            Now we are moving from your opinion and interpretation to prophecy. I will look forward to Pope Francis confirming your interpretation!
                            This has nothing to do with prophecy. It has to do with the Doctrine and Dogma of the Roman Church, which Pope Francis cannot change.
                            Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                            Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                            But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                            go with the flow the river knows . . .

                            Frank

                            I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                              This has nothing to do with prophecy. It has to do with the Doctrine and Dogma of the Roman Church, which Pope Francis cannot change.
                              In your opinion.
                              βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
                              ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

                              אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by robrecht View Post
                                Shuny, do you happen to know who wrote this document?
                                Basically the Roman Church wrote the document. do you doubt it's legitimacy as it states as an infallible document of the Roman Church? I may follow up and research this, but what would be the purpose?
                                Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                                Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                                But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                                go with the flow the river knows . . .

                                Frank

                                I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                                Comment

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