Revelation 18: 4,5 Come out of her my people,...

[Truth Files]

Response to the OP:

Briefly ....

MBG is the Lord's view entire unbelieving world historically and at the coming time of the end of this present age

The first beast of Revelation is a fallen angelic like Satan who will be allowed to manifest in a human king [Daniel's visions of the little horn in chapters 7; 8; 9; 11; 12]

This beast rules over 7 human kingdoms for Satan .... all Middle Eastern based

5 have fallen in the ancient past before the first century [these are a matter of recorded history] .... 2 successive are still pending for the time of the end of this age

This beast and 10 other human kings of the Middle East will attack and destroy the "great city" of western civilization in one day early in the coming tribulation period [the Lord's hour [time] of trial and judgment which will last for 2550 days]

The calling in Revelation of living believers at the time will take place just before the "great city" falls ..... these of today's church will be taken by the Lord and immortalized so that they are not subjected to the destruction which will have worldwide effects of significant proportion

Suggested scriptures:

[1Corinthians 15:52-53; 1Thessalonians 4:13-18; 5:1-9; Matthew 25:1-13; Revelation 3:10; 3:15-19; 6:12-17; 8:2-12; 9:1; 9:11; 11:7; 12:12; 13:1-5; 14:8; 17: 8-14; 17:16-18; 18:1-21]

[4 Zion]

Anybody in death or hell are there as a punishment, that is over when they are released rather than it being their transition to the lake. If that was their intended destination they would have gone there when Satan and the fallen angels did. The verse below speaks of forgiveness, the servants in the verses prior do nor need to have any sins forgotten, the ones killed by the sword are paid in full when the new earth is opened up. The city is complete when anybody first enters it, the new earth should look just like the earth does in the Ge.2 version of creation. The 'servants' live in (new) Jerusalem and the builders live outside the city. Beasts of the field cannot enter Jerusalem and they do not know about good and evil. Men have geen judged as being 'good' so they do come to the city often.

Hi MH,
Ok, you kind of lost me here. "That is over when they are released"..Yes I think are agreeing death and hades are a seperate place for the unrightious. Um are you saying here...that this is like "purgatory"?I am just trying to make sure im understanding the intent here.

Blessings!

[4 Zion]

This beast rules over 7 human kingdoms for Satan .... all Middle Eastern based

Hi TF,Could you share with me where you found that hese are middle eastern kingdoms?

The calling in Revelation of living believers at the time will take place just before the "great city" falls ..... these of today's church will be taken by the Lord and immortalized so that they are not subjected to the destruction which will have worldwide effects of significant proportion

Ok, by the great city you are talking about.. Rome or ? And the immortalized humans you are interpreting as dwelling on the earth during the trib. period?( is that it?) Or they are the 144000? Just trying to understand your perspective better here. Thanks!

Blessings!

[Truth Files]

4Zion,

Briefly ....

The 7 kingdoms are all Middle Eastern according to the visions of prophecy

The 5 fallen were:

The land of magog, and the subsequent kingdoms of Assyria, neo-Babylon, Media/Persia, and Syrio/Babylonia

Ezekiel 38 , Daniel's visions [Daniel 2, 7], and Revelation 17 present all 7 of them as "heads" of the beast .... 2 are still to come during the end of this present age and both will be located in the Middle East just as the 5 of the ancient past

The 5 fallen human kingdoms of Satan's beast are a matter of recorded history and we can know who they were

All of these were of particular interest to Satan whom the Bible calls the "god" of this world and they all fell just before the first century

The visions break at this juncture and then continues regarding the coming time of the end

The ancient Roman Empire and subsequent rulers [there have been several] of the Middle East are not part of the visions

So the "great city" described in Revelation was not and is not Rome .... this great city's description more resembles the USA and I believe that it is

The beast's next 2 kingdoms will both be located in the same Middle Eastern region [things are setting up at this time for them to emerge]

Those dwelling in heaven during the coming judgment of the earth are the pre-tribulation church of many nations

The 144,000 mortals are of the children of Israel who will turn and believe in their Messiah and King, Jesus Christ, [these will be on the earth and not in heaven during the period] just at the beginning of the coming judgment period against the unbelieving nations of the earth .... the same as the time of Jacob's trouble .... the coming 70th week decreed for Israel

These will be the first portion of a believing remnant of Israel, they will be sealed for protection from the wiles of the tribulation period, and they will spread the gospel of the Lord's soon coming millennial kingdom on the earth at the end of the judgment

There is much more to tell about these things with related scripture .... if you would like to discuss I will respond

[4 Zion]

So the "great city" described in Revelation was not and is not Rome .... this great city's description more resembles the USA and I believe that it is

I have heard this perspective regarding the USA before.I have no direct conflict with that possibility. I had always interpreted it as the Vatican city. I do think that perhaps some of these issues were intentionally concealed by God from us. But I am interested in exploring the possibilities and think we are to search out the truth.

I do believe that the 144,000 are of the tribes of Israel. I am not of the same perspective on the timing of the rapture or translation of the saints though . I interpret this as taking place at the 7th blast of the shofar( last trump) as Paul wrote in 1 Cor. 15:52,1 Thess 4:16 and John described in Rev.11;15 .

Anyway it is always interesting to see how others have interpreted the prophecies and I enjoy seeing hearing your perspectives.

I hadn't read any posts from you till a couple days ago, so if you are new on here TF ..welcome aboard!
Blessings!

[MegaHertz]

Jerusalem when it is under the control of Satan is the Babylon that is destroyed. Satan is not going to put a throne anyplace but Jerusalem if it is an attempt to claim to be God. Even the Bible doesn't use Jerusalem for the name after the two witnesses are dead. Re.16 would seem to include America and all other Nations.

Re.11:8
And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city,
which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt,
where also our Lord was crucified.

2Th.2:4
Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God,
or that is worshipped;
so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God,
shewing himself that he is God.

Re.16:19
And the great city was divided into three parts,
and the cities of the nations fell:
and great Babylon came in remembrance before God,
to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.

Zec.14:3
Then shall the LORD go forth,
and fight against those nations,
as when he fought in the day of battle.
Zec.14:4
And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives,
which is before Jerusalem on the east,
and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west,
and there shall be a very great valley;
and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north,
and half of it toward the south.

Re.18:7
How much she hath glorified herself,
and lived deliciously,
so much torment and sorrow give her:
for she saith in her heart,
I sit a queen,
and am no widow,
and shall see no sorrow.

La.1:1
How doth the city sit solitary,
that was full of people!
how is she become as a widow!
she that was great among the nations,
and princess among the provinces,
how is she become tributary!
La.1:2
She weepeth sore in the night,
and her tears are on her cheeks:
among all her lovers she hath none to comfort her:
all her friends have dealt treacherously with her,
they are become her enemies.

[Blue Canary]

I'm only recently been studying this as the resurrection of Islam as a world power that will dominate Bible lands becomes clearer.

I take Babylon to be the "West". That she is a harlot means she is the apostate church, which is where the West is headed for completion (America, the last hold-out of the influential West is almost completely fallen away as a nation), then the "man of lawlessness" can come. The Beast the "West" rides are kingdoms that have all had dominion over Israel at some time, and the soon-to-be-resurrected Islamic (Ottoman) Empire is on it's way to be the revived eighth head and out of it the Anti-Christ (the leader that will unite Islam read: Mahdi). It seems that the West has become so rich from the oil the Beast controls and if the Islamic Empire decided to cut off the supply, the West would be devastated immediately. The whole world would mourn the devastation of the commerce the West controls.

"Coming out" from the West would be to separate from the worldliness and sinful mindset of the apostasy that pervades the immoral Western culture now.

Just some thoughts, I am new to this.

[St Croix]

I'm only recently been studying this as the resurrection of Islam as a world power that will dominate Bible lands becomes clearer.

I take Babylon to be the "West". That she is a harlot means she is the apostate church, which is where the West is headed for completion (America, the last hold-out of the influential West is almost completely fallen away as a nation), then the "man of lawlessness" can come. The Beast the "West" rides are kingdoms that have all had dominion over Israel at some time, and the soon-to-be-resurrected Islamic (Ottoman) Empire is on it's way to be the revived eighth head and out of it the Anti-Christ (the leader that will unite Islam read: Mahdi). It seems that the West has become so rich from the oil the Beast controls and if the Islamic Empire decided to cut off the supply, the West would be devastated immediately. The whole world would mourn the devastation of the commerce the West controls.

"Coming out" from the West would be to separate from the worldliness and sinful mindset of the apostasy that pervades the immoral Western culture now.

Just some thoughts, I am new to this.

Nothing from Islam can fulfill the verse below for Islam denies the Son of God concept. It would seem to be restricted to the papacy alone: vicarius filii dei, for only an emanation from God could lay claim to the title "vicar of the Son of God."

2Th 2:4
He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God.

[Blue Canary]

Nothing from Islam can fulfill the verse below for Islam denies the Son of God concept. It would seem to be restricted to the papacy alone: vicarius filii dei, for only an emanation from God could lay claim to the title "vicar of the Son of God."

2Th 2:4
He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God.

It is also against Catholicism to proclaim the Pope to be God. It is no more likely to be Catholic than Islamic based on this scripture.

Even so, it looks like the proclamation in verse four is in setting himself up in God's temple. The man of lawlessness' act alone can accomplish this, it is in what the act "means" that proclaims it, even though he may not officially "say" it.

[seanD]

The harlot is a geographical location as described in Rev 18. It has a system of commerce and exports of merchandise. It has a a culture (music), and a business sector (artisans). The merchants stand far off and lament at its destruction. It is destroyed in one day. You can't destroy a religion or ideology in one day. It is a specific place.

[St Croix]

It is also against Catholicism to proclaim the Pope to be God. It is no more likely to be Catholic than Islamic based on this scripture.

But it was the papacy who reserved to itself the keys to the kingdom, condemning heretics at will, affording itself the license of judgement owned only by God. This could only involve the assumption of God's power. Also as I have said, the very title "vicar of the Son of God" is a transparent assumption of God's name.

Even so, it looks like the proclamation in verse four is in setting himself up in God's temple. The man of lawlessness' act alone can accomplish this, it is in what the act "means" that proclaims it, even though he may not officially "say" it.

God's temple is indeed what Roman Catholic churches proclaim themselves to be, for their buildings and altars are consecrated and holy, whereas the concept finds no parallel in the NT.

[St Croix]

The harlot is a geographical location as described in Rev 18. It has a system of commerce and exports of merchandise. It has a a culture (music), and a business sector (artisans). The merchants stand far off and lament at its destruction. It is destroyed in one day. You can't destroy a religion or ideology in one day. It is a specific place.

The world was created in six days. A day is symbolic for a short period of time, I think. Literalism in Revelation is absurd except where a clear exposition is offerred, such as the seven hills of Rome.

[seanD]

The world was created in six days. A day is symbolic for a short period of time, I think. Literalism in Revelation is absurd except where a clear exposition is offerred, such as the seven hills of Rome.

I believe the creation happened just the way it's described in Genesis 1:2-31, but that's a different issue because that's an historical narrative of the Torah. Rev is not an historical narrative, but a vision. But that's a different issue, not appropriate here.

There is indeed much symbolism mixed with literalism in Rev, but there are visions that are obviously literal, and Rev 18 is one of them. I would assume that even preterists would agree that the Christians of Rev 7 are actual Christians and not symbolic of something else, or the judgment of Rev 20 is an actual judgment and not symbolism of something else. The debate is where do we draw the line. To assume all of Rev 18 is allegory instead of describing an actual location is a stretch. Yet even if we take that stretch, there is no way we can ever know what it actually means, therefore it is meaningless to us because we can never know which interpretation is correct.

[Blue Canary]

But it was the papacy who reserved to itself the keys to the kingdom, condemning heretics at will, affording itself the license of judgement owned only by God. This could only involve the assumption of God's power. Also as I have said, the very title "vicar of the Son of God" is a transparent assumption of God's name.

And how is this exclusive to Catholicism? Surely you can see Islam has done the same, surely you see that "prophet of Allah" carries the same theme?

God's temple is indeed what Roman Catholic churches proclaim themselves to be, for their buildings and altars are consecrated and holy, whereas the concept finds no parallel in the NT.

But we need to interpret with the understanding of the audience. The temple was the one in Jerusalem, that is the most obvious, and the one that the tension of the world centers.

[maudman]

I think that is a good possibility. It appears to me the beast the Harlot rides is the governmental power shes in bed with. The fact that she is riding the beast would indicate some control or is simply using it to achieve her own ends.It also seems evident that the beast is the one that destroys her eventually17:16, And this is a judgement by God v 17

It's not even remotely possible because that isn't what the scriptures Means... Mystery babylon is a Mystery... That is nothing but old reformation rehtoric what your saying... If people would quit reading the bible to put the blame on someone else you might see what is said... You people interpret things with Presupposition... everybody presuppose their their quiltless...

She is in fact the MOTHER of Hartlots... She was responsible for all of those who were and are God people that commit fornication to commit audultry... All throughout the Bible... From Israel's begining before there was a Roman Empire or even a Catholic Church.... She is drunk with the Blood of the Saints! Not only had she killed and caused the death of so many... The beast that carries her is the world...She is On the Seven Contenants.. Her riches comes from exploiting the religious of all pagan faiths (edited to add even Christians)...

It has nothing to do with any CHristian institution but the Man of Commerces an worldly Power... Which has caused the death of many Christians... Causing christian nations to kill one another throught the wars of her commerces and trafficking... But she also was their protector... She is the unbeliever or the worshipor of worldly things for her own ends... She is in fact what many are patriotic too... Many fornicators empower her for their own protection... She is in fact the civilized man whos power sped over the earth making people rich... She sits in the seat of Power of the world Globally... She thinks she shall see no sorrow because she will protect and honor all mens gods... How can she Loose.... She begins with Nimrod who was a mighty hunter of Men... A tyrrant who hunts down men who interfer with its pupose... She even at times delivers Gods wrath for justice...

4zion you can listen to the idots all you want but I wouldn't believe a thing they say... They are Liars, False Prophets and False teachers..