The "place" of God ?

[JimL]

Does God exist every "place", or is God himself every "place" that exists, for if God exists every "place" then something called "place" must necessarily have been existent prior to God in order that he exist within it, but if God himself is every "place" then everything must necessarily exist in God. But if everything that is exists in God, then everything that is is one with God. Notice that Universe could be inserted in the place of God above and you have the same result.

[seer]

Does God exist every "place", or is God himself every "place" that exists, for if God exists every "place" then something called "place" must necessarily have been existent prior to God in order that he exist within it, but if God himself is every "place" then everything must necessarily exist in God. But if everything that is exists in God, then everything that is is one with God. Notice that Universe could be inserted in the place of God above and you have the same result.

What? Well first Jim I don't believe that God is present everywhere, in that His being (His essence so to speak) is everywhere. I don't believe that God is in the tree or the tree is in God. I do believe that God can see everything and can extend His power anywhere He so chooses.

[Sparko]

There is a distinction between the creator and the created. God being everywhere does not equate with everything being God.

Pantheism is the belief that God is the universe. Panentheism believes that while God pervades the universe, he is separate from the universe, extends beyond it, and has a separate identity from it. Christianity is a form of Panentheism, not Pantheism.

[Catholicity]

Does God exist every "place", or is God himself every "place" that exists, for if God exists every "place" then something called "place" must necessarily have been existent prior to God in order that he exist within it, but if God himself is every "place" then everything must necessarily exist in God. But if everything that is exists in God, then everything that is is one with God. Notice that Universe could be inserted in the place of God above and you have the same result.

JimL, try seperating your statements a bit here. Lets Break it down....

Does God exist every place? Well, Scripture more precisely, Psalm 139: 7-10 makes it clear God's presence is everywhere.
Where shall I go from your Spirit?
Or where shall I flee from your presence?
8 If I ascend to heaven, you are there!
If I make my bed in Sheol, you are there!
9 If I take the wings of the morning
and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea,
10 even there your hand shall lead me,
and your right hand shall hold me.

or is God himself every "place" that exists,

No This is Pantheism. Pantheism by definition states God is in everything and everything is God, people, places and things. This Contradicts Scripture when Luke 19:39-40
39 Some of the Pharisees in the crowd said to Jesus, “Teacher, rebuke your disciples!”
40 “I tell you,” he replied, “if they keep quiet, the stones will cry out.”
The Stones would Cry out, God is not the Stones, yet the Stones would cry out to God, yes its a metaphor, however at a literary point its a statement, that If we fail to Cry unto the Lord, His Creation will do so.

for if God exists every "place" then something called "place" must necessarily have been existent prior to God in order that he exist within it

Not necessarily, This universe, this world was created by God, For His Purpose, For His Glory. Prior To this Genesis 1:1 "In the Beginning God created the Heavens and the Earth,And the earth was without form and void and darkness was upon the face of the deep And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
God had a place, a very real place, but we could not see it. Your idea is very narrow of the finite universe as opposed to the infinite Capacity of the Father.

But if everything that is exists in God, then everything that is is one with God. Notice that Universe could be inserted in the place of God above and you have the same result.

No. Can the universe Give us life? Can the universe save us? Can the matter of the universe reach the very depths of our souls and cause us to love one another?

[JimL]

There is a distinction between the creator and the created. God being everywhere does not equate with everything being God.

Pantheism is the belief that God is the universe. Panentheism believes that while God pervades the universe, he is separate from the universe, extends beyond it, and has a separate identity from it. Christianity is a form of Panentheism, not Pantheism.

If God is everywhere, if he is infinite, then there is no other place existent that can be defined as the place of the universe. It was our discussion about space being the container of the universe which got me to thinking about this issue and in that discussion you and seer argued that space is distinct from and the immaterial container of the material universe. So if the universe, which you argue is finite, exists within a container we call space, which I assume that you define as finite as well, then what, other than the immaterial God, being that he is said to be infinite, contains the immaterial container?

[JimL]

JimL, try seperating your statements a bit here. Lets Break it down....

Does God exist every place? Well, Scripture more precisely, Psalm 139: 7-10 makes it clear God's presence is everywhere.
Where shall I go from your Spirit?
Or where shall I flee from your presence?
8 If I ascend to heaven, you are there!
If I make my bed in Sheol, you are there!
9 If I take the wings of the morning
and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea,
10 even there your hand shall lead me,
and your right hand shall hold me.

Exactly, if God is infinite he must needs exist every place, which would mean that there is no other place but in God for anything else to exist.

No This is Pantheism. Pantheism by definition states God is in everything and everything is God, people, places and things. This Contradicts Scripture when Luke 19:39-40
39 Some of the Pharisees in the crowd said to Jesus, “Teacher, rebuke your disciples!”
40 “I tell you,” he replied, “if they keep quiet, the stones will cry out.”
The Stones would Cry out, God is not the Stones, yet the Stones would cry out to God, yes its a metaphor, however at a literary point its a statement, that If we fail to Cry unto the Lord, His Creation will do so.

We are not really discussing scripture, though the logic of it, or lack thereof, does come into play.

Not necessarily, This universe, this world was created by God, For His Purpose, For His Glory. Prior To this Genesis 1:1 "In the Beginning God created the Heavens and the Earth,And the earth was without form and void and darkness was upon the face of the deep And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
God had a place, a very real place, but we could not see it. Your idea is very narrow of the finite universe as opposed to the infinite Capacity of the Father.

The question is if God exists in a "place" then the "place" must have existed prior to the existence of God himself which as you can see prima facie is absurd. Although if you want to go by scripture it does state that God exists in a "place," a "place" called heaven.

No. Can the universe Give us life? Can the universe save us? Can the matter of the universe reach the very depths of our souls and cause us to love one another?

Irrelevant to the topic at hand.

[Sparko]

If God is everywhere, if he is infinite, then there is no other place existent that can be defined as the place of the universe. It was our discussion about space being the container of the universe which got me to thinking about this issue and in that discussion you and seer argued that space is distinct from and the immaterial container of the material universe. So if the universe, which you argue is finite, exists within a container we call space, which I assume that you define as finite as well, then what, other than the immaterial God, being that he is said to be infinite, contains the immaterial container?

Well for one, God doesn't just exist in the universe. He exists outside of it.

[Sparko]

The food I just ate exists inside me. But I am not the food, nor is the food me.

[JimL]

Well for one, God doesn't just exist in the universe. He exists outside of it.

The question is not where does God exist, God being, as you say, infinite, can't possibly exist in any place. The question is: where else but within the infinite, which you define as God, could the place of the universe be? The infinite, being that there is nothing external to it, can't be said to exist in another, but by the same logic that infinite, being that there is nothing external to it, no other "place", must be the "place," in which all else exists. This being the case, unless I am missing something, the finite cannot be distinct or separate from the infinite, but must be co-existent with it as a part co-exists with the whole.

[Catholicity]

he question is not where does God exist, God being, as you say, infinite, can't possibly exist in any place.

The Trouble is Jim....Your aren't yet able to necessarily seperate God from the physical matter of the universe. He who is the creator of the universe and whose presence is everywhere, all at the same time, but is not the same as the physical seen matter.

The question is: where else but within the infinite, which you define as God, could the place of the universe be?

God exists everywhere, yet also exists in His own dwelling place which is unseen and unknowable to humans. even you.

but by the same logic that infinite, being that there is nothing external to it, no other "place", must be the "place," in which all else exists

The Logic you are using is flawed. its seeing God as limited with limited ideas. Rather than think is there a potential of for heaven AND for God to exist everywhere else... you are saying it must be one or the other or so it seems. God isn't black and white, He's full of color.

And what I said earlier wasn't irrelevant. You said if we replace the Universe with God we will get the same result and the answer is no...

[JimL]

The food I just ate exists inside me. But I am not the food, nor is the food me.

The food you ate exists within you, and you exist within the universe, and if the universe, like you and your food is also finite, then it exists within the infinite, and just like you and your food are a part of the universe in which you exist, if the universe itself exists within another body, then it too is a part of that infinite body.

[JimL]

The Trouble is Jim....Your aren't yet able to necessarily seperate God from the physical matter of the universe. He who is the creator of the universe and whose presence is everywhere, all at the same time, but is not the same as the physical seen matter.

This is a theological assertion, and has nothing to do with the logic of the problem.

God exists everywhere, yet also exists in His own dwelling place which is unseen and unknowable to humans. even you.

As above, whether true or not, this is a mere belief. And, if God exists everywhere, then his dwelling place is everywhere, which means that he exists in himself not in a place, for if he existed in a place then that place would had to have existed prior to God himself in order that he exist within it. There can be no "place" external to the infinite in which the infinite dwells.

The Logic you are using is flawed. its seeing God as limited with limited ideas. Rather than think is there a potential of for heaven AND for God to exist everywhere else... you are saying it must be one or the other or so it seems. God isn't black and white, He's full of color.

The logic I am using may be flawed, that remains to be seen, but Catholicity, unless you yourself argue with logic, rather than with scripture and belief, you can hardly fault my logic.

And what I said earlier wasn't irrelevant. You said if we replace the Universe with God we will get the same result and the answer is no...

Again, that is an assertion based on your beliefs and nothing else, so though it is a valid belief, it is not a logical philosophical argument.

[mikewhitney]

Jim,

On what basis do you say that God is infinite?


Then what is the nature of this infinite quality?
Are we talking about God being unconstrained a beginning of time?

If you are not talking of God in scripture, then what are you talking about? a mere conjectured philosophical play on words?

What set of qualities or features are we talking about that intersect between God's existence and nature with the "universe" (where 'universe' is usually speaking of the physical perceptible/measurable realm of existence)?

In your original post you seem to speak of God needing the physical realm for Him to dwell in. In reality we don't really have a good concept to describe where God dwells, scripturally speaking. We just have the sense that God is not constrained to earthly/human sort of limits.

If you are talking about some philosophical concept of a god, not based on reality/scripture, it would help for you to clarify that point.

[JimL]

Jim,

On what basis do you say that God is infinite?


Then what is the nature of this infinite quality?
Are we talking about God being unconstrained a beginning of time?

What I mean is that whatever is infinite exists in itself, and not in another thing, for if it exists in another thing then the other would need be infinite itself, and a greater infinite then the infinite that exists within it which is absurd.

If you are not talking of God in scripture, then what are you talking about? a mere conjectured philosophical play on words?

There are many different scriptures and many different assumed Gods, I am talking about the necessary existent no matter what title you wish to give it.

Sorry, got to go.

[Sparko]

The food you ate exists within you, and you exist within the universe, and if the universe, like you and your food is also finite, then it exists within the infinite, and just like you and your food are a part of the universe in which you exist, if the universe itself exists within another body, then it too is a part of that infinite body.

The point of my analogy is that something can exist within something larger and not be that larger thing, or vice versa. And as Cath said, God is not matter, nor energy. He is spirit.

In a sense, you can say that everything is a part of God, being as God created everything and sustains it and his creation reflects attributes of Him, just as an artist's creation reflects the attributes of the artist. But that doesn't make the universe God, nor God the universe. They are separate.


Now you don't have to believe that. But that is what Christianity believes and it is entirely logical.