Idol worship and sacrifice

[Bowman]

You still are ignoring the discrepancy of how it is that no unclean thing can be in the presence of the Father, but they CAN be in Jesus' presence; in fact, they cannot flee Him unless He commands them to leave. If you believe that both are God, then why the inconsistencies??


Regards,

jo

You claimed to study the original scriptures (almost immediately after you lambasted the idea of studying Greek!) so now would be a great opportunity to see you demonstrate what the original languages of your proof verses actually state regarding your assertion here.

You dismissed the notion before...let's see if you do this same this time.

[Bowman]

This means you believe that Satan had the power to take Jesus' physical body into a spiritual realm, which gives him even greater power than merely taking a spirit into the spirit realm.

No, sister.

There is no mention of being in the spirit in this encounter.

I have already shown you where, in Revelation, Satan has the power to give life - is that not a form of the power to create? In my mind it certainly is.

No, sister, you have not.

However, why not posit some scripture so that we can review it in the Greek...like you claimed to have studied...

Actually, technically, the version of created used to describe along with Satan (Lucifer), is not the version you are applying.

Eze 28:13 E-Sword (emphasis added)

Thou hast beenH1961 in EdenH5731 the gardenH1588 of God;H430 everyH3605 preciousH3368 stoneH68 was thy covering,H4540 the sardius,H124 topaz,H6357 and the diamond,H3095 the beryl,H8658 the onyx,H7718 and the jasper,H3471 the sapphire,H5601 the emerald,H5306 and the carbuncle,H1304 and gold:H2091 the workmanshipH4399 of thy tabretsH8596 and of thy pipesH5345 was preparedH3559 in thee in the dayH3117 that thou wast created.H1254

H1254
בּרא
bârâ'
baw-raw'
A primitive root; (absolutely) to create; (qualified) to cut down (a wood), select, feed (as formative processes): - choose, create (creator), cut down, dispatch, do, make (fat).

Here is the one you are hoping for, but which is NOT the version used:

G2938
κτίσμα
ktisma
ktis'-mah
From G2936; an original formation (concretely), that is, product (created thing): - creature.

Now you are mixing Hebrew and Greek, sister!

The creation verb 'bara' is used by Yahweh when something is created band new for the very first time, by God.

This is the same verb employed in the Genesis creation account for the creation of the Universe and for Adam & eve.

So...yes, sister...Satan was indeed created....and no... he is not Jesus' brother!

[Tanakh Keeper]

I can agree with what you have said in your OP about the commandments against worshiping "people or objects," but not that it applies to Christians. You seem to have overlooked a scriptural exception that was touched on earlier that I would like to draw to your attention.
We read Genesis18 that Abraham was approached by three "men," one of whom he addressed as "my Lord" (vs 3) and "the Judge of all the earth" (vs 25)

Hello xcav8tor

Sorry to have missed your post to me. After this thread starting referencing other religions than Judaism, I paid far less attention to it.

To respond to your question, I must point out that Jews and Christians have two different bibles. So quotes you may make from your bible may differ from the holy text. The basis of your mis-understanding in this question is taking single sentences out of context and pasting them together as you did with verses 3 and 25. Let’s look at the translated English text from the Hebrew bible.

G e n 18:1-4 Now the Lord appeared to him (i.e. Abraham) in the plains of Mamre and he was sitting at the entrance of the tent when the day was hot and he lifted his eyes and saw, and behold, three men were standing beside him, and he saw and he ran toward them from the entrance of the tent, and he prostrated himself to the ground. And he said, "My lords, if only I have found favor in your eyes, please do not pass on from beside your servant. Please let a little water be taken and bathe your feet and recline under the tree.

The text clearly states that the Lord was already next to Abraham at the entrance of his tent. Abraham saw three men approaching because he had to get up and run toward them. None of them were G-d. Abraham doesn’t address any of them as his Lord. Instead he addresses them as ‘My lords’. That is akin to calling them ‘misters’ as he doesn’t know their names. Abraham was just being polite to the three strangers, but he wasn’t offering to worship them.

These men are NOT who Abraham addresses in verse 25. Let’s start at verse 22 and read what actually happened.

G e n 18:22-25 And the men turned from there and went to Sodom, and Abraham was still standing before the Lord. And Abraham approached and said, "Will You even destroy the righteous with the wicked? Perhaps there are fifty righteous men in the midst of the city; will You even destroy and not forgive the place for the sake of the fifty righteous men who are in its midst? Far be it from You to do a thing such as this, to put to death the righteous with the wicked so that the righteous should be like the wicked. Far be it from You! Will the Judge of the entire earth not perform justice?"

The text clearly states that the men went away and Abraham resumes talking to G-d. Thus, the text doesn’t support your belief that G-d has a physical form.

There have been other similar instances where a visible and/or physical being has been identified as the G-d of the Jewish scriptures (the Angel of the LORD appearing to Moses at the burning bush in Exodus 3; the "man" Jacob wrestled with until dawn in Genesis 32).
So we have special situations in which G-D appears visibly or physically in the presence of Biblical characters and interacts with them. There is no doubt that YAHWEH is personally present and being worshiped in these accounts. So the question is, "When G-D decided to appear temporarily in physical form to these people, was it idolatry for them to worship Him?" and if not, "Were G-D to choose to take on a permanent physical form, would it still be idolatry to recognize Him as G-D?" You say that, "To direct worship to a physical form is a type of rebellion against the Creator," but if the Creator Himself appears in physical form, how can it be rebellion to worship Him?

As you correctly point out, Jacob wrestled with an angel, not with G-d. G-d’s voice emanated from the burning bush, but the bush wasn’t G-d. No more than a person’s voice emanating from a telephone means that the telephone is that person.

Basically, there is NO situation, not one, in the entire Hebrew Bible where G-d takes on a physical form. But G-d does warn us over and over, not to worship idols. The message from G-d is loud and clear not to worship physical forms.

[John D. Brey]

Basically, there is NO situation, not one, in the entire Hebrew Bible where G-d takes on a physical form. But G-d does warn us over and over, not to worship idols. The message from G-d is loud and clear not to worship physical forms.

. . . And yet the Hebrew Bible is a physical form.

[sylvius]

. . . And yet the Hebrew Bible is a physical form.

And the body of God is a literal form

[Tanakh Keeper]

And the body of God is a literal form

Please provide proof from the Hebrew bible.

[xcav8tor]

To respond to your question, I must point out that Jews and Christians have two different bibles. So quotes you may make from your bible may differ from the holy text. The basis of your mis-understanding in this question is taking single sentences out of context and pasting them together as you did with verses 3 and 25. Let’s look at the translated English text from the Hebrew bible.

Hi Tanakh Keeper,

Before I respond to your post, I wanted to ask you if there is an online version of the Hebrew Bible that you use, and if so, if you could share the link with me. Thanks.

Regards,
xcav8tor

[Bowman]

To respond to your question, I must point out that Jews and Christians have two different bibles. So quotes you may make from your bible may differ from the holy text. The basis of your mis-understanding in this question is taking single sentences out of context and pasting them together as you did with verses 3 and 25. Let’s look at the translated English text from the Hebrew bible.

G e n 18:1-4 Now the Lord appeared to him (i.e. Abraham) in the plains of Mamre and he was sitting at the entrance of the tent when the day was hot and he lifted his eyes and saw, and behold, three men were standing beside him, and he saw and he ran toward them from the entrance of the tent, and he prostrated himself to the ground. And he said, "My lords, if only I have found favor in your eyes, please do not pass on from beside your servant. Please let a little water be taken and bathe your feet and recline under the tree.

The text clearly states that the Lord was already next to Abraham at the entrance of his tent. Abraham saw three men approaching because he had to get up and run toward them. None of them were G-d. Abraham doesn’t address any of them as his Lord. Instead he addresses them as ‘My lords’. That is akin to calling them ‘misters’ as he doesn’t know their names. Abraham was just being polite to the three strangers, but he wasn’t offering to worship them.

These men are NOT who Abraham addresses in verse 25. Let’s start at verse 22 and read what actually happened.

G e n 18:22-25 And the men turned from there and went to Sodom, and Abraham was still standing before the Lord. And Abraham approached and said, "Will You even destroy the righteous with the wicked? Perhaps there are fifty righteous men in the midst of the city; will You even destroy and not forgive the place for the sake of the fifty righteous men who are in its midst? Far be it from You to do a thing such as this, to put to death the righteous with the wicked so that the righteous should be like the wicked. Far be it from You! Will the Judge of the entire earth not perform justice?"

The text clearly states that the men went away and Abraham resumes talking to G-d. Thus, the text doesn’t support your belief that G-d has a physical form.

Entirely incorrect and without any merit whatsoever, brother.

Observe what you overlooked...


· Yahweh appears as ‘three men’ to Abraham (Gen 18.1 – 2)
· Abraham addresses the ‘three men’ as ‘my Lords’ (adonai - plural)
· Abrahams responds… “If I have found favor in your (singular) sight (singular)…” (Gen 18.3)
· “They answered Abraham” indicating that each of the ‘three men’ were Lord (Gen 18.5) (Effectively eliminating the three angels or God and two angels argument)
· Yahweh speaks of Yahweh in the third person (Gen 18.14, 19)
· God the Father remained to talk with Abraham, then returned to Heaven without going to Sodom (Gen 18.33)
· According to the text, there are at least two Yahwehs in Genesis 18 – 19. One Yahweh stated that he would go down to Sodom – and then two of the ‘three men’ went to Sodom (Gen 18.2, 22; 19.12). Abraham remained talking with another Yahweh (Gen 18.21 – 22). Later, Yahweh is described as being in Heaven while Yahweh is mentioned as being in Sodom (Gen 19.24)
· Gen 18 -19 shows us that there was never such a thing as the ‘Majestic Plural’

[sylvius]

Please provide proof from the Hebrew bible.

Exodus 20:2. "anochi Hashem eloheicha",
I am the Lord, your God, who took you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.


"Hashem" is the four lettered name.

So: "I am the Name written with four letters" --

Even: "I am the Name written with the beginletters of "yom hashishi vay'chulu hashamayim", the last two words of Genesis 1:31 and the first two words of Genesis 2:1, thus forming the entrance of the Sabbath."

[John D. Brey]

And the body of God is a literal form.

That's debatable. . . But Tanakh Keeper claims that the Hebrew Bible considers worship of tangible things idolatry. ------ Yet the Hebrew bible is a tangible thing. ---- If Hashem rejects tangible mediation, say a statue, or incarnation, then why would the Hebrew bible, which is a tangible thing, be considered a fitting medium for the voice of Hashem?

[sylvius]

That's debatable. . . But Tanakh Keeper claims that the Hebrew Bible considers worship of tangible things idolatry. ------ Yet the Hebrew bible is a tangible thing. ---- If Hashem rejects tangible mediation, say a statue, or incarnation, then why would the Hebrew bible, which is a tangible thing, be considered a fitting medium for the voice of Hashem?

You mean it is parchment +ink + wood ?

It is said to be black fire on white fire, the black of the ink on the white of the parchment.

[Tanakh Keeper]

Exodus 20:2. "anochi Hashem eloheicha",
I am the Lord, your God, who took you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.


"Hashem" is the four lettered name.

So: "I am the Name written with four letters" --

Even: "I am the Name written with the beginletters of "yom hashishi vay'chulu hashamayim", the last two words of Genesis 1:31 and the first two words of Genesis 2:1, thus forming the entrance of the Sabbath."

How does your post provide proof that G-d has a physical form?

[Tanakh Keeper]

That's debatable. . . But Tanakh Keeper claims that the Hebrew Bible considers worship of tangible things idolatry. ------ Yet the Hebrew bible is a tangible thing. ---- If Hashem rejects tangible mediation, say a statue, or incarnation, then why would the Hebrew bible, which is a tangible thing, be considered a fitting medium for the voice of Hashem?

We don't worship burning bushes or the bible, only G-d.

[Tanakh Keeper]

Hi Tanakh Keeper,

Before I respond to your post, I wanted to ask you if there is an online version of the Hebrew Bible that you use, and if so, if you could share the link with me. Thanks.

Regards,
xcav8tor

For online use, I use this bible at chabad.org. Here is the link http://www.chabad.org/library/bible_...with-Rashi.htm

This is an English translation of the Original Text.

[sylvius]

How does your post provide proof that G-d has a physical form?

The letters form the body of the word.

Letters are physical forms.

Even human of nature.

Lips, teeth, tongue, throat form the letters.