Idol worship and sacrifice

[Bowman]

Correct; there is no contradiction in scripture. Yet you have presented one yourself through the interpretation you just gave about Rev 19:12-13. You are either unwilling or are unable to see it.

Show us the 'contradiction' in the Greek, sister.

Jesus did create our world. He did what He had seen the Father do.

Jesus saw the Father create the world - so He then re-created it again, sister?

Come on....

Jesus is also the God of Abraham whom the Jews have failed to recognize is their Messiah, Savior and Redeemer.

Since Jews fail to see the truth, how can they be worshipping the true God?

They cannot.

We see in Revelation that Jesus will receive the deed to the earth. He will also receive the keys over death and hell.

Where?

Would this be in yet another portion of the Holy Bible that has been properly 'translated'?

By keeping Father's commandments, in being the Creator of our world, in accomplishing Father's will concerning the Plan of Salvation, and through Jesus' sacrifice and Atonement for Father's spirit children, Father is going to give the earth to Jesus. Satan will be removed as the prince and god of this world, and will be cast into the lake of fire and brimstone. Jesus will then reign as the Lord and the God of this world forever and ever; and rightfully so.

Best regards,

jo

What are your thoughts on the Trinity, sister?

[jo7241974]

Bowman;3195950]Show us the 'contradiction' in the Greek, sister.

It isn't necessary to show your contradiction in any other language. If we were not to include the Book of Revelation in the NT, we would already have known that Jesus is also known as The Word of God, as well as many other names. Therefore, this is not a secret name which is known only by Jesus. His secret name has not yet been revealed to us. He is the only one who knows it; and He will reveal it to us when He returns.

Jesus saw the Father create the world - so He then re-created it again, sister?

Come on....

Father did not create our world; Jesus did. Jesus has created many worlds. Jesus has not done anything He did not first see the Father do.

Hebrews 1:2 KJV

Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

John 5:19 KJV

Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.

Since Jews fail to see the truth, how can they be worshipping the true God?

They cannot.

The Jews fail to recognize that Jesus is the Messiah; that He is the Son of Almighty God. They have never stopped believing in the God of Abraham. When Jesus came in the flesh, He didn't change His identity and stop being the God of Abraham. The Jews have failed to recognize that He is the same God they have always worshipped. Even though they do not believe that Jesus is the Christ, they still believe in God. There is a big difference between recognizing that Jesus is the promised Savior, versus not believing in God at all. Just because Jesus was born in the flesh, the Jews didn't wake up on the day He was born and decide to stop believing in God. Jesus wept because they didn't know who He was; not because they stopped believing in Him. Jesus does not want them to have to suffer for their sins due to their failure to recognize Him. If they do not recognize His Atonement and seek His forgiveness, then they will have to pay their debt in hell until the end times when hell delivers up its dead to be judged. They could have avoided this punishment if they had recognized Him. Jesus' Atonement covers their sins as well; but Jesus would have preferred they not have to pay for their sins when He could have given them forgiveness so that they did not have to suffer in hell until their sins have been paid in full.

As a result of their not recognizing Jesus, even though they had been given plenty of prophesies about His coming, God then put a real blindness over their eyes so that they are unable to see Jesus' true identity. Only infrequently does God see fit to allow a Jew to see Jesus as He really is. However, the majority will not have their blindness removed until the end times. Until God removes the blindness He has placed on them, they will not be held accountable for not being able to see Jesus' true identify. If God were to hold them accountable after placing a blindness upon them, then God would become a respector of persons, which would then deny one of God's attributes and God would cease to be God.

Where?

Revelation 1:18 KJV

I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

Revelation 5:1-5 KJV

1 And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals.

2 And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof?

3 And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon.

4 And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon.

5 And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.

BTW, the sealed book with writing on both the front and backside is indicative of a "deed". Also, we have been previously taught in the NT, prior to the time John received the Revelation, that Jesus is appointed heir of all things. When Jesus returns, this will all be made official, and the prince of the earth (satan) will be cast into the lake of fire for ever and ever.

What are your thoughts on the Trinity, sister?

The trinity is a theory which I do not agree with. I have never believed it; not even as a Lutheran. This is one of the reasons I post mostly in the "Unorthodox" areas on TWEB; I reject the trinity theory.

Best regards,

jo

[Tanakh Keeper]

Hi jo
There isn’t much that is correct in your observation.

May I offer an observation? God would be particularly angry with the Hebrews when they did build idols to worship (for instance, the golden calf while Moses was away receiving the Ten Commandments)

It was mostly the “mixed multitudes” that created the golden calf. As for the few Jews that joined in, it was a tiny minority that did so. G-d was very fresh in the vast majority’s minds.

It is interesting to read how Paul, when he went to preach the Gospel message to the Greeks (who were pagans), pointed to their graven images in order to help them understand what he was teaching. He recognized that they already had figured out there must be a god(s) - but they didn't know WHO or WHERE he was. Since they already believed there was a greater power, it must have been easier for Paul to convert them. They just needed to be taught WHO their God was.

Paul failed among the Jews since his message was opposite of Torah. We already knew who G-d is, He appeared to the entire nation of Israel at the mountain. Paul’s idol wasn’t the god that we knew.

The sacrifices which the people were taught to bring to God in the Temple are a type for Christ.

Nonsense. We don’t need to use types and shadows. We have the plain meaning in Torah. The sacrifice of the Christian deity breaks many of G-d’s own Laws for sacrifice. Turning G-d’s Law on their head and spinning them to have the opposite meaning does not make for a valid sacrifice.

It is my understanding that once the Temple was destroyed in 70AD that there have been no (animal) sacrifices because there is no longer a Temple where (animal) sacrifices can be made. However, the Jewish people are anxious to be able to rebuild the Temple so that sacrifices can once more be offered. Is this correct?

Your first sentence was nearly correct, I inserted one word to correct it. However, sacrifices are already being made in accordance with G-d’s Law throughout the present day. Now we sacrifice the fruit of our lips with prayer and atonement. We aren’t anxious to rebuild the Temple per se. We are anxious for the future Messiah to build the Temple. Once it is rebuilt, we will know that we are entering the Messianic Age, an era of peace for all humankind.

[jo7241974]

Tanakh Keeper;3196197]Hi jo
There isn’t much that is correct in your observation.

It was mostly the “mixed multitudes” that created the golden calf. As for the few Jews that joined in, it was a tiny minority that did so. G-d was very fresh in the vast majority’s minds.

I used the Golden Calf as an example. The Jews who participated were punished with death. BTW, I have not heard that there were "mixed" multitudes when Moses went up the mountain - only that there were Israelites being led around the desert by Moses.

Paul failed among the Jews since his message was opposite of Torah. We already knew who G-d is, He appeared to the entire nation of Israel at the mountain. Paul’s idol wasn’t the god that we knew.

Nonsense. We don’t need to use types and shadows. We have the plain meaning in Torah. The sacrifice of the Christian deity breaks many of G-d’s own Laws for sacrifice. Turning G-d’s Law on their head and spinning them to have the opposite meaning does not make for a valid sacrifice.

It is because you do not believe that Jesus IS the promised Messiah that you think Paul's "idol" was not the God the Jews knew. It is because he was serving the God of Abraham that he persecuted the Christians in the first place, due to his not recognizing that Jesus is the Messiah. He did not realize that he was thus persecuting the very God he thought he was serving.

Your first sentence was nearly correct, I inserted one word to correct it. However, sacrifices are already being made in accordance with G-d’s Law throughout the present day. Now we sacrifice the fruit of our lips with prayer and atonement. We aren’t anxious to rebuild the Temple per se. We are anxious for the future Messiah to build the Temple. Once it is rebuilt, we will know that we are entering the Messianic Age, an era of peace for all humankind.

Do you think it is significant that all of sudden, after years of practicing animal sacrifices, the Jews stopped this practice? What is the explanation given to today's Jews for this abrupt change? Do you see any "coincidence" in the timing of this change with that of the crucifixion of Jesus? (Thank you for clarifying the "animal" sacrifice.)

Best regards,

jo

[Bowman]

Father did not create our world; Jesus did. Jesus has created many worlds. Jesus has not done anything He did not first see the Father do.

Best regards,

jo

Even the JS ‘translation’ informs us of the Trinity, sister.

Who created the world?

· Father (Gen 2.7, Psalm 102.25, Hebrews 1.2)
· Son (John 1.3, Col 1.16, Hebrews 1.2)
· Spirit (Gen 1.2, Job 33.4, Psalm 104.30)


It is little wonder why you have been so reluctant in post, after post, after post, to actually posit scripture and defend what you believe in…as you don’t know scripture, yes?

You must be riding on pure emotion.

[Tanakh Keeper]

BTW, I have not heard that there were "mixed" multitudes when Moses went up the mountain - only that there were Israelites being led around the desert by Moses.

E x o 12:37-38 The Children of Israel journeyed from Ramses to Succoth, about six hundred thousand men on foot, aside from children. Also a mixed multitude went up with them, and flock and cattle, very much like livestock.

The mixed multitude are people of various nationalities that took advantage of the slave release program and accompanied the Jews out of Egypt.

Do you think it is significant that all of sudden, after years of practicing animal sacrifices, the Jews stopped this practice? What is the explanation given to today's Jews for this abrupt change?

There was no abrupt change. First, the Torah is Eternal. G-d always knew that a time would come that His Nation of Priests wouldn't have a Temple. It wasn't a surprise to Him. He told us that prayer and repentance earns atonement. Second, many Jews lived far away from the Temple, even in those times. Since animal sacrifices were only ever allowed at the Temple, obviously, most people used prayer and repentance to earn atonement even when the Temple stood. Do you really think that Jews that lived weeks away from the Temple (while it stood) were unable to earn atonement? G-d is much more practical than you know. By NOT doing animal sacrifices today, we are OBEYING G-d's Laws.

[footwasher]

Hi TK,

How do you understand the promise from God that Israel would be a blessing to all the nations as stated in Scripture?

1 The LORD said to Abram: "Go forth from the land of your kinsfolk and from your father's house to a land that I will show you.

2 "I will make of you a great nation, and I will bless you; I will make your name great, so that you will be a blessing.

3 I will bless those who bless you and curse those who curse you. All the communities of the earth shall find blessing in you." Genesis 12

Thank you.

[Tanakh Keeper]

I don't see any relevance to the OP.

[footwasher]

Hi TK,

You wrote:

First, the Torah is Eternal. G-d always knew that a time would come that His Nation of Priests wouldn't have a Temple. It wasn't a surprise to Him. He told us that prayer and repentance earns atonement.

You say that His Nation of Priests wouldn't have a Temple.

How would the Nation of Priests continue to function and what would their efforts lead to? And would the Levitical priesthood (kohn) still be valid, since rabbin are not permitted to carry on that role?

[4 Zion]

Every religion utilizes traditions to enhance their worship or spiritual focus . Whether it is just going through the movements or really deepening their walk depends on the persons spiritual state. For instance many in christianity utilize special practices at Easter and Christmas. These are not commanded by God but are traditions of men.Aspects of the services and the passing of the offering plates, baptismal rituals, communion etc. Creeds, prayers and readings and recitings of specific portions of scripture or quotes from beloved authors such as the historical church fathers and so on. The reality is these things are so ingrained and since we relate them to our practice we may not even recognize them as extra biblical traditions. Honoring the man made sabbath rather then the biblical God ordained sabbath could also be construed as a form of idol worship in the same sense although of much more significant importance since it is a biblical command (4th) yet it is disregarded in favor of tradition. Hmmmm

[Tanakh Keeper]

Hi TK,

You say that His Nation of Priests wouldn't have a Temple.

How would the Nation of Priests continue to function and what would their efforts lead to? And would the Levitical priesthood (kohn) still be valid, since rabbin are not permitted to carry on that role?

We lead by example. We maintain the perfection of Torah and its transmission through time. Our efforts have lead to the betterment of humankind. Our efforts have led to widely ingrained beliefs of freedom and human rights.

The Levis and Kohens are two separate groups. They are both still valid.

[footwasher]

We lead by example. We maintain the perfection of Torah and its transmission through time. Our efforts have lead to the betterment of humankind. Our efforts have led to widely ingrained beliefs of freedom and human rights.

The Levis and Kohens are two separate groups. They are both still valid.

Quote
Kohein (pl. Kohanim) (KOH-hayn; koh-HAHN-eem)
Priest. A descendant of Aaron, charged with performing various rites in the Temple. This is not the same thing as a rabbi.

http://www.jewfaq.org/cgi-bin/search.cgi?Keywords=kohen

Quote
Levi (LAY-vee); Levite (LEE-vahyt)
1) A descendant of the tribe of Levi, which was set aside to perform certain duties in connection with the Temple; 2) Son of Jacob (Israel). Ancestor of the tribe of Levi

http://www.jewfaq.org/cgi-bin/search...eywords=levite


Excellent, so when we speak of the Nation of Priests, we are not speaking of the levites, the kohein, or rabbin, but those who are Torah observant.

Since Torah is not burnt offerings:


6 For I desire mercy, not sacrifice, and acknowledgment of God rather than burnt offerings Hosea 6:

Nor setting aside firstborn, (like maybe Hannah set aside Samuel to serve in the Temple):

7Will the Lord be pleased with thousands of rams, with myriad streams of oil? Shall I give my firstborn for my transgression, the fruit of my body for the sin of my soul? 8. He has told you, O man, what is good, and what the Lord demands of you; but to do justice, to love loving-kindness, and to walk discreetly with your G-d. Micah 6

But rather, acting to cover up of sins:

Kapparot
Lit. atonements. A custom during the Days of Awe.

http://www.jewfaq.org/cgi-bin/search...ords=atonement

Quote
The New Revised Standard Version (NRSV) kept “mercy seat,” while the New International Version (NIV) translated “atonement cover,” and the New Jewish Publication Society Translation (NJPS) simply renders “cover.”

http://rsc.byu.edu/archived/prelude-...s-english-tran

IOW, the nation of priests would function such that the world would benefit by atoning acts, a covering which would hide the imperfections of the world from God, and bring God and Man together, since sin cannot be present in the Holy Presence of God. This would be through prayer and acts of kindness, a good equivalent to the sacrifices that the Temple priests performed, as taught by Rabbi Johanan ben Zakai in his discourse with Rabbi Joshua in front of the Temple ruins after its destruction by the Romans, on the basis of Hosea 6:6:

http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1P1-126272079.html

All very neat and tidy.

Question
How are the acts of kindness equivalent to the Temple sacrifice?

If Hosea is to be followed, wouldn't the Temple sacrifice be the mistaken ritual?

IOW, had Israel had been functioning erroneously all along until Hosea pointed out the mistake?

[Scrawly]

Every religion utilizes traditions to enhance their worship or spiritual focus . Whether it is just going through the movements or really deepening their walk depends on the persons spiritual state. For instance many in christianity utilize special practices at Easter and Christmas. These are not commanded by God but are traditions of men.Aspects of the services and the passing of the offering plates, baptismal rituals, communion etc. Creeds, prayers and readings and recitings of specific portions of scripture or quotes from beloved authors such as the historical church fathers and so on. The reality is these things are so ingrained and since we relate them to our practice we may not even recognize them as extra biblical traditions. Honoring the man made sabbath rather then the biblical God ordained sabbath could also be construed as a form of idol worship in the same sense although of much more significant importance since it is a biblical command (4th) yet it is disregarded in favor of tradition. Hmmmm

Umm, no. We already went over this very issue and I dispute the adherence to the Sabbath on Biblical grounds. Once again, if you deem one day more sacred than the other - that is well and good. I, however, deem all days alike. We are both entitled to our position due to our freedom in Christ and thus neither of us are in the wrong - unless of course you wish to keep imposing a personal matter of conscience unto your brothers and sisters.

[4 Zion]

Yeah sure your entitled to your opinion!

[Tanakh Keeper]

We lead by example. We maintain the perfection of Torah and its transmission through time. Our efforts have lead to the betterment of humankind. Our efforts have led to widely ingrained beliefs of freedom and human rights.

The Levis and Kohens are two separate groups. They are both still valid.

Kohein (pl. Kohanim) (KOH-hayn; koh-HAHN-eem)
Priest. A descendant of Aaron, charged with performing various rites in the Temple. This is not the same thing as a rabbi.
Levi (LAY-vee); Levite (LEE-vahyt)
1) A descendant of the tribe of Levi, which was set aside to perform certain duties in connection with the Temple; 2) Son of Jacob (Israel). Ancestor of the tribe of Levi
Excellent, so when we speak of the Nation of Priests, we are not speaking of the levites, the kohein, or rabbin, but those who are Torah observant.

And so I agreed with you. The Nation of Priests is equivalent to the Nation of Israel, i.e. the Jews. But then you go haywire on me.

Applying Christian theology to Jewish teachings won’t get you anywhere, but the state of confusion that you portray in the rest of your post.

Torah is G-d’s instructions to us. You are completely wrong that one person can atone for another. Moses, the greatest teacher in history, tried it and G-d corrected him by stating that each person could only atone for their own sins (E x o 32:30-34).

IOW, the nation of priests would function such that the world would benefit by atoning acts, a covering which would hide the imperfections of the world from God, and bring God and Man together, since sin cannot be present in the Holy Presence of God.

It is plain that your idol worship is a mechanism to weaken your belief in the true G-d and bring the concept of a god down to your level. You think anything could be hidden from G-d? You think G-d can’t abide His own Creation? The G-d that Judaism teaches is the Almighty. He is Unique and the One and Only.

The real question is to you from my OP.

Idol worship is a practice in which one worships a physical form, instead of the creator of the physical form. Idolatry came about because ancient people recognized that they were dependent on a higher power. They knew they had to rely on a controlling heavenly force, though they were unsure whether there was a single power or a multiplicity of powers. Regardless, they still constructed idol(s) that represented in physical form, the higher power(s) in which they believed. G-d knows that humans, as physical beings, have an urge to show devotion to physical objects. Idolatry is a counterfeit attempt to satisfy the basic human need to connect to a dimension beyond ourselves. Idolaters labels as “gods” people or objects, and then attempt to use them to get salvation and comfort. These created things with a physical presence are more controllable than an all-powerful G-d that is in all places at all times. However, ultimate freedom can never be found in denial. To experience true freedom, we must seek out the authentic values and meanings for which all humans desperately want, which is the One Creator.

Why do you worship a physical form, a created being, instead of the true Almighty G-d?