If life begins as conception, what about miscarriages?

[Pitchforkpat]

OK, so it's a question irrelevant to the abortion debate then.

I don’t think it’s “irrelevant”, no. If you can shed some doubt on the notion that every embryo is sacred, precious, and created by God, then you have a perfectly good reason to say, hands off my body. I’ll decide. Then it becomes, if that’s what your personal faith tells you then follow that, but since millions of these embryos die each year spontaneously, it doesn’t appear logically that every one is, in fact, a creation of God and precious or sacred. So I should be able to go with my beliefs and you with yours and the law shouldn’t require me to go against my beliefs.

The question is now exactly equivalent to the question of why God allows so many people to die prematurely, isn't it?

Or it could be rephrased as, “If every life is sacred, why would a god allow millions to die each year without having the chance of life?”

It’s a subtle difference, but I prefer it.

That's doubtful!

Well that’s a problem then. I think you’ll agree that, at least on the surface, it would seem absurd that God would create a system whereby millions of unique precious individuals are created every year to exist for a few weeks then die without ever having any awareness of their existence and any chance to make a decision to follow him or not to follow him.

Not only does it seem absurd, but utterly pointless. So, if you can offer no rational explanation for this, that would seem to me to be a little problematic for your view.

At very most, we would conclude that some conceptions do not count as the beginning of the life of a person, because sometimes the products of conception have miscombined chromosomes. But this says nothing at all about when my life or your life began.

I agree with most of this but if you accept that you can’t make a blanket statement that every miscombination of chromosomes that causes spontaneous abortion is a person, then it logically follows that some miscombinations might not be persons. And then you can’t necessarily say that personhood (life) begins at conception. It depends on how the chromosomes are combined. And if it doesn’t necessarily begin at conception, then we don’t know for sure when it begins.

I think it's grossly unwise and unvirtuous to create conditions that are likely to cause the destruction of embryos. But manslaughter? No, I'd say the connection is too indirect, since a lot of obese women successfully bear children. Abortion should be regarded the same as infanticide, but just how remote a cause we should treat as worthy of legal retribution isn't always obvious.

Accepted.

[Pitchforkpat]

Everyone deserves a chance to live their life

Then why did God design the system so that millions every year do not get that chance? If you truly believe what you said, you're going to have to explain this, Sparko.

[Sparko]

Then why did God design the system so that millions every year do not get that chance? If you truly believe what you said, you're going to have to explain this, Sparko.

God has the wisdom, knowledge and power to make such decisions of life and death. We do not. I can't read the mind of God, so you will have to ask him when you see him.

[TimZim]

God has the wisdom, knowledge and power to make such decisions of life and death. We do not. I can't read the mind of God, so you will have to ask him when you see him.

I am presuming Pfp doesnt believe your God exists. So how would he ask? His larger point, in a pluralistic society, is well taken. Who gets to be the final arbiter of when life begins, when, even assuming a god was the designer -- given the huge numbers of spontaneous abortion because of things like unviable genetics defects, this is not clear?

[Hamster]

heaven or hell

Sure, because heaven and hell have been described in Judeo-Christian religion as simple, set locations, with consistent qualities and aren't associated with all sorts of states and locations a soul can enter. Oh, and because heaven and hell are mentioned, there aren't any other places a soul can go because God would have told us about it and he has a legal obligation to do so.

[Sparko]

I am presuming Pfp doesnt believe your God exists. So how would he ask? His larger point, in a pluralistic society, is well taken. Who gets to be the final arbiter of when life begins, when, even assuming a god was the designer -- given the huge numbers of spontaneous abortion because of things like unviable genetics defects, this is not clear?

He may not believe God exists, but God knows PFP does. He will meet him one day.

and if God doesn't exist, then his question has no meaning.

[Sparko]

Sure, because heaven and hell have been described in Judeo-Christian religion as simple, set locations, with consistent qualities and aren't associated with all sorts of states and locations a soul can enter. Oh, and because heaven and hell are mentioned, there aren't any other places a soul can go because God would have told us about it and he has a legal obligation to do so.

Like Disneyland

[TimZim]

Sure, because heaven and hell have been described in Judeo-Christian religion as simple, set locations, with consistent qualities and aren't associated with all sorts of states and locations a soul can enter. Oh, and because heaven and hell are mentioned, there aren't any other places a soul can go because God would have told us about it and he has a legal obligation to do so.

I initially thought Pfp's thread was a little silly. But i guess he was on to something. I dont know a single Christian who would hesitate for a second telling us with no uncertainty that a one-month-old infant (i.e., 9 1/2 months since conception), who dies will go to heaven.

But apparently, you aren't sure where zygotes go.

So I guess that is as good of an admission as any that you don't consider zygotes/fetuses to be babies (i.e., full-fledged human beings).

[Hamster]

. I dont know a single Christian who would hesitate for a second telling us with no uncertainty that a one-month-old infant (i.e., 9 1/2 months sinde conception), who dies will go to heaven.

But apparently, you aren't sure where zygotes go.

So I guess that is as good of an admission as any that you don't consider zygotes/fetuses to be babies (i.e., full-fledged human beings).

I have no idea where zygotes and fetuses go. And just because I said that they didn't go to heaven when they die it doesn't imply that they aren't human beings. What if God sends them to an alien dimension where they get a chance to grow and mature before they go to either heaven or hell? The bible doesn't address this issue so we can only speculate. Also, just because a zygote or fetus goes to heaven it doesn't follow that there is no tragedy. If the fetuses and zygotes are floating in a part heaven, not experiencing as much joy and bliss that they could have, then it would be tragic because they weren't allowed to mature and fully know God. Just like it's tragic when a Christian dies, goes to heaven, but their sin has cost them from experiencing every joy that heaven has to offer.

[TimZim]

He may not believe God exists, but God knows PFP does. He will meet him one day.

and if God doesn't exist, then his question has no meaning.

It has meaning to people like you, who believe God considers zygotes to be full fledged human beings, merely at the beginning of its lifecycle. But apparently this isnt as clear to many pro life Christians as many seem to claim.

So there are two aspects of this discussion that are worthy of discussion:

1) why believe there was a designer when it seems like such a bad design, given the high percentages of abortions?

2) now that its clear even many Christians don't regard the eternal destiny of zygotes and fetuses in the same way they regard an infants eternal destiny, can we all agree to drop the hyperbolic murder rhetoric?

[TimZim]

I have no idea where zygotes and fetuses go. And just because I said that they didn't go to heaven when they die it doesn't imply that they aren't human beings.

But it does mean you dont think they are babies. If they were, they would go to the same place that babies go.

[Hamster]

But it does mean you dont think they are babies. If they were, they would go to the same place that babies go.

No, I'm not saying that babies wouldn't be in a similar predicament. There is also the issue of people with cataclysmic mental disorders. But like I said, we can only speculate.

[TimZim]

No, I'm not saying that babies wouldn't be in a similar predicament. There is also the issue of people with cataclysmic mental disorders. But like I said, we can only speculate.

So now its a "predicament"?

I think you need to figure this out before you think out loud in this thread.

I'm embarrassed for you.

[Hamster]

So now its a "predicament"?

Gorsh, why would anyone describe dying in infancy as an unpleasantly difficult, perplexing, or dangerous situation?

I'm embarrassed for you.

[TimZim]

Gorsh, why would anyone describe dying in infancy as an unpleasantly difficult, perplexing, or dangerous situation?

First, i wish my puppy had abs like that.

Otherwise, we weren't discussing dying infants.

We were discussing dead infants, zygotes, and fetuses. The only "predicament" left is the one you have, trying to fit all the pieces of your delusion together.

Too bad you don't have anything hinged to reality tie those pieces to.