Have we found artifacts from the early church?

[franktalk]

Anyone who wanted to push a hoax would know what tests were going to be performed. Is it possible that various old parts were assembled into these books? I have no horse in this race. But this is so early in the analysis, it may take twenty years. Just look at other hoaxes and see how long it took to uncover them. I am in no rush to see one outcome or another.

[Doug Shaver]

Anyone who wanted to push a hoax would know what tests were going to be performed.

Not necessarily. People who counterfeit money sometimes get caught. Not every hoaxer is as competent as he needs to be. Besides, he might have believed that he'd found a way to beat all the tests.

I am in no rush to see one outcome or another.

I'm in no rush to pronounce a final judgment one way or the other. That doesn't mean I can't justify holding an opinion as to what the final judgment will probably be whenever competent authorities render it.

[franktalk]

Not necessarily. People who counterfeit money sometimes get caught. Not every hoaxer is as competent as he needs to be. Besides, he might have believed that he'd found a way to beat all the tests.


I'm in no rush to pronounce a final judgment one way or the other. That doesn't mean I can't justify holding an opinion as to what the final judgment will probably be whenever competent authorities render it.

I would prefer that the whole thing is a hoax. If it is deemed to be from the first century then it may be given great worth. What if it is some child's toy and not meant to be serious. Maybe it is an ancient form of email. Can you imagine how this may be taken for something it is not. I see a lot of downside and very little upside.

To be of value to me it has to be:

1. From someone who truly knew people that witnessed the Gospel period.
2. It has to faithfully render what actually happened.
3. It must be pure so no odd ideas from Alexandria.

And how can we know any of this? We can't.

The dead sea scrolls must be taken with our knowledge of those who wrote them and the ancient traditions of the Jews. How do we place these little books in context?

[yo lunch]

I would prefer that the whole thing is a hoax. If it is deemed to be from the first century then it may be given great worth. What if it is some child's toy and not meant to be serious. Maybe it is an ancient form of email. Can you imagine how this may be taken for something it is not. I see a lot of downside and very little upside.

To be of value to me it has to be:

1. From someone who truly knew people that witnessed the Gospel period.
2. It has to faithfully render what actually happened.
3. It must be pure so no odd ideas from Alexandria.

And how can we know any of this? We can't.

The dead sea scrolls must be taken with our knowledge of those who wrote them and the ancient traditions of the Jews. How do we place these little books in context?

The pathetic thing is that there is such a paucity of evidence outside of the bible itself that the faithful find it necessary to engage in fraud and deception to further their cause!

[franktalk]

The pathetic thing is that there is such a paucity of evidence outside of the bible itself that the faithful find it necessary to engage in fraud and deception to further their cause!

No one of true faith would do this. Someone who is still of this world might do it because to them proof is required. The very nature of faith is the lack of proof. If indeed this is a fraud and that person calls them self a Christian then they are foolish.

[One Bad Pig]

The pathetic thing is that there is such a paucity of evidence outside of the bible itself that the faithful find it necessary to engage in fraud and deception to further their cause!

Only in yo lunch's world are Bedouin Arabs considered faithful Jews and Christians.

[rogue06]

Only in yo lunch's world are Bedouin Arabs considered faithful Jews and Christians.

Perhaps all us theists look alike to yoyo?

[DesertBerean]

Maybe it is an ancient form of email.

I trust you meant mail.

[Sparko]

I trust you meant mail.

I bet the lead plates were part of the power supply of an ancient computer network that worked on the principal of rubbing sheep together to generate electricity and stored it in lead-acid batteries.

[rogue06]

I bet the lead plates were part of the power supply of an ancient computer network that worked on the principal of rubbing sheep together to generate electricity and stored it in lead-acid batteries.

Certain shepherds who've been surprised have been using that excuse for centuries now.

[One Bad Pig]

Certain shepherds who've been surprised have been using that excuse for centuries now.

Ba-a-ad rogue.

[franktalk]

I trust you meant mail.

Email is a form of communication, lead sheets may have been a form of communication. What I wrote is exactly what I wanted to write. Get a life.

[Hamster]

[Doug Shaver]

No one of true faith would do this.

Sure they could, if they had faith that it was morally acceptable to fabricate evidence in support of something they believed.

Or, does faith justify only those beliefs that you yourself happen to hold? Is that what you mean by "true faith"?

[yo lunch]

No one of true faith would do this. Someone who is still of this world might do it because to them proof is required. The very nature of faith is the lack of proof. If indeed this is a fraud and that person calls them self a Christian then they are foolish.

Wow, you are sooooooo naive!