A Response to Paul Baird

[ApologiaPhoenix]

A response to Paul Baird:

The link can be found [url=http://deeperwaters.wordpress.com/2011/03/30/a-response-to-paul-baird/]here[url]

The text is as follows:

Welcome back everyone to Deeper Waters where we are diving into the ocean of truth. The time has come for me to address the question that I said earlier that belongs to Paul Baird. Thus far, I have found Baird to be an atheist highly capable of dialogue and when a serious question like the one he has rises up, I wish to deal with it.

Basically, the question concerns the justice of God. Is it the case that Hitler could have prayed a prayer before he died and repented and wound up in Heaven while at the same time a Jew who had simply rejected Christ all his life and died in the gas camps would go to Hell?

How is that just?

It's a good question and an understandable one, so let's put into play some parameters for our discussion.

First, biblically, anyone who commits any sin whatsoever knowingly and unknowingly justifiably deserves Hell. Note that I am not saying that Hell is deserved to the same degree. I do believe there are degrees of sins just as there are degrees of acts of grace.

Second, there is no action that one can do that could merit eternal favor with God on one's own. One has to come to God on God's terms. You cannot do a good deed in order to cancel out a bad deed.

Third, apart from the saving work of Jesus on the cross, no one past, present, or future from that event would have any chance of salvation.

Is God's system fair? Well let's suppose that instead he had a system that was arbitrary clearly. In order to merit eternal life, at the end of your game, you have to have 1,000 points. Bad actions cost points and good ones gain them. Why 1000? Just because. Why how many points each action has? THhat's just because also. You lose, say, 700 for murder and gain 2 for helping a little old lady across the street. You'd on the other hand gain 700 if you threw yourself on a live grenade to save innocents.

Is such a system fair? Hardly. It's arbitrary and leaves the person in chaos wondering if they are or are not going to make it. What do we need? We need to get rid of the points system altogether. What if we had more of an all-or-nothing system related to good deeds as well?

Say, what if we had a system that meant one was on the path they needed to be on following as best they could and not rejecting the true path?

I believe this is a closer description. For those outside the body of Christ, I believe it's best to say that frankly, we don't know. We do know however that the judge of all the Earth will do right. No one will be able to say on the last day "It wasn't fair."

Someone like Hitler also will have a harder time repenting. The further you move from the light, the less likely you are to return to it. For the seeker, the closer you get to the light, the more likely you are to turn to it.

Now this has been an interesting diversion but keep in mind, it is a diversion. The truth of Christianity does not hinge on this. If Christ is not raised, then this is all just speculation that will never matter. Now if Christ has been raised, then this is important thinking on a topic that raises much controversy but is secondary The real question is "Did Jesus rise." One should not reject God over a secondary question.

So I would put the question in my opponent's course. What have you done to answer the question of "Did Jesus Rise?"

[matteo67]

How do you come to the conclusion that Hitler would have a more difficult time repenting? Do we know the sins of the criminal who repented while being crucified with Jesus? No. Why should we care? Anyone who repents is worthy of being saved. Is that not what the Bible says? I do agree that ultimately it is outside of our knowledge to know whether or not those outside the body of Christ are saved or not. Perhaps millions have lived without knowing Jesus. Even David didn't know Jesus, and God chose him. David died a sinner. So did Solomon and the rest of the Old Testament figures. Should we presume they are all in hell? In a study group at our church last night, we talked about salvation. Of course, the issue of the afterlife came up. I believe that many Christians have grave misconceptions of both heaven and hell, which have been shaped by western european culture for the last two thousand years. I recall being in a yahoo group for screenwriters who were interested in religious themes. One member was focused on Dante's The Divine Comedy. Many more of the members actually believed that Dante's poem is biblical truth of how heaven and hell actually are. Despite what the Bible says about the after life, the truth is that none of know, nor can we begin to really imagine what either place will be like. At the study group last night I had to make the observation that despite what the Bible says in the Book of Revelation, that basically the story "ends" how can anyone really say they trust God and take that to heart. Are we saying that it all "ends" that God the Eternal Father has nothing more to say about anyone whether they be in heaven and hell? I think of the meaning of fire used by Peter, Paul, and John, which implies God's wrath. However, given that Paul points out that we are all like gold being refined, and ultimately we are nothing but clay to be molded into shape by God, might not fire be God's intention of refining all of us, believers and nonbelievers alike? Anyone bothering to read this might think I am threatening some doctrine. But, please, don't get so upset, if you are. The bottom line, for me, is that none of us can or should presume what God think or does. His revelation to humanity through the Bible is not all that He has to say. That's pretty sad if it is. Then that means that God is pretty small. Asking whether not God's way is just or not is not the right question. It makes you into someone self-righteous, the way the Pharisees, Cain, or the Prodigal Son's brother, even the Twelve Disciples were. That is not saying they are so bad, but that there is the tendency for anyone with the best of intentions to fall into that trap. That's not what Jesus expects from us. We need to get away from that Old Testament slave mentality way of looking at the world. Sure, there needs to be laws and order. There needs to be punishment for those who commit crimes. But we can't base our concept of what is or isn't just and expect God to comply with it. His ways are not our ways. He is definitely revealing Himself to us but what He reveals is NOT all there is to Him.

The Christ is Risen. No doubt about that. There is no "if". And, the thing is, when we all get to be in the contact presence of God, none of us will be asking these questions. If you see Hitler, a resurrected "person" who was known as Adolph Hitler in heaven, you are not going to turn to God and ask Him why "this guy's" here. You will have no memory of what happened on the old earth - as the Bible says. The question, with no disrespect, is irrelevant. If it is relevant, then all it does it point to possible weaknesses in our own faith.

[ApologiaPhoenix]

How do you come to the conclusion that Hitler would have a more difficult time repenting?

Based on a lifetime of murdering Jews and others. The more time you spend devoting yourself to evil, the harder it is to get out.

Do we know the sins of the criminal who repented while being crucified with Jesus?

Well they were called thieves....

No. Why should we care? Anyone who repents is worthy of being saved. Is that not what the Bible says?

I don't see where this was denied.

I do agree that ultimately it is outside of our knowledge to know whether or not those outside the body of Christ are saved or not. Perhaps millions have lived without knowing Jesus. Even David didn't know Jesus, and God chose him. David died a sinner. So did Solomon and the rest of the Old Testament figures. Should we presume they are all in hell?

No. Old Testament figures die looking forward to the cross. They die trusting in the promises YHWH already made.

In a study group at our church last night, we talked about salvation. Of course, the issue of the afterlife came up. I believe that many Christians have grave misconceptions of both heaven and hell, which have been shaped by western european culture for the last two thousand years. I recall being in a yahoo group for screenwriters who were interested in religious themes. One member was focused on Dante's The Divine Comedy. Many more of the members actually believed that Dante's poem is biblical truth of how heaven and hell actually are.

Correct. The Comedy is not to be taken literally and Dante would not have wanted that.

Despite what the Bible says about the after life, the truth is that none of know, nor can we begin to really imagine what either place will be like.

We can know some things but not everything. I know Heaven is a place of glory and Hell one of shame.

At the study group last night I had to make the observation that despite what the Bible says in the Book of Revelation, that basically the story "ends" how can anyone really say they trust God and take that to heart. Are we saying that it all "ends" that God the Eternal Father has nothing more to say about anyone whether they be in heaven and hell?

I doubt anyone is arguing that. Heaven is not the end but the beginning. I do believe those in Hell will stay there.

I think of the meaning of fire used by Peter, Paul, and John, which implies God's wrath.

Correct.

However, given that Paul points out that we are all like gold being refined, and ultimately we are nothing but clay to be molded into shape by God, might not fire be God's intention of refining all of us, believers and nonbelievers alike?

I take it that the love of God is like wrath to an unbeliever and is a blessing to the believer. The same sun that melts wax hardens clay.

Anyone bothering to read this might think I am threatening some doctrine. But, please, don't get so upset, if you are. The bottom line, for me, is that none of us can or should presume what God think or does.

Unless he gives us his thoughts on the matter in Scripture.

His revelation to humanity through the Bible is not all that He has to say. That's pretty sad if it is. Then that means that God is pretty small.

Again, I know of no one arguing that...

Asking whether not God's way is just or not is not the right question.

It also makes you a Psalmist. Note that I'm saying this for an atheist and I don't go to the atheist as a presuppositionalist.

It makes you into someone self-righteous, the way the Pharisees, Cain, or the Prodigal Son's brother, even the Twelve Disciples were.

And it can make you a Psalmist. It's not the question but the attitude behind it.

That is not saying they are so bad, but that there is the tendency for anyone with the best of intentions to fall into that trap. That's not what Jesus expects from us. We need to get away from that Old Testament slave mentality way of looking at the world.

Old Testament Slave Mentality?

Sure, there needs to be laws and order. There needs to be punishment for those who commit crimes. But we can't base our concept of what is or isn't just and expect God to comply with it.

Actually, it's the reverse. Traditionally, our laws are rooted in Natural Law.

His ways are not our ways. He is definitely revealing Himself to us but what He reveals is NOT all there is to Him.

I know where the Bible says this. Can you tell me where it says this and what it means?

The Christ is Risen. No doubt about that. There is no "if".

Correct that He is Risen. However, when presenting a case to an atheist, I don't go from what I believe but from where he is.

And, the thing is, when we all get to be in the contact presence of God, none of us will be asking these questions. If you see Hitler, a resurrected "person" who was known as Adolph Hitler in heaven, you are not going to turn to God and ask Him why "this guy's" here.

No. We know how everyone is there.

[QUOTE] You will have no memory of what happened on the old earth - as the Bible says. [QUOTE]

Verse?

The question, with no disrespect, is irrelevant. If it is relevant, then all it does it point to possible weaknesses in our own faith.

I consider objections to the faith relevant in that they help us refine our own knowledge.

[matteo67]

Your responses to my post:

Based on a lifetime of murdering Jews and others. The more time you spend devoting yourself to evil, the harder it is to get out.

Where in scripture does it say there's some gauge to measure how worthy someone is? We are all sinners and not worthy of salvation from us being human.

That's YOUR opinion, not God's

Do we know the sins of the criminal who repented while being crucified with Jesus?

Well they were called thieves....

Right. So none of his other sins mattered?

No. Why should we care? Anyone who repents is worthy of being saved. Is that not what the Bible says?

I don't see where this was denied.

Well then I guess you think that Jesus would deny someone if they came to Him with all sincerity and truly repent. Your opinion makes God to really be capricious, which HE IS NOT.

I do agree that ultimately it is outside of our knowledge to know whether or not those outside the body of Christ are saved or not. Perhaps millions have lived without knowing Jesus. Even David didn't know Jesus, and God chose him. David died a sinner. So did Solomon and the rest of the Old Testament figures. Should we presume they are all in hell?

]No. Old Testament figures die looking forward to the cross. They die trusting in the promises YHWH already made.

That implies that you think you don't need Jesus for salvation. They acted in accordance to the Law of Moses (at least post-Exodus characters), which Paul deemed unnecessary to be saved. What you DO doesn't matter. Knowing Jesus is what matters.

In a study group at our church last night, we talked about salvation. Of course, the issue of the afterlife came up. I believe that many Christians have grave misconceptions of both heaven and hell, which have been shaped by western european culture for the last two thousand years. I recall being in a yahoo group for screenwriters who were interested in religious themes. One member was focused on Dante's The Divine Comedy. Many more of the members actually believed that Dante's poem is biblical truth of how heaven and hell actually are.

Correct. The Comedy is not to be taken literally and Dante would not have wanted that.

Despite what the Bible says about the after life, the truth is that none of know, nor can we begin to really imagine what either place will be like.

We can know some things but not everything. I know Heaven is a place of glory and Hell one of shame.

I agree.

At the study group last night I had to make the observation that despite what the Bible says in the Book of Revelation, that basically the story "ends" how can anyone really say they trust God and take that to heart. Are we saying that it all "ends" that God the Eternal Father has nothing more to say about anyone whether they be in heaven and hell?

I doubt anyone is arguing that. Heaven is not the end but the beginning. I do believe those in Hell will stay there.

I hear MANY christian ministries preach that.

I think of the meaning of fire used by Peter, Paul, and John, which implies God's wrath.

Correct.

However, given that Paul points out that we are all like gold being refined, and ultimately we are nothing but clay to be molded into shape by God, might not fire be God's intention of refining all of us, believers and nonbelievers alike?

I take it that the love of God is like wrath to an unbeliever and is a blessing to the believer. The same sun that melts wax hardens clay.

I agree.

Anyone bothering to read this might think I am threatening some doctrine. But, please, don't get so upset, if you are. The bottom line, for me, is that none of us can or should presume what God think or does.

Unless he gives us his thoughts on the matter in Scripture.

True, but God does show that He reveals more and more through history. So, at the New Beginning, we can only presume that He will reveal more.

His revelation to humanity through the Bible is not all that He has to say. That's pretty sad if it is. Then that means that God is pretty small.

Again, I know of no one arguing that...

It seems to be heavily implied by ministries I hear, not follow, thank goodness.

Asking whether not God's way is just or not is not the right question.

It also makes you a Psalmist. Note that I'm saying this for an atheist and I don't go to the atheist as a presuppositionalist.

Sure, but I'm not an atheist.

It makes you into someone self-righteous, the way the Pharisees, Cain, or the Prodigal Son's brother, even the Twelve Disciples were.

And it can make you a Psalmist. It's not the question but the attitude behind it.

True.

That is not saying they are so bad, but that there is the tendency for anyone with the best of intentions to fall into that trap. That's not what Jesus expects from us. We need to get away from that Old Testament slave mentality way of looking at the world.

Old Testament Slave Mentality?


Sure, there needs to be laws and order. There needs to be punishment for those who commit crimes. But we can't base our concept of what is or isn't just and expect God to comply with it.

Actually, it's the reverse. Traditionally, our laws are rooted in Natural Law.

I should have been more clear. I have little interest in natural law. I am interested in God's laws.

His ways are not our ways. He is definitely revealing Himself to us but what He reveals is NOT all there is to Him.

I know where the Bible says this. Can you tell me where it says this and what it means?

The Christ is Risen. No doubt about that. There is no "if".

Correct that He is Risen. However, when presenting a case to an atheist, I don't go from what I believe but from where he is.

When I talk to people who are atheists I am more interested in why they express so much anger toward God which is the basis of their "belief" that He does not exist. Most I meet seem to be pissed off at Him and want to deny that He exists. Others have legitimate issues with the lies which "religion" has perpetuated and continue to perpetuate. Now, I can't change the past. I cannot have too much issue with the faith of people who are dead. However I feel that dead or not they are my brothers. We are our brother's keeper as Cain tried to deny. So, I have to accept some responsibility for what they perpetuate. What I can do is NOT repeat their mistakes.

And, the thing is, when we all get to be in the contact presence of God, none of us will be asking these questions. If you see Hitler, a resurrected "person" who was known as Adolph Hitler in heaven, you are not going to turn to God and ask Him why "this guy's" here.

No. We know how everyone is there.

[QUOTE] You will have no memory of what happened on the old earth - as the Bible says. [QUOTE]

Verse?

2 Corinithians 5:17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come!

Revelation 7:17 For the Lamb at the center of the throne will be their shepherd; he will lead them to springs of living water. And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes."

Philippians 3:20-21 For our citizenship is in heaven, from which we also eagerly wait for the Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, who will transform our lowly [physical, material] body that it may be conformed to His glorious body.

Revelation 21:1 Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth has passed away, and there was no longer any sea.

21:4 He will wipe away every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying in pain, for the old order of things has passed away.

21:6-7 ...to him who is thirsty I will give drink without cost...He who overcomes will inherit all this...

The question, with no disrespect, is irrelevant. If it is relevant, then all it does it point to possible weaknesses in our own faith.

I consider objections to the faith relevant in that they help us refine our own knowledge.

[ApologiaPhoenix]

Where in scripture does it say there's some gauge to measure how worthy someone is? We are all sinners and not worthy of salvation from us being human.

Who said anything about worthiness?

That's YOUR opinion, not God's

Actually, all you've said is it's my opinion. You haven't shown my belief is incorrect and thus that God disagrees.

Right. So none of his other sins mattered?

Who said they didn't? You just said we have no idea. I said they were thieves. That's some idea.

Well then I guess you think that Jesus would deny someone if they came to Him with all sincerity and truly repent. Your opinion makes God to really be capricious, which HE IS NOT.

No. That's not my stance. Do you straw man like this often?

That implies that you think you don't need Jesus for salvation. They acted in accordance to the Law of Moses (at least post-Exodus characters), which Paul deemed unnecessary to be saved. What you DO doesn't matter. Knowing Jesus is what matters.

Correct. The name of Jesus in the phonetic sense is not needed for salvation. It's the authority of Jesus that is needed and those in the Old Testament were saved based on the future work of Christ.

I hear MANY christian ministries preach that.

Irrelevant. I'm not under obligation to defend a belief I don't hold.

True, but God does show that He reveals more and more through history. So, at the New Beginning, we can only presume that He will reveal more.

Again, has anyone denied this?

It seems to be heavily implied by ministries I hear, not follow, thank goodness.

Again, that is not my stance.

Sure, but I'm not an atheist.

Did I write this post to you? It's in response to a question on the Unbelievable broadcast.

I should have been more clear. I have little interest in natural law. I am interested in God's laws.

Okay. Then your position is very unclear. You want to move away from an Old Testament Slave Mentality whatever that is and then you reject Natural Law. Do you know what that is?

When I talk to people who are atheists I am more interested in why they express so much anger toward God which is the basis of their "belief" that He does not exist. Most I meet seem to be pissed off at Him and want to deny that He exists. Others have legitimate issues with the lies which "religion" has perpetuated and continue to perpetuate. Now, I can't change the past. I cannot have too much issue with the faith of people who are dead. However I feel that dead or not they are my brothers. We are our brother's keeper as Cain tried to deny. So, I have to accept some responsibility for what they perpetuate. What I can do is NOT repeat their mistakes.

Okay. That's your method. Go with it and read Paul Vitz.



[QUOTE] 2 Corinithians 5:17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come!

Revelation 7:17 For the Lamb at the center of the throne will be their shepherd; he will lead them to springs of living water. And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes."

Philippians 3:20-21 For our citizenship is in heaven, from which we also eagerly wait for the Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, who will transform our lowly [physical, material] body that it may be conformed to His glorious body.

Revelation 21:1 Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth has passed away, and there was no longer any sea.

21:4 He will wipe away every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying in pain, for the old order of things has passed away.

21:6-7 ...to him who is thirsty I will give drink without cost...He who overcomes will inherit all this...[/QUOTE

And which verse said that? None.

Also, do learn the quote feature. It'll make things much easier.