Old testament saints

[4 Zion]

Heres a little topic for discussion regarding salvation. Those that lived prior to Messiahs incarnation, how are they saved? If by faith (in God) how does it relate to those (Jews) who have not come to knowledge of Him in a personal way yet.But are faithfully awaiting the appearance of their Messiah?

[Scrawly]

Hi 4Zion,

Jesus' substitutionary sacrifice was once for all, covering the sins of His people for all time. And the following verse gives us an indication of the trans-historical nature of His sacrifice:

"... to the Lamb that was slain from the creation of the world." Revelation 13:8
(also see John 6:39; Hebrews 13:20)
As the verse indicates, there is a clear element of timelessness in Christ's death, Therefore, the forgiveness purchased by Christ for His people at his death was already efficacious to the saints which existed prior to his coming. Both Moses and Elijah also considered his death to be of great personal importance as this was their main topic of conversation when they visited him at the transfiguration:

"And behold, two men were talking with Him; and they were Moses and Elijah, who, appearing in glory, were speaking of His departure which He was about to accomplish at Jerusalem." Luke 9:30, 31
Again in the New Testament Paul indicates that Abraham had the gospel preached to him:

"The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, "[Gen 12:3] ALL THE NATIONS WILL BE BLESSED IN YOU." Galatians 3:8 (emphasis mine)
Although much of the gospel perhaps remained a mystery to the Jews, they saw it from afar (Heb 11) and evidently received enough for the Holy Spirit to apply toward their regeneration, apart from works of the Law. Even Jesus in the Gospel of John says "Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad." John 8:56

Aparently the Spiritual Jews of the first century deeply understood the implications and necessity of a Messiah for when Jesus is presented in the temple there was a man called Simeon, who was righteous and devout. He was waiting for the consolation of Israel so that when he saw Jesus he took him in his arms and praised God, saying:

"Sovereign Lord, as you have promised, you now dismiss your servant in peace. For my eyes have seen your salvation, which you have prepared in the sight of all people, a light for revelation to the Gentiles and for glory to your people Israel."(Luke 2:29-32)
He then said: "This child is destined to cause the falling and rising of many in Israel, and to be a sign that will be spoken against, so that the thoughts of many hearts will be revealed. And a sword will pierce your own soul too." With these things in mind we begin to view redemptive history like the blossoming of a flower, an organic unfolding - from the bud slowly opening to full blossom. Truth is always truth but their is an flowering of redemption from infancy to maturity as it is revealed in history. Instead of viewing the Old Testament as a completely seperate dispensation we now see that it was a time in revelation when we were but children having the law to discipline us but when the fulness of time came the child no longer needs guardians:

"But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor....he [a child] is under guardians and managers until the date set by the father. So also we, while we were children, were held in bondage under the elemental things of the world. But when the fullness of the time came, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the Law, so that He might redeem those who were under the Law, that we might receive the adoption as sons."
(Gal 3:25; 4:3-5)

It was hazy and becomes more clear. Look as the promise to Abraham - the Gentiles are promised to be a part of his seed one day. Is says, "ALL THE NATIONS WILL BE BLESSED IN YOU" And in Galatians we see the fulfillment of this:

"...in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we would receive the promise of the Spirit through faith."Gal 3:14

"And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's descendants, heirs according to promise." Gal 3:29

This means that the church did not start at Pentecost, but rather consists of the whole number of the elect, which were purchased for God with Christ's blood from [Dan 3:4; 5:19; Rev 7:9; 10:11; 11:9; 13:7; 14:6; 17:15] every tribe and tongue and people and nation. This includes all true believers for all time, both believers in the New Testament age and believers in the Old Testament age as well. Romans 11 describes our (N.T. Saints) relationship with Israel as organic, likening it to tree branches being grafted in but having the same root. We all sprung from the same spiritual seed, Christ being the root, and the eternal covenant made with the Father (John 6:37,39, 44, 63-65; 17:9) carried out in history through Abraham and fulfilled in Christ. The progressive unfolding nature of the covenants with Noah, Abraham, Moses, and David laid the covenantal groundwork for the culmination of God's redemptive work in His new covenant in Christ. The nation of Israel shares a primary role in God's self-revelation in redemptive history. It is the revelation unfolding through the Old Testament that provides the crucial framework for understanding God's complete self-revelation through Jesus Christ.

Pentecost, was the eschatological hope of the Jews fulfilled where the Spirit is poured out on both Jew and Gentile. The dividing wall and barrier of hostility was broken down ... but God did not have a different plan or way of saving people in Old and New Testaments. It has always been by grace alone than no man may boast. There has always been the concept of a penal substitution and redemption for sinners. With all the confusion introduced by poor exegesis in recent times we merely need to simply go back to the Scriptures an understand that their true nature is one of organic unity. It was not as if a holy God lowered His standard for the people of the Old Testament. One sin would forever damn them, unless, like us, God has mercy on them and provides redemption for them. There was no time when man could attain heaven by his own efforts, except, of course, for the Lord Jesus Christ Himself who alone fulfilled the covenant from our side. He sinlessly obeyed God's holy Law and God was well pleased with Him. God looks at Him and counts us free. He is our righteousness as God's elect are attributed Christ's satisfaction by faith.Where Adam failed to keep God's covenant, Jesus succeeded. All glory to God alone for our redemption for which we could not or would not lift a finger for on our own. Our only hope is in the Messiah who crushed the head of the serpent, which was promised after the fall.

To conclude, Old Testament saints were clearly saved the same way the New Testament saints were, by grace alone, through faith alone, in to person and work of Christ alone, as revealed in the Scriptures alone, to the glory of God alone. .

For what does the Scripture say? "And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness." Now to the one who works, his wage is not reckoned as a favor, but as what is due. But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness, just as David also speaks of the blessing upon the man to whom God reckons righteousness apart from works: "Blessed are those whose lawless deeds have been forgiven, and whose sins have been covered. "Blessed is the man whose sin the Lord will not take into account" (Rom. 4:3-8).

[Tanakh Keeper]

This is a Christian topic. It has no relevance to Judaism.

[Scrawly]

This is a Christian topic. It has no relevance to Judaism.

Hey TK, just out of curiosity, what are your thoughts on Dr. Michael Brown?

[Tanakh Keeper]

Why? What relevance?

[Scrawly]

Curiosity mainly - we do not need to hijack this thread, but I am just wondering if you have read his material, watched his debates etc.?

[Tanakh Keeper]

I have heard of him. I watched one debate of his. I wasn't impressed.

[Scrawly]

Thank-you, that's very interesting, do you remember which debate though?

[Tanakh Keeper]

A rabbi, don't remember his name.

[sylvius]

A rabbi, don't remember his name.

Rabbi Boteach

[Scrawly]

A rabbi, don't remember his name.

Well, if you have time please look it up. If it was indeed Rabbi Shmuley Boteach, I fail to see how you would be more impressed with him than Dr. Brown.