Miss USA: Health Care Is a Privilege, Not a Right...

[JimL]

But Jim, that is really not the world we live in. Wealth and security is one of the best ways to protect you and yours. Whether you treat others well or not.

Of course its the world we live in, we live in a world where we are shaped by our culture to respect the lives of others. Then we have laws and punishment for those who violate those morals. That makes you and your wealth much more secure than it would otherwise be without such inculcated values and laws.

No it is not Jim, it is an objective fact.

Being a fact, doesn't negate the fact that its a false equivalency. Obviously some people get away with what we as a society consider to be immoral and illegal.

Jim where is the written? Who says that is the purpose of moral codes? How is that any more than you opinion?

Well I said so. But why do you need someone to say it in order to understand it? Moral upbringing, and societal laws, keep the otherwise amoral human being in line. We are not born moral you know.

[seer]

Of course its the world we live in, we live in a world where we are shaped by our culture to respect the lives of others. Then we have laws and punishment for those who violate those morals. That makes you and your wealth much more secure than it would otherwise be without such inculcated values and laws.

Jim, that however does not make it immoral for a powerful elite for instance to control the minority for their personal gain. Is there a risk - sure, but there is a risk driving to work in the morning.

Being a fact, doesn't negate the fact that its a false equivalency. Obviously some people get away with what we as a society consider to be immoral and illegal.

But that only works if the powerful elite is not in control. When you get to countries like Cuba, China, North Korea, Venezuela, and most African and Muslims nations it is the elite that rule and decide what is moral and illegal.

Well I said so. But why do you need someone to say it in order to understand it? Moral upbringing, and societal laws, keep the otherwise amoral human being in line. We are not born moral you know.

Jim you argued that your moral view was more than opinion - it is not.

[JimL]

Jim, that however does not make it immoral for a powerful elite for instance to control the minority for their personal gain. Is there a risk - sure, but there is a risk driving to work in the morning.

Yeah, actually it does make it immoral. We find and establish morals because we understand them to serve the best interests of society as a whole, so that each mans survival and wealth is more secure, so to violate them is exactly what is meant by acting immorally. Thats basically common sense. You seem to think that morals serve no purpose, that they are just arbitrary rules come down from above. When you understand that morals serve a practical purpose, then you'll understand that their purpose is relative to human beings and human society and thus can not be arbitrary rules from above.

But that only works if the powerful elite is not in control. When you get to countries like Cuba, China, North Korea, Venezuela, and most African and Muslims nations it is the elite that rule and decide what is moral and illegal.

Yep, thats what democracy is all about. But it doesn't really matter what dictators decide is moral or illegal, it isn't what is decided, it isn't opinion, it isn't what some sociopathic autocrat decides, morality is actually that which is in the best interests of human beings and human society regardless. Of course if you put into power a sociopathic autocrat like Putin, or Trump, then you've given them the opportunity to undermine that morality for nefarious purposes of their own.

Jim you argued that your moral view was more than opinion - it is not.

No, I'm sure I didn't argue that, because my moral view, same as is yours and everybody elses moral view, is immaterial. All that matters is the moral itself, whether it is in the best interests of human society, and thus ultimately in the best interests of individuals within that society, then that is all that matters. Thus the moral against murder.

[Charles]

I do not share your opinion completely, JimL, but that sure is a very good answer.

[seer]

Yeah, actually it does make it immoral. We find and establish morals because we understand them to serve the best interests of society as a whole.

We have to park here Jim because this is the crux of the argument. Who says that a moral system is established to serve the greater good? In most of human history ethical systems and law primarily served the powerful elite. As they still do in a good portion of the world. So I will ask again Jim, why is your opinion of what a legal or moral system should accomplish more correct or valid than that of the powerful elite?

[Leonhard]

Jim, that however does not make it immoral for a powerful elite for instance to control the minority for their personal gain. Is there a risk - sure, but there is a risk driving to work in the morning.

Is it your actual belief that its morally permissible for the rich to exploit the poor? Or is this merely a bating question to go down a rabbit hole of moral ontology with JimL?

[seer]

Is it your actual belief that its morally permissible for the rich to exploit the poor? Or is this merely a bating question to go down a rabbit hole of moral ontology with JimL?

No, I'm a Christian Leonhard, and I'm not bating anyone, I did not originally bring up the moral question. But yes I am discussing Jim's views based on his atheistic worldview.

[Leonhard]

No, I'm a Christian Leonhard, and I'm not bating anyone, I did not originally bring up the moral question. But yes I am discussing Jim's views based on his atheistic worldview.

The latter is fine, I was just surprised and wanted to make sure I understood you.

[seer]

The latter is fine, I was just surprised and wanted to make sure I understood you.

cool...

[JimL]

We have to park here Jim because this is the crux of the argument. Who says that a moral system is established to serve the greater good? In most of human history ethical systems and law primarily served the powerful elite. As they still do in a good portion of the world. So I will ask again Jim, why is your opinion of what a legal or moral system should accomplish more correct or valid than that of the powerful elite?

Well, let me ask you this seer, "what is the purpose of the morals you live by?" Do they serve any purpose relative to your present life and or to society? Or are they just the arbitrary rules of a dictator to be followed for no specific reason, serving no specific purpose relative to your present life or society?

[Sparko]

Well, let me ask you this seer, "what is the purpose of the morals you live by?" Do they serve any purpose relative to your present life and or to society? Or are they just the arbitrary rules of a dictator to be followed for no specific reason, serving no specific purpose relative to your present life or society?

They serve to make us better people. Choosing to do good instead of evil. derp.

[seer]

Well, let me ask you this seer, "what is the purpose of the morals you live by?" Do they serve any purpose relative to your present life and or to society? Or are they just the arbitrary rules of a dictator to be followed for no specific reason, serving no specific purpose relative to your present life or society?

Jim, that is not the point. I could offer my opinion, but it would be just that - opinion. Just as your view on morality is opinion. So my opinion is that morality serves the purpose of first, to conform us to the image of Christ, second, to live peaceably with our fellow man.

[JimL]

They serve to make us better people. Choosing to do good instead of evil. derp.

Thats a circular argument Sparko, better, good, moral are synonomous terms. The question is what effect, what purpose, if any, does being a better person, a moral person, serve in your own life and that of society as a whole?

[JimL]

Jim, that is not the point. I could offer my opinion, but it would be just that - opinion. Just as your view on morality is opinion. So my opinion is that morality serves the purpose of first, to conform us to the image of Christ, second, to live peaceably with our fellow man.

"Peaceably with your fellow man," well there you go, morals are relative to, and serve the purpose of, maintaining a peaceful society for both you and your nieghbors.

[Sparko]

Thats a circular argument Sparko, better, good, moral are synonomous terms.

Yes, you do good things to be a better person. derp.

The question is what effect, what purpose, if any, does being a better person, a moral person, serve in your own life and that of society as a whole?

Being a better person is it's own reward, both for yourself and those around you.