She is obviously a product of a selfish society.
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Originally posted by kiwimac View PostShe is obviously a product of a selfish society."I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
"Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
"[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein
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Originally posted by Starlight View PostMisread that as 'shellfish society'... which was slightly confusing to say the least.
Or don't you fall for the whole Alex Jones secret Shellfish Society conspiracy theory?Actually YOU put Trump in the White House. He wouldn't have gotten 1% of the vote if it wasn't for the widespread spiritual and cultural devastation caused by progressive policies. There's no "this country" left with your immigration policies, your "allies" are worthless and even more suicidal than you are and democracy is a sick joke that I hope nobody ever thinks about repeating when the current order collapses. - Darth_Executor striking a conciliatory note in Civics 101
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Originally posted by Meh Gerbil View PostYou stated that moral behavior is people cooperating with one another.
The behavior serves a purpose (survival) which would be a human purpose (bears don't consider human survival to be moral) and quite subjective.
So yes, your subjective morality does have a purpose or design behind it.
JimL was writing about an objective morality but I think he's stuck with either subjective morality or none whatsoever.
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Originally posted by JimL View PostWhatever moral system is in the best interests of human society, which is ultimately in the best interests of human beings, is objective, not subjective, and yes, it does have a purpose behind it, our collective best interests.
For example, bears might consider our extinction to be in their best interest.
I thought you were maintaining that the universe provided an objective moral code but I may have misunderstood you.Actually YOU put Trump in the White House. He wouldn't have gotten 1% of the vote if it wasn't for the widespread spiritual and cultural devastation caused by progressive policies. There's no "this country" left with your immigration policies, your "allies" are worthless and even more suicidal than you are and democracy is a sick joke that I hope nobody ever thinks about repeating when the current order collapses. - Darth_Executor striking a conciliatory note in Civics 101
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Originally posted by Meh Gerbil View PostYes, the purpose is our collective best interests but wouldn't that be subjective?
For example, bears might consider our extinction to be in their best interest.
I thought you were maintaining that the universe provided an objective moral code but I may have misunderstood you.
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Originally posted by JimL View PostThe purpose of morality may be subjective, but the means of its achievment, the best moral system itself, is not. For instance, we all want to survive, to be happy in life, etc etc., and that desire is subjective, but the best moral system in which to achieve human desires, or goals, or our purpose, can't itself be subjective.
Practically speaking yes, humanity is part of the universe, we are part of, and therefore subject to, the world we live in, thus what is in our best interests with respect to our behavior is subject to the conditions we find ourselves in, ergo, what is best with respect to morality, is objective.
I'd claim that if desire is subjective then anything based on those desires would have to be subjective.
I think you're assuming everyone wants the same thing here.Actually YOU put Trump in the White House. He wouldn't have gotten 1% of the vote if it wasn't for the widespread spiritual and cultural devastation caused by progressive policies. There's no "this country" left with your immigration policies, your "allies" are worthless and even more suicidal than you are and democracy is a sick joke that I hope nobody ever thinks about repeating when the current order collapses. - Darth_Executor striking a conciliatory note in Civics 101
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Originally posted by Meh Gerbil View PostI appreciate the clarifications.
I'd claim that if desire is subjective then anything based on those desires would have to be subjective.
I think you're assuming everyone wants the same thing here.
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Originally posted by JimL View PostPractically speaking, fundamentally, we do all want the same thing. Thats why the religious all want to go to heaven, they want to continue to live and to joy in that life eternal.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by Starlight View PostWell the Declaration of Independence's view that the government had obligations to ensure and enable "Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness" would seem to imply healthcare.
The Universal Declaration of Human Rights (1948) specifically explicitly states that healthcare is a right. Your government signed that. Is your government an untrustworthy liar who doesn't keep the agreements it signs?Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.
Beige Federalist.
Nationalist Christian.
"Everybody is somebody's heretic."
Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.
Proud member of the this space left blank community.
Would-be Grand Vizier of the Padishah Maxi-Super-Ultra-Hyper-Mega-MAGA King Trumpius Rex.
Justice for Ashli Babbitt!
Justice for Matthew Perna!
Arrest Ray Epps and his Fed bosses!
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Originally posted by seer View PostJim the objective fact that we all (mostly) want to live does not tell us how we should morally treat our fellow man. If taking advantage of our fellow man increases ones wealth, security and longevity then that would fulfill that desire to live.
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Originally posted by JimL View PostYes it does, because unless you are willing to treat others the way you want others to treat you, then your advantage will always be at risk and securing and maintaining your wealth, security and longevity is greatly diminished. Thus the adage, "do unto others............" One thing you seem to keep forgetting is that moral systems and moral codes are not about individuals per se, they are about human society.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by seer View PostJim, my wealth and security could still be threatened whether I treated my fellow man well or not.
Many a cruel man has lived to a ripe old age, and many a good man have been cut down before their time.
You are not making sense. And you keep forgetting that it is only your opinion that moral codes should serve the greater good. They could just as well serve the greedy majority or a powerful minority.
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Originally posted by JimL View PostC'mon seer, you know thats a false equivalency, you know that it is much less likely that your wealth and security is at risk than it would be if you lived in a world wherein people were not raised and shaped by the moral codes of their society.
Again, false equivalency.
No, thats not just my opinion seer, that is their purpose, to serve the greater good of all, i.e. of society.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by JimL View PostYes it does, because unless you are willing to treat others the way you want others to treat you, then your advantage will always be at risk and securing and maintaining your wealth, security and longevity is greatly diminished. Thus the adage, "do unto others............" One thing you seem to keep forgetting is that moral systems and moral codes are not about individuals per se, they are about human society.
So morals are always about individuals.
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