Isaiah 40:13-14

[Bill the Cat]

Yeah, I must admit, ya got me there JAYMZ, my statement is kinda similar to Jesus' first “christian cults” “For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ…” (KJV 2 Peter 1:16)



Yeah, I must admit, ya got me again JAYMZ, kinda like the "religious system" Jesus established in the first “christian cults…”And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues. (1 Cor 12:28)



What a coincidence…ME TOO!!! And I MUST add, He is the cornerstone and sits at the head of my Church just like He did at the first “christian cults” church… “And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; (Eph 2:20)



I don’t because I know this statement to be true…: “Wherefore, I the Lord, knowing the calamity which should come upon the inhabitants of the earth, called upon my servant Joseph Smith, Jun., and spake unto him from heaven, and gave him commandments; (D&C Section 1:17)



C’mon JAYMZ, you know I’m not the judge. If I had to guess, I don’t suppose not any more than the Sanhedrin, the Scribes and Pharisees were/are. They denied and didn’t recognize His Apostles and His Church with His Apostles either and went on the attack. What is your judgment of them?



Geeeees JAYMZ, you’re right again, just like in the original “christian cults” where there was a whole lot of accepting Peter, Paul, James, John, Matthew, etc, as a servant of the Lord before converts were baptized and were made into Jesus’ disciples and members of His "christian cults," I too had to accept the Lord at His word when He said… “Wherefore, I the Lord, knowing the calamity which should come upon the inhabitants of the earth, called upon my servant Joseph Smith, Jun., and spake unto him from heaven, and gave him commandments; (D&C Section 1:17)

Yep JAYMZ, it’s just as one of the Apostles of Jesus first “christian cults” said… “For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.(1 Thes 2:13)

Yeah JAYMZ, compare me to Jesus’ original “christian cults” all you want ‘cause it’s true and proves the restoration of His Church in these latter days as prophesied in the OT.

JAYMZ, allow me to reiterate… “For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ…” (KJV 2 Peter 1:16)

Elephant hurling is a debate tactic in which a debater will refer to a large body of evidence which supposedly supports the debater's arguments, but without demonstrating that all the evidence does indeed support the argument.

[LDSTrue]

- - - Please don't cry CP,

- - - I try to only use "aka" when applicable...

- - - LDS,T aka LDSTrue!

[Cow Poke]

- - - Please don't cry CP,

- - - I try to only use "aka" when applicable...

- - - LDS,T aka LDSTrue!

That's actually pretty clever!

[JAYMZ]

JAYMZ, allow me to reiterate… “For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ…” (KJV 2 Peter 1:16)

First LDSTrue, Peter is talking about the life, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. Not the claims of Joseph Smith.

Another hallmark - twisting scripture and forcing your theology and views on scripture.


Second, any " moonie " can make the very same remarks that you made in response my post. They would just replace Joseph Smith with Sun Myung Moon.

NO WHERE in the Gospel that Peter, Paul, John, etc preached do they include believing in some future prophet called Joseph Smith.

Scripture Verse:

Hebrews 12:2 (American Standard Version)

2 looking unto Jesus the author and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising shame, and hath sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.

We don't look " unto " Jesus Christ + Joseph Smith.

[LDSTrue]

First LDSTrue, Peter is talking about the life, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. Not the claims of Joseph Smith.

Well JAYMZ, that is exactly what I was talking about when I posted “For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ…” (KJV 2 Peter 1:16)” and Joseph Smith spent a lot of time and effort speaking about that exact topic, in fact, it cost him his life.

It’s the “claims” of the Profit Isaiah we are talking about… “And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, (Isaiah 11:11). Both Joseph Smith and I are speaking about Jesus Christ and the SECOND TIME Jesus set His hand to recover the remnant of the people. It IS all about Jesus Christ AND the latter day fulfillment of OT prophesy.

Another hallmark - twisting scripture and forcing your theology and views on scripture.

Giving you positive indication that the Lord is “Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever."(Hebrews 13:8) should not be considered twisting and forcing scripture and it’s not “twisting scripture” to the discerning… “And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed:” (Daniel 2:44)

Second, any " moonie " can make the very same remarks that you made in response my post. They would just replace Joseph Smith with Sun Myung Moon.

Yeah sure, but the Holy Ghost would never supernaturally confirm anything about Sun Myung Moon as being true… “For our gospel came not unto you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Ghost, (1 Thes 1:5)

I’m sure there were “Sun Myung Moon” types in the days of the Apostles as well… “But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you,” (2 Peter 2:1), however, the Holy Ghost never once confirmed any of them as being true disciples or servants called by Jesus.

NO WHERE in the Gospel that Peter, Paul, John, etc preached do they include believing in some future prophet called Joseph Smith.

That statement is a non sequitur!

I doubt your Pope or the leader of your or church or congregation was mentioned by any one of the NT Apostles either. However, it’s like I’ve been saying all along, it was the Lord’s Prophets Daniel, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Malachi etc, that saw into our day and prophesied about Jesus setting His hand a second time to establish a kingdom to gather His people which shall never be destroyed thereafter that would eventually eclipse Moses leading more than a million of the children of Israel out of Egypt.

We don't look " unto " Jesus Christ + Joseph Smith.

What a coincidence, NEITHER DO I!

What makes you think I “look unto Jesus Christ + Joseph Smith”??? Jesus is my Lord and Savior, my Redeemer, my Advocate with the Father, with or without Prophets, Apostles or church leaders.

There are many who have passed on without an opportunity to know of and accept Jesus yet… “That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;” “And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.” (Phil 2:10-11) Sounds as if all will eventually receive an opportunity to here about and accept Jesus as their Lord.

The Lord called and spoke to Joseph Smith just as He called and spoke to the original Apostles and Paul’s example in particular. …: “Wherefore, I the Lord, knowing the calamity which should come upon the inhabitants of the earth, called upon my servant Joseph Smith, Jun., and spake unto him from heaven, and gave him commandments; (D&C Section 1:17)

Would you say the Corinthians or the Ephesians look “unto” to Jesus Christ + Paul?!

I concur with the opinion of Paul in the matter… “Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ. “Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?” (1 Cor 1:12-13)

I am thankful for Joseph Smith just as many, if not all the converts, must have looked to Peter, Paul, Matthew, John, etc, with respect and appreciation for their efforts in bringing Jesus’ saving gospel to them in their hour of need. There is ample reference in the NT they were loved by the disciples.

They all dedicated the balance of their lives to the performance of the Lords’ commandments and direction as given through the power of the Holy Ghost for the rest of their lives as well and should be respected and highly spoken of.

Of course I appreciate and respect Joseph Smith for his efforts but not as my Savior. Without Jesus calling Prophets and Apostles and putting them in place combined with their constant efforts as directed by the Holy Ghost it wouldn’t be hard to imagine the Lord’s gospel and church being lead astray by Satan.

Scripture Verse:

KJV 1 Corinthians 1:30-31

[30] “But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:

[31] That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.”

JAYMZ, I respect and appreciate Joseph Smith, however, I GLORY IN THE LORD!!! I am thankful beyond any words could express for His restoration of His church in these latter days and my testimony of the truthfulness thereof.

[Cow Poke]

Well JAYMZ, that is exactly what I was talking about when I posted “For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ…” (KJV 2 Peter 1:16)” and Joseph Smith spent a lot of time and effort speaking about that exact topic, in fact, it cost him his life.

You don't think it had anything to do with hacking off his own people by marrying their wives and destroying the printing press? Can you tie his death directly to preaching KJV scripture?

[JAYMZ]

Yeah sure, but the Holy Ghost would never supernaturally confirm anything about Sun Myung Moon as being true… “For our gospel came not unto you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Ghost, (1 Thes 1:5)

I’m sure there were “Sun Myung Moon” types in the days of the Apostles as well… “But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you,” (2 Peter 2:1), however, the Holy Ghost never once confirmed any of them as being true disciples or servants called by Jesus.

Tell that to a devout Unification church member -

Christ coming back?' I asked, as if talking to myself. In my mind, I heard the answer: 'Christ is here - Sun Myung Moon.'... It took me some time to come to the conclusion that it was all true, from beginning to end: Rev. Moon was the Messiah." (Tom Conneally, "Testimony of Spiritual Works - Moments of True Encounter", Today's World, April 1999, pp.22-23)

I bet if you could talk to Tom, he would tell you that the Holy Spirit has confirmed this to him.

y, God's word comes only through Father. If other people receive God's word, that word is that Reverend Moon is the Messiah. There is always a central person. If God gave His word to two or three people, they would fight and destroy God's providence. That is why God chooses only one person." (Rev. Ahn, Today's World, Jan. 1995, p.39)

Tell " rev " Ahn about the prophet Joseph Smith, and he'll tell you about the prophet Sun Myung Moon.


In the Christians Spirit-guided, scripture-guided mind, BOTH Moon and Smith have deviated from the faith " once delivered to the Saints. "

All you can do is compete. Its the LDS subjective experience vs the Unification members subjective experience.

[JAYMZ]

JAYMZ, I respect and appreciate Joseph Smith, however, I GLORY IN THE LORD!!! I am thankful beyond any words could express for His restoration of His church in these latter days and my testimony of the truthfulness thereof.

LDSTrue, would it be fair to say that you believe that believing in the Gospel of Jesus Christ goes hand-in-hand with believing in Gods one true Church.....the LDS ?

Would you say the if we really were guided by the Holy Spirit, that we would believe in Smith and his organization ?

Given the fact that we reject Smith as a prophet shows that we are not indwelt by the Holy Spirit ?

Would that be your HONEST opinion ?

[LDSTrue]

Originally posted by LDSTrue

JAYMZ, I respect and appreciate Joseph Smith, however, I GLORY IN THE LORD!!! I am thankful beyond any words could express for His restoration of His church in these latter days and my testimony of the truthfulness thereof.

LDSTrue, would it be fair to say that you believe that believing in the Gospel of Jesus Christ goes hand-in-hand with believing in Gods one true Church.....the LDS ?

There are millions if not billions who believe in the gospel as recorded in the NT who are not members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints.

Tell me JAYMZ, how many one true churches were on the earth at the time Jesus called His Apostles and sent them with His gospel and authority to baptize converts into His church! Was Paul setting up branches of Jesus’ one true church with the Corinthians and Ephesians or were there other true churches already established Paul was competing with.

Would you say the if we really were guided by the Holy Spirit, that we would believe in Smith and his organization ?

According to D&C Section 1 it is Jesus’ “organization” and not Joseph Smith’s. Read it for yourself!

Given the fact that we reject Smith as a prophet shows that we are not indwelt by the Holy Spirit ?

The Holy Ghost has touched many. However, according to the gospel in the NT one must have one with authority to bestow the gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands.

Scripture Verse:

KJV Acts 8: 17

[17] “Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.

Acts 19:6

[6] “And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them…”

Acts 8:20

[20] “But Peter said unto him, Thy money perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money.”

What do you mean by “indwelt by the Holy Spirit?” Do you mean you have the Holy Ghost as a constant guide and companion? Do you become “indwelt by the Holy Spirit” by merely reading and studying scripture? What do/did you do to become “indwelt by the Holy Spirit?”

Have you received the gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands by one with Jesus’ authority to bestow such a gift after baptism by one with Jesus’ authority to baptize (Keys) as indicated several times in scripture?

Would that be your HONEST opinion ?

My honest opinion is that Jesus, as prophesied in the OT, has set His hand a second time to gather His people and Has set up His kingdom on earth in these latter days as prophesied by the Lord’s Prophets Daniel, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Malachi, etc, that you and others are either ignoring, misunderstanding or confusing.

What did it look like when Jesus set his hand the first time to gather His people?!!!

He began the gathering with His gospel, His Apostles with His authority (Keys), His Church, His baptism, His laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost. Jesus used His Church organization as the vehicle to gather His people the FIRST TIME He set His hand.

Here is a huge clue…“Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.(Hebrews 13:8)

You should prayerfully and sincerely read D&C Section 1…That is my honest opinion.

[Bill the Cat]

There are millions if not billions who believe in the gospel as recorded in the NT who are not members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints.

Tell me JAYMZ, how many one true churches were on the earth at the time Jesus called His Apostles and sent them with His gospel and authority to baptize converts into His church! Was Paul setting up branches of Jesus’ one true church with the Corinthians and Ephesians or were there other true churches already established Paul was competing with.



According to D&C Section 1 it is Jesus’ “organization” and not Joseph Smith’s. Read it for yourself!



The Holy Ghost has touched many. However, according to the gospel in the NT one must have one with authority to bestow the gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands.

Scripture Verse:

KJV Acts 8: 17

[17] “Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.

Acts 19:6

[6] “And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them…”

Acts 8:20

[20] “But Peter said unto him, Thy money perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money.”

What do you mean by “indwelt by the Holy Spirit?” Do you mean you have the Holy Ghost as a constant guide and companion? Do you become “indwelt by the Holy Spirit” by merely reading and studying scripture? What do/did you do to become “indwelt by the Holy Spirit?”

Have you received the gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands by one with Jesus’ authority to bestow such a gift after baptism by one with Jesus’ authority to baptize (Keys) as indicated several times in scripture?



My honest opinion is that Jesus, as prophesied in the OT, has set His hand a second time to gather His people and Has set up His kingdom on earth in these latter days as prophesied by the Lord’s Prophets Daniel, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Malachi, etc, that you and others are either ignoring, misunderstanding or confusing.

What did it look like when Jesus set his hand the first time to gather His people?!!!

He began the gathering with His gospel, His Apostles with His authority (Keys), His Church, His baptism, His laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost. Jesus used His Church organization as the vehicle to gather His people the FIRST TIME He set His hand.

Here is a huge clue…“Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.(Hebrews 13:8)

You should prayerfully and sincerely read D&C Section 1…That is my honest opinion.

the fallacy of elephant-hurling, or amassing huge quotes supporting his position and throwing them at his opponent as if large number of acontextual quotes would an argument win...

[Cow Poke]

the fallacy of elephant-hurling, or amassing huge quotes supporting his position and throwing them at his opponent as if large number of acontextual quotes would an argument win...

OH, PICK ME!!!! ... What is a post by LDST?


That was for $200, right?

[Bill the Cat]

OH, PICK ME!!!! ... What is a post by LDST?


That was for $200, right?

[LDSTrue]

Originally posted by CP

OH, PICK ME!!!! ... What is a post by LDST?


That was for $200, right?

- - - You are both wrong, do not pass go, do not collect $200, you both lose ‘cause… “For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ…”(KJV 2 Peter 1:16) as He (Jesus D&C Section 1) has set His hand a second time to establish His kingdom on earth in these latter days as prophesied.

All your bellowing about elephants does not change that truth for it is a fact! Time will tell and I know the Lord’s Prophets Daniel, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Malachi and time is on my side!

[Cow Poke]

- - - You are both wrong, do not pass go, do not collect $200

You don't know Jeopardy from Monopoly!

Must be why you confuse D&C with scripture.

How could you POSSIBLY be trusted on Theology?

[Bill the Cat]

- - - You are both wrong, do not pass go, do not collect $200,

It was a Jeopardy refrence, not a Monopoly one.

you both lose ‘cause… “For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ…”(KJV 2 Peter 1:16)

This means that the Apostles themselves... the REAL ones... were not passing stories along. They actually experienced the things they claimed and taught. And they taught monotheism.

as He (Jesus D&C Section 1) has set His hand a second time to establish His kingdom on earth in these latter days as prophesied.

You've been trounced on this verse repeatedly, yet you continue to hurl it at us like it proves your point, when it does no such thing.

All your bellowing about elephants does not change that truth for it is a fact!

So, identifying your debate tactics is now "bellowing"... wow, I see you have great faith in your ignorance.

and I know the Lord’s Prophets Daniel, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Malachi and time is on my side!

No it isn't. Especially since you have told us that you have grandchildren. At your age, your time to repent is getting short and your need to reject the liar Joseph Smith is becoming more urgent. You have believed the lie of polytheism preached by your false church. Wake up and come into the life the real Jesus has for you. Stop relying on your own feelings on what is true and what is not. Let the bible be the final say...

2 Kings 19:15
Hezekiah prayed before YHWH and said, "O YHWH, the God of Israel, who are enthroned above the cherubim, You are the God, You alone, of all the kingdoms of the earth. You have made heaven and earth.