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Thread: Noah: Is this a good movie? Is it good ancient history?

  1. #111
    tWebber robrecht's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RBerman View Post
    That's why I prefer to stick with the Bible, which does not say that death had not fully entered the world until Cain killed Abel. For all we know, many people had already died by that time, to say nothing of animals.
    As I've said a few times already, people who only want to see a movie based solely on the Biblical account of Noah should not see this movie.
    βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
    ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

    אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

  2. #112
    tWebber robrecht's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by robrecht View Post
    OK, I've finally gotten around to looking up some of the references that I was looking for. With respect to the supposedly gnostic Kabbalah theme of Adam and Eve being luminescent spirits. This is a much older motif that is found in Jewish/Christian inter-testamental literature. The earliest occurrence I've been able to track down is actually a midrashic interpretation supposedly based on an aurally indistinguishable textual variant on Gen 3,21 attributed in the Great Midrash on Genesis to a 1st century Torah scroll owned by the great scribe, Rabbi Meir. He says that that a single (silent) letter of the text was different, instead of a silent ayin (ע), the scroll he speaks of had a silent aleph (א). Thus:

    ויעש יהוה אלהים לאדם ולאשתו כתנות עור וילבשם
    ויעש יהוה אלהים לאדם ולאשתו כתנות אור וילבשם


    Though the text would sound exactly the same (in some dialects, including modern Hebrew), the change in letter changes the meaning of 'skin' to 'light':

    And the Lord God made for Adam and his woman tunics of skin [light] and he clothed them.

    This was later understood to be their original clothing of glory prior to their disobedience, and hence we find intertestamental texts such as 3 Baruch 4,16 (cf also Ephraim the Syrian) speaking of Adam being condemned on account of the tree incident and being stripped (literally 'made naked') of the glory of God (τῆς δόξης θεοῦ ἐγυμνώθη)
    http://ocp.tyndale.ca/3-greek-apocalypse-of-baruch#4-4

    This, like much of the celestial Adamic imagery, has messianic implications, ie, the Messiah as the second Adam. It is said in the Pesikta de Rav Kahana that ‘The robes with which God will clothe the Messiah will shine from one end of the world to the other and the Jews will use its light and remark on his majestic clothing.’ Hints of this is already seen both in Q 17,24 (as the lightning flashes and lights up the sky from one side to the other, so will the Son of Man be in his day) and in the synoptic Transfiguration narratives. And the ‘garment of immortality’ (ἔνδυμα τῆς ἀθανασίας), Hist Rech 12,3) that was originally Adam’s prior to the Fall, will once again be ours at the resurrection according to Paul (ἐνδύσασθαι ἀθανασίαν, 1 Cor 15,53-54).
    http://ocp.tyndale.ca/history-of-the-rechabites#12-12

    We see this garment of glory in all the Aramaic Targumim (free midrashic translations from the Hebrew) of Gen 3,21, but in Aramaic the word ‘glory’ does not imply light. Thus it is in this linguistic tradition that we find the other midrashic interpretation of this verse that features more prominently in the movie Noah....
    I came across an earlier source for this tradition of the glory of Adam (כבוד אדם) in 1QH 4,27, which is part of a thanksgiving psalm authored by or modeled upon the Teacher of Righteousness, speaking of how the forgiveness of sins restores the glory of Adam. The manuscript itself is dated paleographically to the end of the first century BCE or the first century CE.
    βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
    ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

    אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

  3. #113
    tWebber Teallaura's Avatar
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    Um, wait - God didn't clothe Adam and Eve until after they had eaten from the Tree - how can 'clothing of light' refer to pre-Fall?


  4. #114
    tWebber robrecht's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teallaura View Post
    Um, wait - God didn't clothe Adam and Eve until after they had eaten from the Tree - how can 'clothing of light' refer to pre-Fall?

    That came later: This was later understood to be their original clothing of glory prior to their disobedience, and hence we find intertestamental texts such as 3 Baruch 4,16 (cf also Ephraim the Syrian) speaking of Adam being condemned on account of the tree incident and being stripped (literally 'made naked') of the glory of God (τῆς δόξης θεοῦ ἐγυμνώθη)
    http://ocp.tyndale.ca/3-greek-apocalypse-of-baruch#4-4
    βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
    ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

    אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

  5. #115
    tWebber Teallaura's Avatar
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    O-kay...

  6. #116
    tWebber robrecht's Avatar
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    I watched a little bit of Noah again last night on Netflix. In Noah's retelling of Genesis 1, the creation of man, the retelling of Genesis 1,26, occurs at 1:26, ie, 1 hour and 26 minutes into the movie. Funny.
    Last edited by robrecht; 08-01-2015 at 07:31 AM.
    βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
    ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

    אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

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