The Creation: Miracle or Magic?

[moreta]

...
I'm asserting that natural law is inseparable from eternal truth. If God throws natural law together on the fly, then truth is not eternal, and is subject to change--on the fly.

And I'm asserting that they are two very different things. So I guess it comes down not so much to semantics as to definitions. And God can change natural law. After all, under normal, natural circustances water drawn from a well or storage pot into a pitcher does not change to the best wine when poured from the pitcher into a glass/goblet/mason jar. If it does, I'd like to have that pitcher. Only I'd prefer Diet Dr. Pepper.

[rogue06]

I equate natural law with truth. Truth does not change, and neither does natural law. To say that natural law did not exist until it was created, would be to say that truth did not exist until it was created. Truth is eternal.

But what if natural law is an expression of truth that wasn't conveyed until God started the Creation process? That way truth exists before being expressed in natural law. Just a thought.

[OtherCheek]

But what if natural law is an expression of truth that wasn't conveyed until God started the Creation process? That way truth exists before being expressed in natural law. Just a thought.

I understand what you are saying. But don't you think that eternal truth precedes our recognition and expression of it?

[Cow Poke]

I understand what you are saying. But don't you think that eternal truth precedes our recognition and expression of it?

If you call it "eternal truth", then the answer has got to be

And since Jesus IS Truth, and HE is eternal....

[OtherCheek]

And I'm asserting that they are two very different things. So I guess it comes down not so much to semantics as to definitions. And God can change natural law. After all, under normal, natural circustances water drawn from a well or storage pot into a pitcher does not change to the best wine when poured from the pitcher into a glass/goblet/mason jar. If it does, I'd like to have that pitcher. Only I'd prefer Diet Dr. Pepper.

Normal circumstances, yes. And sometimes God can implement a higher law in order to move beyond the limitations imposed by a lower law.

Make mine a peach smoothie.

[OtherCheek]

Before God created the world, what good was gravity?

Not much use to us, I guess. But I think God made good use of the law of gravity when he designed the heavens and the earth.

[Cow Poke]

Not much use to us, I guess. But I think God made good use of the law of gravity when he designed the heavens and the earth.

OR He ordered it "to be" like he did light.

Scripture Verse:

Gen 1:3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

[rogue06]

I understand what you are saying. But don't you think that eternal truth precedes our recognition and expression of it?

As CP already pointed out "eternal truth" sort of rigs the question so only one answer is possible. But ignoring that, and if I understand you correctly, I agree that truth can most definitely exist before being recognized as truth by us.

Even the most literal interpretation of the Creation account has man not coming along until near the end of it so there was truth as expressed through natural laws before man even existed much less could recognize them.

But what I mean is that while there is truth, there are different ways in which it can be expressed. And what we call natural laws didn't exist until God created the universe so truth wasn't conveyed through it until God began creating.

IOW, while all natural laws may be truth, not all truth can be seen in natural laws since God established them when He started the Creation process.

As I said, just a thought.

[OtherCheek]

As CP already pointed out "eternal truth" sort of rigs the question so only one answer is possible. But ignoring that, and if I understand you correctly, I agree that truth can most definitely exist before being recognized as truth by us.

Even the most literal interpretation of the Creation account has man not coming along until near the end of it so there was truth as expressed through natural laws before man even existed much less could recognize them.

But what I mean is that while there is truth, there are different ways in which it can be expressed. And what we call natural laws didn't exist until God created the universe so truth wasn't conveyed through it until God began creating.

IOW, while all natural laws may be truth, not all truth can be seen in natural laws since God established them when He started the Creation process.

As I said, just a thought.

OK, Rogue. Thanks. I appreciate your input.

[DesertBerean]

Hmmm....I thought the LDS teaches that Jesus was created? How then can he be considered eternal truth etc.?

You already know we don't see Jesus the same way you do.

[OtherCheek]

Hmmm....I thought the LDS teaches that Jesus was created? How then can he be considered eternal truth etc.?

Because he is aligned with it.

[Cow Poke]

Because he is aligned with it.

OR is it aligned with Him.

[OtherCheek]

OR is it aligned with Him.

If God is unchangeable, then what is the standard by which this is so? Is God his own standard for defining what is or isn't changeable?

[Cow Poke]

If God is unchangeable, then what is the standard by which this is so? Is God his own standard for defining what is or isn't changeable?

That sounds good!

OC -- God is GOD -- why are you trying to limit Him?

[franktalk]

God can regenerate body parts at will. I doubt even in a billion years, that man will be able to do this.

Ye of little faith