Freedom of religion in consitution

[Littlejoe]

4Given....is that you?

[JimL]

I have a question about Freedom of Religion found in the the first amendment. I cannot find anything that supports this idea biblically in the sense that the Lord would be ok with it. The first commandment makes it clear that we do not have the permission to worship as we please. The US constitution says that its just fine to worship any deity you please. I can't honestly support a document that declares this.

I agree, the bible does not allow for freedom of religion, or expression of same, at least not without punishment, it professes a theocratic view of government, but the U.S. is not a theocratic state and in fact the Constitution in this regard was expressly written in opposition to this biblical view.

So what I'm wondering is if there any concerted effort to remove this from the constitution?

No, the U.S. is founded upon the idea that all men are free to think and believe what they will.

[jinpark]

Then maybe you should clarify what you said.

There's no reason to get snitty and play this "if you are a follower of Christ" nonsense. I am.

I dislike hipocrits and so does the Lord. You were the first to use this nonsense Anyone can see that you were the first to imply that I'm not a follower of Christ because I sit around waiting for a law to establish something. I wanted to see if you liked it being judged that way.



You can say anything you want! That's part of the "freedom of speech". Should we ONLY allow freedom of speech to people who claim to be "followers of Christ?"

I'm saying that I'm a whole lot more concerned about what the Bible says, and it is my guide. If you're not happy with the US Constitution, how would you survive in Cold War Russia?

If God gave you a law that you must not worship any God but him would you retort with a similar quip? "God, I know you all perfect, but doesn't that sound a little like Soviet Russia?" Well God did give you this law to follow. Anyone human law that implies there is a natural freedom to worship as you deem appropriate is not from God. The other people replying will not find any case law to support anything contrary to this unless it was proved the practice of the religion infringed on anothers rights.

[Cow Poke]

I dislike hipocrits and so does the Lord. You were the first to use this nonsense Anyone can see that you were the first to imply that I'm not a follower of Christ because I sit around waiting for a law to establish something. I wanted to see if you liked it being judged that way.

Absolutely wrong. I'm trying to understand your beef. You're not making much sense. If you want to get into a peeing contest, you can have this thread all to yourself - I was just trying to understand your position.

If God gave you a law that you must not worship any God but him would you retort with a similar quip? "God, I know you all perfect, but doesn't that sound a little like Soviet Russia?"

I've had to make that decision before - I have been arrested for obeying God and disobeying man's law. I really don't need your accusations of hypocrisy. And if you're going to call somebody a hypocrite, at LEAST learn how to SPELL it. I think all you want to do is argue.

Well God did give you this law to follow.

And I have. And I have paid with the loss of my job and a whole bunch of legal costs, which is why I answered the OP -- I was trying to understand your position.

Anyone human law that implies there is a natural freedom to worship as you deem appropriate is not from God. The other people replying will not find any case law to support anything contrary to this unless it was proved the practice of the religion infringed on anothers rights.

You don't like answering questions -- you seem more interested in making false accusations.

[jinpark]

The commandments were part of the law of Israel. Did the Jews see it as too restrictive for the Lord to require them to only follow him. It seems to me if we made the first two commandments the law of the land here there would be many pseudo Christians who would see declaring Gods law king is immoral and two soviet like. Of course the liberal atheists would hate it. But there is no way a Christian can show that following Gods rules can be anything but the right thing to do. We prevent murder because its gods law and its in the best interest of everyone to not be murdered. Following the first commandment is one of the essential base requirements to guarantee that don't suffer something infinitely worse than being murdered. I'd rather be murdered and have no other god but the Lord, than to live to an 3000 years but worship some other god.

[jinpark]

[QUOTE=CP;3211405]Absolutely wrong. I'm trying to understand your beef. You're not making much sense. If you want to get into a peeing contest, you can have this thread all to yourself - I was just trying to understand your position.

I've had to make that decision before - I have been arrested for obeying God and disobeying man's law. I really don't need your accusations of hypocrisy. And if you're going to call somebody a hypocrite, at LEAST learn how to SPELL it. I think all you want to do is argue.

I know how to spell hypocrite. I've spelled it correctly hundreds of times before. I've also spelled it incorrectly in times of quickly typing. I also drop words sometimes and try to go back and insert them. So I messed it up this time. If I said "Yahwee is Lord" it doesn't subtract from the truth of the statement because I misspelled Yahweh. I showed 5 different people your statement about about following Christ and they all agreed that if it was used the person was suggesting someone to not be a follower of Christ. I dare you to ask 10 different people if that sentence structure implies such a thing. If you do so without biasing their response by telling them who said it or on what side you are on, I bet they will agree that it is suggesting that the recipient is not a follower of Christ.

And I have. And I have paid with the loss of my job and a whole bunch of legal costs, which is why I answered
the OP -- I was trying to understand your position.

There is certainly something more to this that you are not telling. Even the bastion of atheistic causes, the ACLU, would take your case for free if it found you to be fired solely because you are following the Lord as a Christian. Nonetheless, this is what happens the US moves away from the laws of God and starts establishing non biblical freedoms such as abortion, sexuality, and religion. Were all of Gods 10 commandments the law of the land, I doubt you would have lost your job.

[JimL]

The commandments were part of the law of Israel. Did the Jews see it as too restrictive for the Lord to require them to only follow him.

They sure did, and many of them went off to worship other Gods instead and were then in many cases murdered for it in contradiction to said Gods hypocritical law "thou shalt not kill.

It seems to me if we made the first two commandments the law of the land here there would be many pseudo Christians who would see declaring Gods law king is immoral and two soviet like.

I agree, there are many christians, pseudo if you like, who do not hold fast to the biblical view of a tyrannous God. They would rather live in a free society where they are free to think as they like without fear of punishment.

Of course the liberal atheists would hate it.

I certainly would.

But there is no way a Christian can show that following Gods rules can be anything but the right thing to do.

No one is stopping christians from doing what they believe to be right. Besides if you are forced to believe and to do that which you don't believe, where is the good in that?

We prevent murder because its gods law and its in the best interest of everyone to not be murdered. Following the first commandment is one of the essential base requirements to guarantee that don't suffer something infinitely worse than being murdered. I'd rather be murdered and have no other god but the Lord, than to live to an 3000 years but worship some other god.

Well imho the bible is hypocritical in regards to the commandment against murder, as God himself commands the israelites to murder without mercy.

[jinpark]

I agree, the bible does not allow for freedom of religion, or expression of same, at least not without punishment, it professes a theocratic view of government, but the U.S. is not a theocratic state and in fact the Constitution in this regard was expressly written in opposition to this biblical view.

No, the U.S. is founded upon the idea that all men are free to think and believe what they will.

I agree thats what it is founded on. And I think that idea is flawed. I think it should be a theocratic state. The lord did not intend for us to believe what we will and suggest we are fully free to do so like it does so like these human laws suggest. I was force fed all this trash about tolerance of other religions in my youth but now I don't see my savior being tolerant of competing Gods or religions. I can't find God suggesting you could come to him through another god. That is very very liberal theology.

[Cow Poke]

I showed 5 different people your statement about about following Christ and they all agreed that if it was used the person was suggesting someone to not be a follower of Christ.

You need to widen your circle of acquaintances.

[Cow Poke]

I agree thats what it is founded on. And I think that idea is flawed. I think it should be a theocratic state.

Yeah, it works really well in Muslim nations!

The lord did not intend for us to believe what we will and suggest we are fully free to do so like it does so like these human laws suggest. I was force fed all this trash about tolerance of other religions in my youth but now I don't see my savior being tolerant of competing Gods or religions.

Perhaps you can start your own inquisition. Do you have a horse and a big sword?

I can't find God suggesting you could come to him through another god. That is very very liberal theology.

Jesus clearly said no man comes to the Father except through Him. You're good with THAT, yes?

And I prefer being obedient to Christ, preaching the gospel, and relying on the Power of the Holy Spirit to convince and convict. I'm kinda old fashioned that way.

[jinpark]

They sure did, and many of them went off to worship other Gods instead and were then in many cases murdered for it in contradiction to said Gods hypocritical law "thou shalt not kill.

I mean Jews as a whole. You will always have exceptions. I'm sure they were dealt with.

I agree, there are many christians, pseudo if you like, who do not hold fast to the biblical view of a tyrannous God. They would rather live in a free society where they are free to think as they like without fear of punishment.

In a sense I agree. I think many Christians get comfortable with all of the freedoms in this country. They come to believe its just and moral to allow people the freedom to chose what religion they wish to follow. You cannot , however, make this fit into what I consider one of the most important commandments. Even if you accept Jesus died for sins, if you still worship another god above the lord, you will not find yourself in good standing with the Lord. No where is in the bible does God suggest that worshiping other gods is not worthy of punishment.

I certainly would.

You would get over it.

No one is stopping christians from doing what they believe to be right. Besides if you are forced to believe and to do that which you don't believe, where is the good in that?

You aren't forced to believe. That would violate your free will. You will just be punished for not believing when given ample evidence. If we send a Wiccan to prison for violating the first commandment, there is nothing we can do to force him to worship the Lord once in prison. Its just like the knowledge of being sent to Hell if you don't worship the Lord doesn't affect your free will.

[jinpark]

Jesus clearly said no man comes to the Father except through Him. You're good with THAT, yes

Agreed if you are trying to get to the Father. But you aren't going to get through him if you worship someone else than his father, such as Vishnu. Are you good with that?

[phaedrus]

I'm getting very distinct weird vibes about all this. Is it only me?

[JimL]

I agree thats what it is founded on. And I think that idea is flawed.

I think that you mean that God thinks it is a flawed idea, you don't have or want the right to think anything.

I think it should be a theocratic state.

Obviously.

The lord did not intend for us to believe what we will and suggest we are fully free to do so like it does so like these human laws suggest.

This is true, it would be heresy from your point of view to be free to think for yourself.

I was force fed all this trash about tolerance of other religions in my youth but now I don't see my savior being tolerant of competing Gods or religions. I can't find God suggesting you could come to him through another god. That is very very liberal theology.

Very true, the biblical God certainly does not tolerate the freedom of belief in other Gods.

[Catholicity]

I'm getting very distinct weird vibes about all this. Is it only me?

No phaed, something seems off. I don't know what but something isn't quite right....