Freedom of religion in consitution

[Catholicity]

Do you honestly believe that a true Christ centered theocracy would burn people at the stake?

No we have two of them in existence in this world. America isn't one of them. DO you really want American politicians in charge of your religion? I mean hey, Abortion is legal right? Look my point is, you don't have what you want, but you do have freedom. Deal with it

[jinpark]

Ya I don't get this either. My understanding of the 1st A is mostly to make sure the Feds keep out of citizens business which it may or may not have been effective at doing.

Look up all of the case law on the interpretation of the 1st amendment. It is vast. I think you will find it is much more than your current understanding and I mean no disrespect by stating that. You might try starting here.. http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/data/c...nt01/05.html#1

[Cow Poke]

I want to be clear.

I was asking for THAT at the very beginning of the thread when you got all snarky.

[Xru]

I understand and appreciate the link:)

I was refering to the 1st A as written. I don't know what was going through the founding father's brains about this. When I look at the link you so graciously provided, I'm sure that the meaning of the 1st have been developed far beyond the original.

If so, you are probably just an atheist in disguise or at least should start to receive funding from them.

On the other had, to be honest, I think this type of comment you make to another post is counter productive in debate as it only detracts from any other arguments you make. It impresses me as highly inflammatory and assumes much more about the poster than you could possibly know.

I understand you have strong feelings about this issue, but . . . accusing someone of being a closet atheist is . . . well, intemperate, IMHO anyway.

All the best.

[Teallaura]

Does the first commandment guarantee you the freedom to worship as you chose without punishment? This is the point. Just like freedoms in the constitution take precedent over state laws when they conflict, Gods law should take precedent over for constitutional law when they conflict. Answer the question, would God be ok with a law that expressely gives you the freedom to worship as you please. Inherit with that freedom is the idea that its not worthy of punishment like treason or murder.

God allows us to choose to follow Him or not - and essentially the First Amendment recognizes that freedom of will. Were the US a true theocracy, the answer would be no. But the US isn't Israel and doesn't serve the same purpose. I don't see why God would object to that freedom of will being allowed by a non-theocracy and a nation other than Israel. The problem would be in Christians buying into the equity of religion idea merely because we keep the government out of the sanctuary.

[jinpark]

No we have two of them in existence in this world. America isn't one of them. DO you really want American politicians in charge of your religion? I mean hey, Abortion is legal right? Look my point is, you don't have what you want, but you do have freedom. Deal with it

Lets take the vatican. Explain what makes them a true Christ centered theocracy and then explain what makes them worthy of scorn and a bad example of a theocracy.

Are you asking if I want leaders that aren't truly christian on either side because they are easily bought and paid for? Thats what you would have to be asking me if we are talking about our current set of choices. I'm not naive enough to believe the libs in congress would or could implement something like this.. That would nuts of me to think that way. A theocracy is not a democracy though. In a theocracy these politicians would be replaced with people that are certified as following Christ to the best of their abilities. Punishments for hypocrisy and corruption would be dealt with harsh punishment. I understand that the world I wish for something that will be very difficult to achieve because people adore their constitutional freedoms to worship or not worship any god they want.

[Catholicity]

dood are you from the quiverfull movement?

[Xru]

God allows us to choose to follow Him or not - and essentially the First Amendment recognizes that freedom of will.

Very nice point . . . however, I would expect that jinpark will protest that the case law has developed the 1st A far beyond the original meaning.

Best regards.

[Sparko]

I want to be clear. There is nothing inherently wrong with "forcing someone to have a prayer time is just as bad as stopping them from having a prayer time. " as you originally claimed correct? Public schools also don't force people to enrole their children else children would not be allowed to attend private schools. But as with public and private schools alike you are forced to be there when your parents enrole you. You would probably enjoy the punishment for truancy in some private schools a lot less than in public schools. You can pretend somehow, by proxy, that the parents are forcing the children into mandatory prayer, but you would only be doing so as to not have to admit that private schools do something you consider bad. I see nothing consistent from you that makes it clear that forcing someone to have a prayer time is bad. Especially when you will subjectively apply it.

eh????? are you on drugs or what?

Think of it this way. How would I like a democracy in which the popular vote elected Hamas, a terrorist supporting organization? I would not. However thats just what happened in the real world. If I judge all other democracies based on the failure of this particular democracy to make the right choices I would be wrong. Just as I would be wrong to think a demonstrated evil Islamic theocracy is just as bad as a not yet realized true Christ centered one. One day in the future, when Jesus returns, it will all be a theocracy under him. And you'll be forced to kneel before him. Your enlightenment influenced human notions about freedom to worship as you please and freedom of conscious will fade away. It will no longer matter.

1. You never answered my question.
2. I won't be forced to kneel before Christ, I already do so willingly.
3. You never answered my question.

You also seem to be using the same form of flawed reasoning believed to have used by Satan to reject God. Satan didn't want to be forced to kneel before God as well. He thought he knew better. How about you go argue with God about forcing Satan to kneel before him.

What does having to kneel before God have to do with rewriting the constitution. You realize that medieval europe was a theocracy don't you? You remember how well THAT turned out right? Men don't have the ability to run a perfect theocracy like God does. Men are sinful and have flaws. I don't want some power hungry theocrat telling me how to worship. Do you? What if the theocracy were Branch Davidians?

[Xru]

In a theocracy these politicians would be replaced with people that are certified as following Christ to the best of their abilities.

Who would do the certifying? Just a question, eh.

With all due respect, IMHO, a Christian politician is a politician is a politician. Politicians, IMO, are all lairs to a greater or lesser extent, libs or consv's. They lie either overtly or covertly by omission, IMO. Every darn one, or they don't last past their 1st term.

[Sparko]

As much as I have been accused of being a troll, there sure are an awful lot of using arguments I see atheists use elsewhere being used here. For a catholic you sure present a lot of good reasons for atheists not to be one. Do you honestly believe that a true Christ centered theocracy would burn people at the stake? If so, you are probably just an atheist in disguise or at least should start to receive funding from them. If you don't think a true Christ centered theocracy would burn people at the stake , then my point is made.

How do you ensure that the theocracy is a "true" Christ centered theocracy? that is won't be corrupted by sin like every other theocracy in the past? Even the Israelites couldn't keep their theocracy from becoming corrupt and turning away from God.

I guess we could always put YOU in charge, since you are obviously holier than us and are uncorruptible.

[Cow Poke]

With all due respect, IMHO, a Christian politician is a politician is a politician. Politicians, IMO, are all lairs to a greater or lesser extent, libs or consv's. They lie either overtly or covertly by omission, IMO. Every darn one, or they don't last past their 1st term.

Ah, come on, TD -- tell us how you REALLY feel!

Hunt For Red October

Jeffrey Pelt: Listen, I'm a politician which means I'm a cheat and a liar, and when I'm not kissing babies I'm stealing their lollipops. But it also means I keep my options open.

© source where applicable

[Teallaura]

Very nice point . . . however, I would expect that jinpark will protest that the case law has developed the 1st A far beyond the original meaning.

Best regards.

Thank you. The counter would be pretty obvious - case law can change. So, even if we grant that God might have issue with a particular interpretation, that doesn't mean that God would have a problem with the First Amendment itself. Mind you, I wouldn't concede that at this point - I'd have to see what case law in particular we were discussing.

[jinpark]

I
On the other had, to be honest, I think this type of comment you make to another post is counter productive in debate as it only detracts from any other arguments you make.

But I don't see any other way to interpret it. Can you give me a good reason why a Christian would think a true Christ centered theocracy would naturally tend to burn people at the stake? You have to admit it sounds little like an argument a Christian would be expected to make.. Maybe I was a little harsh in my dichotomy, but I didn't say he was an atheist or should be working for them unless he actually believed that its natural for a true Christian to burn people at the stake. Christ has made it clear that isn't an option.

[Xru]

This discussion is really getting weird. I just feel creepy all over.

Honestly, if somehow, the US was converted to a Christian Theocracy, even though I'm a Christian, I would be one of the 1st at the Barricades with my 12g shotgun.

Unfortunately, jinpark, you would be on the other side:(