Explain the prayer in schools thing to me

[Cow Poke]

Well that's just dumb, and imo an extreme view. I consider myself to be a humanist and don't feel anything like this at all.

There was a lot of this type of animosity back in the 70's and 80's and a LOT of this type of rhetoric. It really wasn't helpful.

[Teallaura]

I live in Australia. I have a reasonable working knowledge of the US system of government including the constitution and in particular the first amendment where it says 'Congress shall make no law ...' about religion. I get that. I also get the Supreme court interprets the constitution in actual case law.

I'm interested in the issue of prayer in public schools (since I was a teacher here) and whether it is forbidden and under what circumstances. Perhaps some of you could enlighten me by answering some of these questions of a specific nature:

1. Can the principal of a public school lead an open school assembly in prayer?

No, not as the law is presently interpreted. The exception might be an invocation at graduation - but it would be iffy.

2. Can a principal of a public school call for a moment of silence at a school assembly?

Yes, that has been upheld - several times. The only issue would be if the moment of silence were a blatant attempt to introduce prayer - but you'd have a heck of a time proving it.

3. Can Christian students form a Christian club (like a chess club) and meet and pray during school lunch times or after school on public school property?

Absolutely. In fact, a school that allows such activities of secular groups but tries to restrict religious ones is looking at a serious lawsuit that they will lose. The Supreme Court has made equal access crystal clear regardless of some ACLU shenanigans.

4. Could Muslim students form a similar club?

Absolutely. Same as above.

5. If a club can be formed could a Christian teacher be involved?

Yes. As long as teachers can be involved in secular clubs they can also be involved in religious clubs. But they have to observe the time restrictions (not using class time, for example).

[Teallaura]

FYI: the 'separation of church and state' is extra-constitutional and has no standing in law. You do see it in decisions from time to time but it isn't itself law. Never was. You also see it in the negative in decisions - i.e. when the court points out that it's extra-constitutional!

The basis for the 'no prayer in schools' thing is a legal fiction that conflates prayer over a loud-speaker with congressional establishment. The Warren Court made several serious errors that have come back to bite multiple times - this is one of them. I fully expect it will be overturned one day - when a more conservative Court decides to get the judicial system out of the interior decorating and micro-managing businesses. Public exposure to religion isn't even remotely the same thing as the US Congress imposing a religion - which is what the Establishment Clause is meant to prevent. As for abuses of classroom time, do we really need the Supreme Court to tell teachers to teach the assigned curriculum? I suspect strongly that vouchers would end that kind of crap a lot faster than any court ever could.

I attended public schools in Alabama in the 70's and early 80's - let's just say the Warren Court didn't have much of an effect on our loud-speakers...

[fm93]

1. Can the principal of a public school lead an open school assembly in prayer?

Under regular circumstances, no. However, my school did have an assembly in which people acted out a dramatization of a popular student dying in a car crash (it was the school's way of telling us not to text while driving). The student didn't really die, of course, but the speakers in the assembly acted as if he had. One of those speakers was the football coach (since that student is on the football team), and he led a prayer as part of the dramatization. The ACLU wasn't summoned, so I'm assuming what he did was legal.

2. Can a principal of a public school call for a moment of silence at a school assembly?

Most principals call for a moment of silence each morning, so I don't see any reason why they couldn't also call for one at an assembly.

3. Can Christian students form a Christian club (like a chess club) and meet and pray during school lunch times or after school on public school property?

Yes. Most schools have one; it's called FCA (short for Fellowship of Christian Athletes). They generally meet in the morning before school.

4. Could Muslim students form a similar club?

Yes. Although it's not as common as FCA, there is a club at some schools called Muslim Student Association. There's also a Jewish Student Union. I assume they operate by the same rules FCA goes by (although I wouldn't know, since I'm not in any of those three clubs).

5. If a club can be formed could a Christian teacher be involved?

Yes.

[phaedrus]

I'm not even asking for a privileged place in schools. I'm talking about tolerance and the notion that all religions should be tolerated in our country. That's fair. And i'm also not even talking about persecution experienced by other brothers and sisters around the world. I wouldn't dream of "cheapening" their situations. Don't put words in my mouth.

It's just that you used the Jesus quote saying you would be hated. I assumed that referred to this issue. Sorry if I misunderstood.

[fm93]

"As long as there are final exams, there will be prayer in school."

Too true.

[Seasanctuary]

If you really do promote freedom of religion, then surely you won't mind if i pray in a public place in the name of Jesus Christ and tell others about Him.

As a private citizen, no — and current laws protect your right to do so. As a government agent acting in that role, yes.

I still haven't heard evidence of systematic infringement of Christian religious liberty. The article linked had a couple of individual government agents acting wrongly, then being corrected as should happen.

If there's a real problem, you should be able to point it out.

[Seasanctuary]

Public exposure to religion isn't even remotely the same thing as the US Congress imposing a religion - which is what the Establishment Clause is meant to prevent.

If, hypothetically, the Establishment Clause doesn't really imply government schools shouldn't indoctrinate schoolchildren with some religious beliefs over others, we should add an amendment to address that. At least, all of us who support religious freedom will call for it.

[Teallaura]

If, hypothetically, the Establishment Clause doesn't really imply government schools shouldn't indoctrinate schoolchildren with some religious beliefs over others, we should add an amendment to address that. At least, all of us who support religious freedom will call for it.

You're also conflating - exposure to public prayer is indoctrination? Not even close - and it really is silly to equate the two. Silly, and dangerous, because eventually people stop believing in the wolf if you holler 'wolf' whenever you see a chihuahua. When the day comes that the indoctrination wolf is genuinely at the door no one will believe it.

If you genuinely support religious freedom then you should also support religious expression in the public sector - because banning public expression is an anathema to freedom of religion and most other freedoms as well. If you support freedom from exposure, as you seem to be implying, then you are in fact supporting censorship, not freedom.

That's another reason conflation is dangerous to liberty - when censorship is mistaken for freedom its not long until all freedoms are at risk.

[Teallaura]

As a private citizen, no — and current laws protect your right to do so. As a government agent acting in that role, yes.

I still haven't heard evidence of systematic infringement of Christian religious liberty. The article linked had a couple of individual government agents acting wrongly, then being corrected as should happen.

If there's a real problem, you should be able to point it out.

http://www.lc.org/

http://www.alliancedefensefund.org/

Knock yourself out. These guys* specialize in such cases.

And let's not be disingenuous with the word 'systemic', okay? I can make that argument against the ACLU if you wanna try it with these guys. There might be a genuine argument regarding scale that you can make but the notion that it's not a problem if it's not 'systemic' is just silly.



*There's another group as well but I can't recall the name.

[justgin]

It's just that you used the Jesus quote saying you would be hated. I assumed that referred to this issue. Sorry if I misunderstood.

It's ok. Lots of people hate Christians but don't necessarily go to extremes in their behavior toward us.

[phaedrus]

It's ok. Lots of people hate Christians but don't necessarily go to extremes in their behavior toward us.

I'm confused. On what basis do you decide people hate Christians if their behaviour does not indicate that they do?

[Catholicity]

I'm confused. On what basis do you decide people hate Christians if their behaviour does not indicate that they do?

well most people don't at least I don't. Although, I have found that in some circles there is a negative attitude toward certain religious groups in general. Take here in the south. We are quiet and do not discuss religion if we are Catholic, Jewish, Pagan, UU, Atheist, Muslim or Other. And it tends to be a result of the prevailing fundamentalist attitude (we are in the Bible belt at least in my area) I once was in a situation at the grocery store where I was ringing up a customer and I had on my crucifix and miraculous medal. The woman asked me about it, and then proceeded to launch in to a full rant and rave about how evil the RCC was. in front of about 15 customers. I told her thank you and have a nice day. She was from a local fundamental church apparently. I was in a rush to get her hurry her out of the store. However it wasn't the first time something like that has happened, I've seen it before. Some (though not all) of the fundamentalists in my area have a persecutory complex it seems (the world is out to get me) then a preach to your neighbor if they aren't the same denomination as you.

[justgin]

I'm confused. On what basis do you decide people hate Christians if their behaviour does not indicate that they do?

I didn't say their behavior didn't indicate their hatred. I said they may not necessarily go to extremes in their behavior toward us.

If they blaspheme Jesus, it's a pretty safe bet that they hate His followers too.

[phaedrus]

I didn't say their behavior didn't indicate their hatred. I said they may not necessarily go to extremes in their behavior toward us.

If they blaspheme Jesus, it's a pretty safe bet that they hate His followers too.

So let's say you don't believe in Krishna. If you say 'That Krishna dude is dumb' does that imply you hate Hindus?